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EpDis: Messages From Earth
- Thread starter vacantlook
- Start date
vacantlook
Super Moderator
I love the meeting with Dr Kirkish. Marcus leading her to the meeting in slow motion with the wardrum music going is rather tense to me. The way that she, now in a position to tell someone important what she saw regarding the Shadows, but how she almost cracks before being able to get any words out is excellently performed. And the whole telling of the story of the Shadow ship on Mars is rather unsettling; it's perfect for the Shadows.
Shaal Mayan
Regular
Excellant the beginning of the start of the very best b5 episodes the slow march to the separation to the EA.Seeing the shadows over mars definate *shivers*
Elric
Regular
This was very nearly an A for me, but I'm reserving the A votes for the real "wow factor" episodes. If I could, I would give it a B+++.
A great ep, and is part of the lead up to Shattered Dreams. I think this is the point where B5 really starts to shine (even more so than certain eps from season 2).
When I first watched B5, I had seen a few eps from earlier seasons, but this was where I really started to get hooked.
A great ep, and is part of the lead up to Shattered Dreams. I think this is the point where B5 really starts to shine (even more so than certain eps from season 2).
When I first watched B5, I had seen a few eps from earlier seasons, but this was where I really started to get hooked.
darth_librarian
Regular
The slightly naff trek photon torpedo acting aside (they never quite managed it as well as the trek team) this was great, really great. Cool effects and a whole Lovecraftian/ Frankenstein look at the shadow ships. Forms part of an amazing three episode story, probably may favourite bit of season three (all of which is pretty amazing...)
Estelyn
Regular
This episode is chockful of interesting stuff! I like seeing the direction G'Kar is taking, and his comments about no distractions and the benefit of silence are great.
I too took note of the martial drums in several scenes - we heard them an episode earlier in a humorous context (Ivanova bringing "back" the roses to Marcus), now they feel ominous in the scene with Dr. Kirkish and when Sheridan and Delenn leave the station for what could have been their last fight.
Some interesting camera and light work - G'Kar's head moving back into the shadow when Garibaldi's visit ends, the slow motion camera going past each member of the conspiracy when Dr. Kirkish is there, to mention only a couple.
The Night Watch liason scares me - he really believes in what EarthGov is doing, and that kind of self-righteous person is extremely difficult to handle. When he says that watching people on the security cameras is feeling like God, we can see some of the motivation that drives him.
In contrast, Zack's increasing discomfort with NightWatch and its policies is becoming very obvious. Lots of arc-relevant elements in this episode!
I too took note of the martial drums in several scenes - we heard them an episode earlier in a humorous context (Ivanova bringing "back" the roses to Marcus), now they feel ominous in the scene with Dr. Kirkish and when Sheridan and Delenn leave the station for what could have been their last fight.
Some interesting camera and light work - G'Kar's head moving back into the shadow when Garibaldi's visit ends, the slow motion camera going past each member of the conspiracy when Dr. Kirkish is there, to mention only a couple.
The Night Watch liason scares me - he really believes in what EarthGov is doing, and that kind of self-righteous person is extremely difficult to handle. When he says that watching people on the security cameras is feeling like God, we can see some of the motivation that drives him.
In contrast, Zack's increasing discomfort with NightWatch and its policies is becoming very obvious. Lots of arc-relevant elements in this episode!
Alioth
Regular
Makes you wonder what they were up to, circa 1000 years ago and the last Shadow War, regarding the then-non-spacefaring humans. They seemed to have some kind of base there (and on Ganymede), just as they had a base on an isolated island of the Narn homeworld long before that race became spacefaring. Were one or both of these footholds (on Narn and Human doorsteps) used for operations to manipulate these primitive races, or just for strategic position in the war itself?
And as for why those ships were left behind (there may have not been bases and these vessels somehow crashed or were disabled and downed on these worlds, but it happening twice in the Sol System seems too coincidental--unless actual battles were taking place there), I would imagine it was to tempt humans with further technology (and their influence) once they were sufficiently advanced enough to find them, and follow them to Z'Ha'Dum. (And humans happened to be the first ones there to "wake them up"--I wonder if they had left ships for other races to find, and humans got there first.)
