B5-TLT: Not excited yet

I've got some nerve.

This is my first post on a Babylon 5 fansite - and I date to criticize the upcoming Lost Tales dvd. Before the yelling starts, please let me explain. First off - I am, and always have been, a MAYOR fan of Babylon 5. I LOVE my B5 season sets and hold B5 in very high regard.

When the show first aired all those years back, I thought it was ok. A fun diversion. Star trek with an edge. But then the season 1 episode 'Signs and Portents' came along. That hour-long MADE Babylon 5. The first glimpse at the shadow vessel made me fall out of my seat. From that point onward, it became clear that the show had a MASSIVE scale of intergalactic conflict.

When season 5 rolled around, the main threads of the show had reached their logical conclusion. What we got instead, was something on a smaller scale. Still a lot of fun, just not as riveting as before. I don't blame JMS for tying up the Shadow War and the earth civil war in season 4 - the network forced his hand. I do find it disappointing that he chose to focus on smaller stories. Season 5 could have gone out with a bang by focusing on the teep war - But it didn't. He chose smaller stories for season 5, and it just didn't click just quite as well as before. The TV movies were basically more of the same. Self contained stories like Thirdspace and River of Souls just aren't what Babylon 5 is about. Babylon 5 is about the BIG PICTURE.

With The Lost Tales, it appears were getting more self contained stories. Sure, there is the rumor we might get the Teep war later on, in a movie or during the course of TLT's run of dvd´s. But let's consider B5 track record
Babylon 5 - barely made it to season 5.
Crusade - killed off after 13 episodes
Legend of the Rangers - never picked up for series

And after all that, JMS is STILL not focusing on what made B5 great in the first place, and he's still counting on the possibility of paying of the Teep War on a later date.

In short - how excited am I about self contained stories around the 10th anniversary of the Alliance? Not very. I might be wrong. Perhaps TLT signals the start of a new story on a larger scale. But, considering the track record of the B5 franchise - I don't think it's wise to hold out any hopes for a further continuation.

Let the flaming begin!!

Hmm ... so not interested you posted it twice ...

Just a few thoughts.

First off ... I am going to wait to see the disc before I decide whether it is any good or not. Whilst I agree that B5 did big, over-arching stories better than just about anyone else, I also think that A Call to Arms is pretty strong, and that is a self-contained, stand-alone story. Granted it was intended to lead into Crusade, but it was a stand-alone in and of itself.

Likewise In The Beginning.

I also think that the distance between the finish of the show and now gives JMS a clean canvas to work with, and it will be interesting to see how he returns to it.

Couple of other things spring immediately to mind.

First, it is true that B5 had a battle on getting renewed every year (in common with many shows I would guess), but the reason WB were convinced there would be no S5 had nothing to do with the show, just that the TV "network" it was being shown on effectively disappeared. If PTEN had continued, I imagine the foreshortening of the story arcs would not have been required and S5 renewal would have been a more straightforward proposition.

Second, Crusade was actually cancelled before 13 episodes. It was not cancelled because of the strength of those episodes, or their performance in the ratings. It was cancelled because TNT decided they didn't want the show after all and wanted out. This, again was nothing to do with the quality or performance of the show, just that they had discovered that the B5 audience tuned in for B5 and out again at the end (not staying to watch any other TNT shows), whilst TNT's regular viewers tuned out at the start of B5 and in again at the end.

Third, and perhaps more importantly, you seem to aim a criticism at JMS that he is going this route and "not focusing on what made B5 great in the first place". From what we have been told, the option of an ongoing series was never on the table this time around, so it isn't JMS' fault that we don't have one.

WB offered JMS the option of doing a feature film ... something I personally would love to see at some point, teep war or otherwise ... but he declined due to the rawness of the loss of Richard Biggs and Andreas Katsulas, and suggested the direct to DVD anthologies instead.

JMS has always said that he is prepared to consider any offers to play around in the B5 universe, but ultimately WB has to provide the opportunity for anything wider-ranging than what is happening at present. That particular ball is not in JMS' court, and never will be.

