vacantlook
Super Moderator
So, now we're on to TKO.
Refresher Links:
Lurker's Guide Main Page for TKO
Lurker's Guide Extended Synopsis for TKO
Refresher Links:
Lurker's Guide Main Page for TKO
Lurker's Guide Extended Synopsis for TKO
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EpDis: TKO
- Thread starter vacantlook
- Start date
vacantlook
Super Moderator
I can't help it; I just don't like "TKO." Ivanova being sad over her father's death and finally dealing with her emotions over it is good, but it's just not enough for me to like the episode as a whole. Her calling out to her uncle as he's about to leave to instead stay and help her mourn is too melodramatic for me. I do like that Sinclair wants to attend to show his support for Ivanova.
I don't like the mutai plot at all. If it had been less boxingy, I might have liked it more. Also, the cultures of the mutai just feels as cheap-plasticy as the religion of the aliens in "Believers" to me. Of course there is the foreshadowing statement of "Watch your back," but it's not enough for me to get much out of the mutai plot.
I don't like the mutai plot at all. If it had been less boxingy, I might have liked it more. Also, the cultures of the mutai just feels as cheap-plasticy as the religion of the aliens in "Believers" to me. Of course there is the foreshadowing statement of "Watch your back," but it's not enough for me to get much out of the mutai plot.
Ninja_Squirrel
Regular
I don't like sports, especially boxing and other forms of fighting, but oddly, the Mutai doesn't bother me that bad. The part I don't like is that it is never explained exactually which races can participate in the Mutai and what disqualifies Humans. Also, are Humans the only ones disqualified? Is the Mutai a League thing, so Minbari, Centauri, and Narn are also excluded? Or, is it just Humans who can't participate? If so, is it about damaged pride knowing Humans bailed the others out of the Dilgar War? The concept is never fleshed out to my liking.
Also, it would be nice if the alien fighting styles were more...alien.
However, I love Ivanova's subplot. It may not deepen her character in a way that comes up later in the series, but sometimes character development is about coping with the short-term ordeals. I like learning about her family and her religious beliefs. It's the type of thing you would rarely, if ever, see on Star Trek except maybe in an alien culture.
I don't know why I like this episode when most people don't, but I would have to give it a B-.
Also, it would be nice if the alien fighting styles were more...alien.
However, I love Ivanova's subplot. It may not deepen her character in a way that comes up later in the series, but sometimes character development is about coping with the short-term ordeals. I like learning about her family and her religious beliefs. It's the type of thing you would rarely, if ever, see on Star Trek except maybe in an alien culture.
I don't know why I like this episode when most people don't, but I would have to give it a B-.
GKarsEye
Regular
I don't think it would work so well. For one thing, they tried that when GKar was fighting other Narn and it looked retarded. More importantly, how different can fighting really be? Yes, there are different styles, but as long as we're dealing with bipeds who are all really pretty close in size proportionally, they're not going to develop radically different fighting motions.
Actually I think it does, if indirectly. It continues the theme of Ivanova constantly losing people she cares about. It makes the eventual death of Markas that much more poignant.
B5_Obsessed
Regular
Unless you count "Drunken Master".
For all of it's cheese, including the cheesiest human/alien joint thumbs up scene between Garibaldi and Don Stroud's character, I've always liked it. It's probably because my expectations of B5 were not very high in the beginning, so I enjoyed the goofy white-blood-spewing action and Ivanova's jewish angst. What can I say, I'm a sucker for a Rocky IV immitation.
"You imbecile! They cheer for HIM!"
Roc-KY!
Roc-KY!
I mean, SMITH! SMITH!
What I find even more funny about this episode was the fact that they got THEEEE most japanese sounding guy to play Mutah-do (was I even close?), the Mutai Leader.
Even the Ivanova subplot was too heavy-handed for me. I know DiTillio was trying to show that the humans were not universally loved (a Centauri could fight, a human could not) and that Ivanova's career came at a price, but there are ways to handle those issues without hitting me over the head with a sledgehammer. Not quite an out-and-out failure, but one of the least interesting 5 episodes in the series.
Personally I always liked the Mutai part the best. There is something I can't put my finger on with the Ivnova subplot that just doesn't work for me. I think the reason I like the Mutai is because straight forward. Theres a persona on the down and out he wants to fight he gets to fight and draws. there is also the issues of respect for other people and there ideas.
All and all its still only a C but Half is better than none.
All and all its still only a C but Half is better than none.
Shaal Mayan
Regular
Average and mainly for the Ivanova story of greiving for her dad finally.
I liked the Ivanova plot, She is trying to get over her fathers death privatly by working all the time and not giving herself time to think about it.. The Rabbi makes her stop and grieve properley.. It was touching..
However the fighting story was probably the worst sub story I have seen on B5, It was Rocky in space, The old Alien was Mickey and Garabaldi was Apollo Creed, It was a combination of Rocky 2 and Rocky 4, I half expected Smith to shout out ADRIAN.... at the end
However the fighting story was probably the worst sub story I have seen on B5, It was Rocky in space, The old Alien was Mickey and Garabaldi was Apollo Creed, It was a combination of Rocky 2 and Rocky 4, I half expected Smith to shout out ADRIAN.... at the end
Chilli
High Treason Prevention Officer
I generally hate boxing episodes. So no big surprise in my dislike for this one.