Last edited:
RW7427
Super Moderator
I don't remember the episode, but I do remember G'Kar talking about how the Shadows had a base on one of the southern continents on Narn. He said, "They took little interest in us". That to me doesn't sound like the Shadows were manipulating the pre-spacefaring Narns. I can only assume the same was true for the Humans. It sounds as if those bases were just for strategic purposes of some kind.
vacantlook
Super Moderator
"Matters Of Honor", first episode of season three; I just watched that one the other day.
I can't remember for certain, but didn't Delenn at some point in some episode or another say that the Shadows hid their ships on various planets and the like in order to keep a low profile for a while. Because of their philosophy, the Shadows come out every now and then to kick over all the anthills and then return to a state of dormancy for a while, only to begin to stretch forth again millenia later.
Alioth
Regular
I was thinking very covertly--like having Morden-like agents (natives of the planet they might abduct and "program") approach certain leaders of the day and do favors or otherwise influence them. We know the Drazi came up with their "green and purple" contest before they were spacefaring, and suspect it was a Shadow influence, so if we suspect this we're acknowledging they're not necessarily above leaving nonspacefaring primitives alone (and we know the Vorlons aren't either). To pre-scientific societies they could manufacture "supernatural" phenomena as means of manipulation of such peoples.
Only thing is, I can't think of particularly significant events that happened in Human society (at least Western) in the 1200s... but maybe there was a little thing or two that led to a big thing, and such would make a fascinating story. As for the Narns, I don't know if it's ever mentioned when they turned on the telepaths that emerged in their population--but that would certainly be something the Shadows had interest in. Maybe they planted a meme that got it started--although suspicion of mind-readers is probably pretty natural anyway.
Alioth
Regular
D'oh! Turns out that question was answered in "Ship of Tears", a few episodes later. Don't know how I missed that the first time. Although the nature of what happened, in G'Quon's words, was kind of cryptic. Were the "mindwalkers" killed "unto their children, and children's children" by the Shadows directly, or through other Narns (I got that latter impression somehow from an earlier episode)? I'll have to look back again and get the exact quote from the Book of G'Quon, but apparently what happened to them did happen during the last Shadow War.
Lennier's Tears
Regular
Great arc episode! Lots of very exciting Shadow stuff, trouble with Earth getting REALLY serious. Good stuff!
I have no response to the question in the last post on this thread. I don't know the details of what happened to the Narn telepaths. But, I haven't read any of the B5 novels or comics, so there's rather a lot of the backstory that I don't know at all. Perhaps someone else will know!
Comments on the episode:
The breakfast scene at the beginning: It's fun and entertaining and a good segue to the Marcus fighting scene. I do have a question about it. Bacon and eggs are hard to get on Babylon 5? Later in this episode Sheridan says it's a 2-day jump to Earth space. That doesn't seem SO long that you can't get eggs ... Is it just that people don't eat that sort of thing much in the 23rd century, and thus it's hard to come by?
I like newly enlightened G'Kar in his prison cell. The religious-y music that plays on the closeup of his writing is a nice touch.
I like all the scenes with Dr. Kirkish. The slow motion and music and such works really well with that meeting room scene. The flashback scenes with the Shadow ships on Mars are pretty chilling. Once again we find out that Interplanetary Expeditions is shady as hell*.
That scene with Sheridan taking off his Earth Alliance pin and staring at it are really well done. It illustrates well what he must be feeling.
That blond-haired Night Watch guy is super creepy. I agree with Estelyn above that his comment about feeling like a god, watching all those people on the security monitors tells us much about why he's an excited participant in the Night Watch program.
The White Star scenes: Something going on with the camera angles here. The command chair looks pretty far from all the other consoles, and there appears to be a console practically in the hallway, when Sheridan walks by it on his way to get some sleep.
The scenes with Sheridan and Delenn on the Minbari beds is a nice buildup to their later relationship. I like Sheridan talking about the sound of rain, and missing his father.
I always like everything White Star. Some excellent action sequences here. Sheridan tricks another Shadow ship. I like how they sort of crumple when they are destroyed, consistent with the whole "spider" theme they have going on.