If TLT performs well in sales terms who knows what WB might want to do further down the road.

Dangerousapple said:

When season 5 rolled around, the main threads of the show had reached their logical conclusion. What we got instead, was something on a smaller scale. Still a lot of fun, just not as riveting as before. I don't blame JMS for tying up the Shadow War and the earth civil war in season 4 - the network forced his hand. I do find it disappointing that he chose to focus on smaller stories. Season 5 could have gone out with a bang by focusing on the teep war - But it didn't. He chose smaller stories for season 5, and it just didn't click just quite as well as before. The TV movies were basically more of the same. Self contained stories like Thirdspace and River of Souls just aren't what Babylon 5 is about. Babylon 5 is about the BIG PICTURE.

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You're absolutely right...and completely wrong. JMS *couldn't* have caused season 5 to go out with a bang by focusing on the teep war because we'd never seen what *caused* the teep war at that point. You're right that B5 is about the big picture and that means that the whole picture, as much as possible for TV, was shown. We saw Earth's slow slide down Clark's path, we saw the gradual build-up of the Shadow war, we saw Londo slowly slide into darkness and struggle for redemption. What had we been shown through season four that would account for a whole class of people rising in rebellion? Nothing.

There'd been little to show their oppression, certainly nothing that would have caused large numbers of them to rebel. Remember, we did see how the Corps indoctrinated them to only identify with the Corps and to obey the Corps. Early conditioning like that isn't easy to break. Without season 5 to show us how the teeps would react to finding out how they'd been created to be used in a war, it's likely that things would have continued to be tense but not nearly as likely to erupt into a full-blown rebellion.

As for your conviction that B5 is only good when it's dealing with huge arcs, I couldn't disagree more. For me, B5 is about the moments-Delenn riding to the rescue in Severed Dreams, G'Kar pouring Londo's drink back into the bottle, Lennier and Vir meeting at the Zocalo to complain, B5 being boarded and the Narns throwing themselves into harms way, a worker turning off the lights of the station before it exploded. *That's* what B5 is to me, character moments in a massive, complex universe and that's why I'm excited about the new stories.

Jan

Also, regarding S5 being smaller. I really don't think S5 was smaller, it did indeed end with a big bang, IMHO. The problem with S5, was the looming cancellation after S4, forcing JMS to tie everything up so quickly in those final 4 episodes. Had JMS known all along he would have a S5, we would've seen the Teeps coming onto B5 at the end of S4, Ivanova's character would've still been around, and several other S5 arcs would've been started at the end of S4, likewise, the stuff ending at S4 as it is, would've spilled over into S5. B5 season 5 problem was that we had a starting over, rather than a smooth flow, so the first half of S5 feels slower and more like the early part of S1

Dangerousapple said:

In short - how excited am I about self contained stories around the 10th anniversary of the Alliance? Not very. I might be wrong. Perhaps TLT signals the start of a new story on a larger scale. But, considering the track record of the B5 franchise - I don't think it's wise to hold out any hopes for a further continuation.

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Arcs have to be built. The first episode of an arc tends to be boring,
basically
Man1 "Hi, I am Mr Smith"
Man2 "Hello, I am Mr Jones from Delta4"
Man3 "Good bye, I off to Gamma3"
Security man "Stop that man".


JMS problem is to keep the viewers watching until the 4th or 5th episode when the exiting part of the arc arrives.

While I don't wholly agree with the first poster, I do agree that B5 was at it's best when dealing with the over-arching story arc rather than one-off stories, and I must quickly point out, Jan, that all of the moments you mention - arguably bar the Vir/Lennier one - are both important points in the long-running arc, and get their significance from it. If we hadn't been emotionally attached to the turbulent history of the Babylon 5 station and the people whose story (particularly the 5 year arc of the series) on it, would the 'engineer shutting off hte lights' scene have had the same resonance? Without the whole tragic, shifting saga of Londo and G'Kar's relationship, and that of their respective peoples, as laid out over a period of years, would the scene with G'Kar refusing to drink with Londo (and for me the follow up where he changes his mind, and the desperate gratitude on Londo's face is even better) have hit you with quite the same impact?