What especially bugged me about it though was how it fell into a Star Trek-y trap that the universe is split up into humans and aliens.
"The mutai is not for humans!" .. when it's obvious that it's quite fine for a few gazillion alien races to join.
Maybe it's a league thing, and the Centauri wouldn't be allowed in either, for example. But not once did they mention it. It was always just "not for humans", as if humans would be anything but random alien species #783 for the mutai-do.
What especially bugged me about it though was how it fell into a Star Trek-y trap that the universe is split up into humans and aliens.
"The mutai is not for humans!" .. when it's obvious that it's quite fine for a few gazillion alien races to join.
Maybe it's a league thing, and the Centauri wouldn't be allowed in either, for example. But not once did they mention it. It was always just "not for humans", as if humans would be anything but random alien species #783 for the mutai-do.
Jade Jaguar
Regular
Humans were 'new,' upstarts, and had no knowledge, of or respect for the traditions involved. That is why they were not allowed. Although we never saw it, that could apply to other species as well. We only see a few species competing. I doubt it would apply to the Centauri, but perhaps. I guess we'll never know, unless JMS decides to make a series about the Mutai Doh.
Chilli
High Treason Prevention Officer
One can hope not
It's just something that bugs me me about so many Sci-Fi genres .. how aliens from any culture will always treat humans as "the normal" guys, as opposed to a random alien species - which, of course, humans SHOULD be to any alien race in a unvierse where there are X races.
Take Star Trek, for example. Spock is half human, half Vulcan. He grew up on Vulcan, and identifies himself as Vulcan. Yet, he refers to himself as "half Human and half alien". It just makes no sense - he should be seeing himself as "half Vulcan and half alien"
Babylon 5 was extremely good about this, in general. This is the one time over the run of the series that my pet peeve got petted.
Yes, other explenations are quite plausible, that races need to go through rites to get to join the mutai, or god knows what. But this was never introduces. We just saw "The mutai is not for you humans! It is for us aliens!"
It's just something that bugs me me about so many Sci-Fi genres .. how aliens from any culture will always treat humans as "the normal" guys, as opposed to a random alien species - which, of course, humans SHOULD be to any alien race in a unvierse where there are X races.
Take Star Trek, for example. Spock is half human, half Vulcan. He grew up on Vulcan, and identifies himself as Vulcan. Yet, he refers to himself as "half Human and half alien". It just makes no sense - he should be seeing himself as "half Vulcan and half alien"
Babylon 5 was extremely good about this, in general. This is the one time over the run of the series that my pet peeve got petted.
Yes, other explenations are quite plausible, that races need to go through rites to get to join the mutai, or god knows what. But this was never introduces. We just saw "The mutai is not for you humans! It is for us aliens!"
Jade Jaguar
Regular
This is a lot like sumo was in Japan. They were very reluctant to accept non-Japanese competitors, but no longer. I think the current champ is Mongolian. They are mad at him for not keeping tradition.
crazyhorse
Anarchist
It made me think of Bloodsport actually with the same this competition is not for you attitude.
As for him being refused entry at the beginning it was hardly surprising considering his attitude and big mouth.Was this done to show Humans general lack of respect for aliens?Clarke played on this later in the series.
As I understood it Humans were also one of the weaker races when it came to physical strength.Was it not shown that female Minbari had more strength by far than your strong Human?
It also seems to me that the other races seem to have been in space nearly a thousand years and resent the new boys pushing there way around the block.Considering they are new to space the Humans do seem to have a big political influence and a powerful military one.A certain amount of specism would be expected anyway and the Human Race would still be fighting to be accepted in many ways.
I didn't mind this episode at all,in fact one of the things about B5 was that I liked it all,well apart from the bits where Byron was in it.It opened up the rest of the universe a little more and made it a little richer.
Ivanova was,as usual,nice to watch as well.
I'd say a B
As for him being refused entry at the beginning it was hardly surprising considering his attitude and big mouth.Was this done to show Humans general lack of respect for aliens?Clarke played on this later in the series.
As I understood it Humans were also one of the weaker races when it came to physical strength.Was it not shown that female Minbari had more strength by far than your strong Human?
It also seems to me that the other races seem to have been in space nearly a thousand years and resent the new boys pushing there way around the block.Considering they are new to space the Humans do seem to have a big political influence and a powerful military one.A certain amount of specism would be expected anyway and the Human Race would still be fighting to be accepted in many ways.
I didn't mind this episode at all,in fact one of the things about B5 was that I liked it all,well apart from the bits where Byron was in it.It opened up the rest of the universe a little more and made it a little richer.
Ivanova was,as usual,nice to watch as well.
I'd say a B
Mutai Sho-Rin
Member
This is the episode that sold the show to me. Both arcs worked for me and all of the characters just jelled. I still get choked up when Ivanova recites the mourning prayer - and I'm not Jewish. I guess my username is sort of a give away.