Of course it had to be the Agamemnon that confronted the White Star. For Sheridan, that's not just "one of his own", it's his own ship! This is a great bit, where he can't decide what to do, and this time it's Delenn with the clever plan.
I enjoy Marcus' chart at the end I get the impression he's not just well-educated in English literature, he seems to know his Earth history pretty well too, using the Ottoman Empire as a model. Who would think to do THAT?
[The following is a total side note]
* Dr. Kirkish says that the goal of Interplanetary Expeditions is to use archaeology in order to find "new" technology. That seems to be a pretty established idea in the Babylon 5 universe's 23rd century, not many people seem to think there's anything wrong with that basic idea, it's just IPX's shadiness that they have a problem with. That idea makes me pretty sad, but I guess it makes sense, considering humankind was at the brink of extinction just a decade before. I imagine many people would be in favor of using all scientific research to put Earth in a better position relative to other races.
There are ethical medical doctors in the Babylon 5 universe, as we have seen with Dr. Franklin's refusal to hand over his notes on the Minbari, even during the Minbari war. Ethical archaeologists, though ... a bit harder to find. Dr. Kirkish is the first and only "good" archaeologist we get to see on B5. Although the fact that she chose to work for IPX is questionable, but then this isn't the post-capitalist utopia of Star Trek, so I suppose an archaeologist has got to make a living any way they can ...
All the other archaeologists we see on B5 are "bad guys". It's a major plot point in "Infection", and both "The River of Souls" and "Thirdspace". [There's also a tiny archaeology story element in "Soul Mates", with the Centauri artifact Matt Stoner is selling, which ends up severely injuring Londo. Matt Stoner mentions his selling the artifact is perfectly legal because he acquired it in a documented archaeological dig and has all the paperwork. That seems to be a thing that is normal and acceptable in the B5 universe, so that doesn't make him a bad guy for THAT reason, I suppose.]
This isn't necessarily anything to do with the B5 story, as the way in which the B5 archaeologists are bad guys is much the same as the way archaeologists are bad guys in ALL of fiction. Fictional archaeologists are pretty consistently villainous. Not in that they are plotting great evil, but mostly they are so caught up in their own interests, on the hunt for fame or riches, that they end up doing unethical stuff that endangers everyone around them. Of course that's a lot easier to do in fiction than in real life, because of the abundance of curses, demons, aliens, and any other evil thing you can think of. Real life archaeology is rather more boring.
Anyway, I'm obviously a bit hung up on how archaeology is portrayed in fiction. It does have an effect on real world archaeology.
I'll stop talking now
I have no response to the question in the last post on this thread. I don't know the details of what happened to the Narn telepaths. But, I haven't read any of the B5 novels or comics, so there's rather a lot of the backstory that I don't know at all. Perhaps someone else will know!
Comments on the episode:
The breakfast scene at the beginning: It's fun and entertaining and a good segue to the Marcus fighting scene. I do have a question about it. Bacon and eggs are hard to get on Babylon 5? Later in this episode Sheridan says it's a 2-day jump to Earth space. That doesn't seem SO long that you can't get eggs ... Is it just that people don't eat that sort of thing much in the 23rd century, and thus it's hard to come by?
I like newly enlightened G'Kar in his prison cell. The religious-y music that plays on the closeup of his writing is a nice touch.
I like all the scenes with Dr. Kirkish. The slow motion and music and such works really well with that meeting room scene. The flashback scenes with the Shadow ships on Mars are pretty chilling. Once again we find out that Interplanetary Expeditions is shady as hell*.
That scene with Sheridan taking off his Earth Alliance pin and staring at it are really well done. It illustrates well what he must be feeling.
That blond-haired Night Watch guy is super creepy. I agree with Estelyn above that his comment about feeling like a god, watching all those people on the security monitors tells us much about why he's an excited participant in the Night Watch program.
The White Star scenes: Something going on with the camera angles here. The command chair looks pretty far from all the other consoles, and there appears to be a console practically in the hallway, when Sheridan walks by it on his way to get some sleep.
The scenes with Sheridan and Delenn on the Minbari beds is a nice buildup to their later relationship. I like Sheridan talking about the sound of rain, and missing his father.