I agree with all your choices of excellent scenes, but for me this is *why* I think the big story arc works so well, it allows for such incredible character development (as well as apocalyptic universe changing wars and cool stuff like that), and from that perspective, since we're already invested in the characters and their story, I think stuff like TLT will be capable of those great character moments since it has so much to build on and refer back to. This is the kind of thing that The Rangers pilot, for example, didn't have (even with G'Kar there, it was pretty continuity free and his character had little to do with all we'd come to know about G'Kar in the series.)

I also feel that JMS is always going to fall back into writing over-arching arcs, because it *IS* what I feel he does best, and what he really likes. Already the talk of small, individual stand-alone character stories has pretty much dropped out of his stated intentions for TLT, talking instead of huge stories that travel all over the B5 universe in both space and time, and stories that tie heavily into the existing arc (telepath war, for example). I'd guess either there'll be lots of arc connected stuff (In the Beginning-style), or even that he may start some new arcs at some point (with either TLT or something that might grow out of it.) Maybe I'm just boundlessly optimistic. :^)

In some cases I agree that the moment was dependent on the arc, but not in others. I think we'd've reacted to the Narn's heroism, and Delenn's rescue in any situation where characters we cared about faced overwhelming odds.

That's the problem with saying that any one aspect of B5 was the key to it's sucess. It was the gestalt of all of the elements of characterization and arc and effects and any number of other things people could name.

As I said, for *me* it's the character moments so I'm really pumped at the idea of the smaller stories that JMS has described. Other's mileage may differ which is as it should be. I don't even disagree with Raw Bean that JMS might end up incorporating an arc into some of them. I just don't expect anything sweeping or obvious.

Jan

Some interesting points raised by all. There isn't a single poster who said something I can't at least partially agree with.

To further clarify my position: I am VERY interested in TLT - I'm extremely curious with what JMS will come up with. It's just that judging from the story synopsis - this is 'just' another Thirdspace, which doesn’t get me all that excited.

I'd rather see the Telepath war, a resolution to the Drakh plague, or see what happens with Sheridan’s son keeper (I honestly could care less to see more of 'The Hand' from LOTR).

As most of you have pointed out - B5 is about the major stories, but more so it's about the characters. And I agree - but B5 was always at its best when it had the characters react to the major story. My two favourite scene from the series run are the one in which G'kar and Londo are locked in an elevator together, and the look on Londo's face at watching the mass driver attack on Narn. These scenes get their potency from the decades of history that JMS established through the course of the series - and to get more of these kinds of scenes - that would REALLY get me stoked.

You're absolutely right...and completely wrong. JMS *couldn't* have caused season 5 to go out with a bang by focusing on the teep war because we'd never seen what *caused* the teep war at that point.

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It could have been done. You don't necessarily need a whole lot of screen time to establish an epic story. Case in point:
Babylon 5 season 5: 924 minutes
Any epic movie ever made> between 120 and 240 minutes.
If we 'translate' the length of the 4 hour epic movie into an hour-long TV format - that's just 6 episodes. And while the epic movie has reached its resolution at the end of its 4 hours - a TV season is just beginning.

Dangerousapple said:

It could have been done. You don't necessarily need a whole lot of screen time to establish an epic story. Case in point:
Babylon 5 season 5: 924 minutes
Any epic movie ever made> between 120 and 240 minutes.
If we 'translate' the length of the 4 hour epic movie into an hour-long TV format - that's just 6 episodes. And while the epic movie has reached its resolution at the end of its 4 hours - a TV season is just beginning.

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The fact that there were minutes available to do what you wanted is immaterial. B5 isn't an epic movie which generally jumps in in the middle of something and focuses mainly on one character, usually caught up in events s/he didn't cause. It's a history that shows how huge events are initiated by and revolve around individuals. To do as you suggest would have eliminated the entire process of how the Teep War came to be which might have been interesting but would have been an entirely different show.