I always like everything White Star. Some excellent action sequences here. Sheridan tricks another Shadow ship. I like how they sort of crumple when they are destroyed, consistent with the whole "spider" theme they have going on.
Of course it had to be the Agamemnon that confronted the White Star. For Sheridan, that's not just "one of his own", it's his own ship! This is a great bit, where he can't decide what to do, and this time it's Delenn with the clever plan.
I enjoy Marcus' chart at the end
I get the impression he's not just well-educated in English literature, he seems to know his Earth history pretty well too, using the Ottoman Empire as a model. Who would think to do THAT? [The following is a total side note]
* Dr. Kirkish says that the goal of Interplanetary Expeditions is to use archaeology in order to find "new" technology. That seems to be a pretty established idea in the Babylon 5 universe's 23rd century, not many people seem to think there's anything wrong with that basic idea, it's just IPX's shadiness that they have a problem with. That idea makes me pretty sad, but I guess it makes sense, considering humankind was at the brink of extinction just a decade before. I imagine many people would be in favor of using all scientific research to put Earth in a better position relative to other races.
There are ethical medical doctors in the Babylon 5 universe, as we have seen with Dr. Franklin's refusal to hand over his notes on the Minbari, even during the Minbari war. Ethical archaeologists, though ... a bit harder to find. Dr. Kirkish is the first and only "good" archaeologist we get to see on B5. Although the fact that she chose to work for IPX is questionable, but then this isn't the post-capitalist utopia of Star Trek, so I suppose an archaeologist has got to make a living any way they can ...
All the other archaeologists we see on B5 are "bad guys". It's a major plot point in "Infection", and both "The River of Souls" and "Thirdspace". [There's also a tiny archaeology story element in "Soul Mates", with the Centauri artifact Matt Stoner is selling, which ends up severely injuring Londo. Matt Stoner mentions his selling the artifact is perfectly legal because he acquired it in a documented archaeological dig and has all the paperwork. That seems to be a thing that is normal and acceptable in the B5 universe, so that doesn't make him a bad guy for THAT reason, I suppose.]
This isn't necessarily anything to do with the B5 story, as the way in which the B5 archaeologists are bad guys is much the same as the way archaeologists are bad guys in ALL of fiction. Fictional archaeologists are pretty consistently villainous. Not in that they are plotting great evil, but mostly they are so caught up in their own interests, on the hunt for fame or riches, that they end up doing unethical stuff that endangers everyone around them. Of course that's a lot easier to do in fiction than in real life, because of the abundance of curses, demons, aliens, and any other evil thing you can think of. Real life archaeology is rather more boring.
Anyway, I'm obviously a bit hung up on how archaeology is portrayed in fiction. It does have an effect on real world archaeology.
I'll stop talking now
Springer
Regular
Let's not forget that Sheridan's wife was also an archaeologist... okay she turned bad, but that was down to the Shadows! Eilerson in Crusade is more complex. He's greedy and out for himself, and gives the impression that archaeologists just work to make a discovery and get rich, but I have a feeling his character would have changed over time.
Indiana Jones was an archaeologist...
Anyway, I love this episode. The music is some of the best in the series and really helps make the episode. In an interview in SFX (issue 5, I think, I still have it somewhere), Ron Thornton says JMS gave Foundation Imaging the choice of having the battle in space or in Jupiter's atmosphere, and of course Thornton chose Jupiter so they could do something that hadn't been done before. I wonder how Sheridan would have defeated the Shadow ship if it had been in space?
Indiana Jones was an archaeologist...
Anyway, I love this episode. The music is some of the best in the series and really helps make the episode. In an interview in SFX (issue 5, I think, I still have it somewhere), Ron Thornton says JMS gave Foundation Imaging the choice of having the battle in space or in Jupiter's atmosphere, and of course Thornton chose Jupiter so they could do something that hadn't been done before. I wonder how Sheridan would have defeated the Shadow ship if it had been in space?
Lennier's Tears
Regular
I was never quite sure if Anna Sheridan was supposed to be an archaeologist. Is that explicitly mentioned anywhere? I haven't read any books/comics, just going by the stuff in the episodes, but it's entirely possible I missed something. What about Morden? There must have been multiple archaeologists on that ship, but presumably also some other people like geologists, xenobiologists, and who knows what else. (Incidentally, I'm not sure if they are archaeologists as such, or "xenoarchaeologists" or some other made up word like that. It'd be interesting to see how the term would have evolved after alien contact. Presumably at this point the discipline isn't any longer solely concerned with the human past, but with the "sentient past" or some such. In theory, anyway. In practice, we see that IPX and the like are really only interested in getting their hands on some "new" technologies)
I did NOT know that a major character in Crusade was an archaeologist. I am planning on watching that for the first time when I'm done with this current B5 re-watch. This is good to know, now I have some advance warning The character as you describe it sounds similar to the archaeologists in Infection, River of Souls, and Thirdspace.
Indiana Jones is a great example of a fictional archaeologist who is presented as a hero and NOT a bad guy for a change, but he still does a lot of the same things the bad guy archaeologists do in fiction, so he's highly problematic as the "public face" of archaeology. It doesn't prevent me from enjoying an Indiana Jones movie, though. Just like my hangups about this topic don't prevent me from loving Babylon 5 as I do. It does cause me to go off on tangents (not like I don't already have a tendency to do that ... ), and I have strayed pretty far from Messages From Earth in this thread
Anyway, yes, excellent episode
I did NOT know that a major character in Crusade was an archaeologist. I am planning on watching that for the first time when I'm done with this current B5 re-watch. This is good to know, now I have some advance warning
The character as you describe it sounds similar to the archaeologists in Infection, River of Souls, and Thirdspace.Indiana Jones is a great example of a fictional archaeologist who is presented as a hero and NOT a bad guy for a change, but he still does a lot of the same things the bad guy archaeologists do in fiction, so he's highly problematic as the "public face" of archaeology. It doesn't prevent me from enjoying an Indiana Jones movie, though. Just like my hangups about this topic don't prevent me from loving Babylon 5 as I do. It does cause me to go off on tangents (not like I don't already have a tendency to do that ... ), and I have strayed pretty far from Messages From Earth in this thread
Anyway, yes, excellent episode
Springer
Regular
I think Anna's job was mentioned in Revelations and in Thirdspace. The book The Shadow Within might mention Morden's profession, but I can't recall what it was. For some reason I have it in my head he was a linguist?
Eilerson in Crusade is great, probably the best character on the show. But yes, doing it to get rich, not to preserve history.
I'd have loved to have become an archaeologist. Settled for astronomer though
Eilerson in Crusade is great, probably the best character on the show. But yes, doing it to get rich, not to preserve history.
I'd have loved to have become an archaeologist. Settled for astronomer though
Lennier's Tears
Regular
"settled" I suppose all jobs have their ups and downs ...
I just browsed the Babylon 5 Wikia and you are quite right. Mr. (who actually appears to be Dr. ) Morden has a very detailed background. He is indeed an archaeolinguist. Anna, on her page, is described as a "xeno-archaeologist", so I guess that answers my question about terminology. Wouldn't that make Morden a "xeno-archaeolinguist"?
I think this note at the bottom of the page (Morden) explains the Mr/Dr thing:
I clearly have a lot of reading to do!
Dr. Kirkish doesn't appear to have any more background than what we see here in Messages From Earth. I don't think there's anything more about that Mars excavation she was working on. I'd love to learn more about the methods used for such a task, but I suppose that was never actually written Also, why is anyone touching anything with their bare hands int he middle of Martian winter?
I suppose all jobs have their ups and downs ...I just browsed the Babylon 5 Wikia and you are quite right. Mr. (who actually appears to be Dr. ) Morden has a very detailed background. He is indeed an archaeolinguist. Anna, on her page, is described as a "xeno-archaeologist", so I guess that answers my question about terminology. Wouldn't that make Morden a "xeno-archaeolinguist"?
I think this note at the bottom of the page (Morden) explains the Mr/Dr thing:
I clearly have a lot of reading to do!
Dr. Kirkish doesn't appear to have any more background than what we see here in Messages From Earth. I don't think there's anything more about that Mars excavation she was working on. I'd love to learn more about the methods used for such a task, but I suppose that was never actually written
Also, why is anyone touching anything with their bare hands int he middle of Martian winter? 