If we'd jumped directly from season 4 Lyta ("What do you mean? I'm a terrible liar!") to a Lyta who suddenly decided to launch a telepath rebellion, who'd've believed it? Introduce a new character to lead the revolt? That takes time and there's no emotional attachment to that person...you know, like Byron?

We could've eliminated the whole Santiago assasination and Clark ascension and gone directly to the Earth Civil War but would it have meant anything? Ditto the Shadow war, all of those little planetary wars springing out all over weren't necessary, were they? We knew Londo would become Emperor so we didn't need to see his struggles to redeem himself? In other words, I don't think the Telepath War would have been all that interesting without the lead-up to it. For me, wars and battles aren't interesting without knowing why and how they came to be.

Jan

Indeed. Our heroes don't start fighting the Shadows directly until S3. That's two seasons of buildup.

Perhaps I'm wrong about this, but at that time wasn't JMS hoping to make the Telepath war the first big budget Babylon-5 theatrical movie?

I seem to recall talk of how he felt he'd like to repay the actors (as theaterical movies pay a lot more than syndicated television shows can).

If that's true, then the telepath war is the last thing he'd want to mess with much in season 5, other than to possibly set up the movie.

Dangerousapple's post, in itself, I think is a bit contradictory.

He states, and I agree with this, that B5's strength is in its overall arc and story. Yes, there are good character moments and developments during this, but its the overall picture that made the series great.

He also mentioned that the 2 hour Telemovies we have been given we just OK in his opinion, and that Season 5 was just OK, mainly because they were smaller self-contained stories and not what B5 was known for (the big arc).

Finally mentioning that he isn't looking forward to TLT much because he believes it to be smaller self-contained stories.

I'm not going to debate opinions here, but I have to disagree with the thought process. Yes, TLT is probably, time wise, going to amount to about a Telemovie in length with its first release. However the concept behind them, is that all the stories tie together to give a larger overall glimpse or insight into some story in B5verse. While you can't have a large arc without a true series, I do believe that TLT's format is the BEST THING WE HAVE BEEN GIVEN SO FAR to come close to that type of story. Its an Anthology. If successful, when its all said and done, we will have had a "mini series arc" told. Its more than a TV Movie and a Feature Presentation.

So I'm not sure I agree with the logic.

That being said, while I am looking forward to this, I'm also kind of "luke warm" on the concept. Mainly because the overall story of B5 has been told. I'd rather see more about the untold stuff --- Teep War, Crusade, The Hand from Rangers. Although it is possible we might get some of that in TLT, I am hoping that if TLT is successful we end up getting something more down the road.

GaribaldisHair said:

Just a few thoughts.

First off ... I am going to wait to see the disc before I decide whether it is any good or not. Whilst I agree that B5 did big, over-arching stories better than just about anyone else, I also think that A Call to Arms is pretty strong, and that is a self-contained, stand-alone story. Granted it was intended to lead into Crusade, but it was a stand-alone in and of itself.

Likewise In The Beginning.

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Agreed, but the other ones haven't been nearly that good. JMS' strength is in the "long odes." I IMDb-rated ACtA and ItB as 9 and 10 respectively, but all the rest except for TLaDiS have been ~mid-pack, with TLaDiS one step up from the basement floor. IMHO, The River of Souls had that good ol' B5 atmosphere (feel), but seemed like an episode padded out to movie length. Thirdspace felt even thinner, but had great CGI.

GaribaldisHair said:

I also think that the distance between the finish of the show and now gives JMS a clean canvas to work with, and it will be interesting to see how he returns to it.

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That distance is what concerns me. JMS does best when he's fully warmed up, while making a "series" (the US meaning of the word), not coming in cold and making a movie.

On the positive side, though, self-contained stories are better than no stories at all. Also, this gives them the chance to re-build the Babylon 5/Crusade CGI library and sets.


For B5:TLT, I'm giving JMS the benefit of the doubt, and will be reserving two copies of "Voices in the Dark" the first day that I can reserve them.

I enjoyed Thirdspace and River of Souls well enough. I thought A Call To Arms and In The Beginning were fantastic, Thirdspace slightly above River of Souls, but I didn't think any of them were that bad. They're all much more enjoyable than The Gathering in my opinion. IMO, the Rangers pilot is just about the worst b5-related content produced to screen (even below War Zone, Believers and Gray 17), so I won't comment on that one.

I can't believe that it's been 9 years since Season 5 aired/when I started watching the show in reruns on TNT. If only TNT didnt meddle w/ Crusade

TJGuitar85 said:

I enjoyed Thirdspace and River of Souls well enough. I thought A Call To Arms and In The Beginning were fantastic, Thirdspace slightly above River of Souls, but I didn't think any of them were that bad. They're all much more enjoyable than The Gathering in my opinion. IMO, the Rangers pilot is just about the worst b5-related content produced to screen (even below War Zone, Believers and Gray 17), so I won't comment on that one.

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I put The Gathering right in there with Thirdspace and The River of Souls. While some of the acting was bad, the Zocolo aliens reminded me of the bar scene with Obi Wan and Luke from the first Star Wars movie, the makeup on Delenn was very rough, the G'Kar makeup looked especially severe, and the weapons sounded kind of like Pong, it had a lot of redeeming qualities as well (most of Sinclair's scenes*, Londo & G'Kar, Lyta, etc.).

TJGuitar85 said:

If only TNT didnt meddle w/ Crusade

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That was the turning point, when it all started to go irrevocably wrong, when our chances for good B5 TV were pushed off a cliff and have been in free fall for 8 long years.


* Not the "throwing the Battle of the Line medal" scene.

you know, I actually liked some of the 8 Crusade episodes after TNT's interference. And I *LOATHED* one of the original 5 grey uniform episodes (Visitors From Down The Street).


Of the black uniform episodes. the episode with the other technomage (Alwyn?) and The Well of Forever I thought were pretty good.

But thats not really relevant to this topic.

To get back on topic, I do like that Galen is being utilized in The Lost Tales cause he was mostly a Crusade character, aside from ACTA.


As for the Gathering, I agree that Sinclair had a number of good scenes (mostly with Garibaldi), but it just doesn't do much for me. I much prefer Midnight on the Firing Line as a starting point to the series.

Originally Posted by TJGuitar85
I enjoyed Thirdspace and River of Souls well enough. I thought A Call To Arms and In The Beginning were fantastic, Thirdspace slightly above River of Souls, but I didn't think any of them were that bad.


Finally....., I'm so glad some people are standing up for Thirdspace. I still think it was a very well conceived story that opens up endless story possibilities. It sparked my imagination!!! Grant it, they do have simularities to the Shadows but these Thirdspace beings are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay MORE POWERFUL and ANTI-LIFE
IT SELF. Way cool enemy.... Still gives me the tingles.... It's exciting....... I want this to be fleshed out.

***Badapple how could you say Thirdspace is not what Babylon-5 is about? The Shadow war is just one story, (although a incredible one and I would love to see the B-4 'Shadow War' story in the past fleshed out); but there is so many other things to explore. The universe is vast.... Give JMS a chance.... Thanks.***

Well, I liked the story idea/plot of Thirdspace. I just thought Shari Belafonte's portrayal of Trent and her acting in general was really bad. and it kind of brought down the film for me. I don't really know why I feel that way, maybe I should watch it again. :-D

My mom and dad love Shari Belefonte as a person and I myself even remember her being on Battle of the Sexes the sports show when I was young. As for her acting it's okay but she is probably not my first choice.
Although I have great respect for her father Harry Belefonte and his music. I love his Christmas album alot. :angel:

My wife didn't care for the character Trent at all (mainly because when she is under mind control by the Thirdspace beings she kills someone execution style) that didn't sit very well with her. Ohhhhh well.... Someone has to play the bad guy... errr... or gal.