EpDis: War Without End Part Two

Refresher Links:
Lurker's Guide Main Page for War Without End Part Two
Lurker's Guide Extended Synopsis for War Without End Part Two

Since there's a current thread already going for discussion of the ep, I figured I might as well go ahead and put up the thread for the poll for the ep too even though it was only a couple days ago that I put up the last poll.

For both part one and part two, I say excellent.

I'd say amazing and excellent, considering these two are seasons apart. The original idea that this would occur in season 4, or maybe 5 shows the breadth of the vision, but I personally like the way it resolved the "Sinclair Question" and allowed the story to procede. Damn good, IMHO.

This is what Babylon 5 was all about. And let's face it, confusing details aside, it's the best time-travel twist EVER written for a science fiction show.

This is what Babylon 5 was all about. And let's face it, confusing details aside, it's the best time-travel twist EVER written for a science fiction show.

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I agree 100%. When I first saw this and the Valen mystery was revealed, it was such a great moment. What a great twist

I felt just like Marcus... when the realization dawned on him and he said something to the effect of "Dear god... a Minbari not born of Minbari..."

I just watched these two eps, and I noticed something in part 2 that I never noticed before. In this ep, we see Londo's Keeper on his right shoulder, but in season 5, he gets the Keeper on his left. Is this an inconsistancy or might it be possible that the Keeper can switch sides if it wants to? Anyone have any thoughts?

In this ep, we see Londo's Keeper on his right shoulder, but in season 5, he gets the Keeper on his left.

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Hump? What hump? - Igor, Young Frankenstein

This episode is much better than the first part, but it does suffer a little by having to jam so much plot into the episode, and the way the story got Delenn into that blue suit seemed a little contrived to me.

I wasn't completely surprised that Sinclair would become Valen because there were enough hints throughout the two episodes (could Marcus and Ivanova's conversation be any more obvious and clumsy?), and in previous episodes too (I'd never noticed the significance of the "You speak like a Minbari" line until this episode) but I would bever have guessed that Sinclair would turn himself into a Minbari! That did blow me away. So, if I'm being generous, I give this episode an A-.

It's almost too much awesome to handle, Sinclair and Sheridan together.

Marcus's reaction is priceless, the realization that more or less he's been hanging out with the Minbari Christ-figure.

Time travel is always alittle bit hard to follow. Minor inconstancies aside, considering that time travel stories are almost always garbage, it's nice to see a careful enough job done that the story makes sense. I'm a little sketchy on writing yourself notes from the past, but I think it holds as long as you don't do something ridiculous like be both of your our own parents like that one short story whose name escapes me...

I'm not altogether thrilled with the "I have to do this because I've already done it," logic... but oh well. I could sit here and ponder time travel all post... but none of that takes away from the fact that the episode was excellent.

Yea. I think it is one of my favorite (if not my #1 favorite) of the arc-related/arc-fulfilling stories. It was... fantastic.

Could someone run that thing with the suit by me again? The One(s) and, uh, when and why the suit switched hands so frequently?

But basically, this was the perfect way to "maybe-you-could-almost-see-it-happening" time travel story work. It ain't something you will use every day, or even twice.

As far as the acceptance of his fate, I don't see that as much reasoning it out as it "feeling right". He always "felt" he had some hidden, possibly great, destiny, and you get the impression it always haunted him that he had no real idea what that was. But suddenly, it all came together. And I bet it didn't even take much self-debate before he decided what he "must" do.

Ah, did he make the ultimate sacrifice, or did he embark upon the ultimate adventure? I guess it's all how you look at it.

Anyway, yes, fantastic story, and truthfully the one that I'll always see as being the "real payoff" to the Babylon 5 story arc.

Yep. Great bombshell for referring back and it was something you could guess. I suspected Sinclair was Valen long before Marcus summed it up. It starts you second-guessing every epsiode after that.

Best one for insistent skeptics who admit they were surprised and impressed by the referral back to 2 years ago. Babylon squared wasn't just a standalone episode.

And "the beginning of the story, the middle of the story and the end of the story, that makes up the next great story" kinda puts everyone in their place - that B5 is just one story the universe has to tell...

One thing that always confused me and seemed unresolved was the scene where Sinclair said to Deleen that it still all happened as he remembered

Was he not older then?How did he come back?As a human too.

Or have I just got stuff mixed up again

crazyhorse said:

One thing that always confused me and seemed unresolved was the scene where Sinclair said to Deleen that it still all happened as he remembered

Was he not older then?How did he come back?As a human too.

Or have I just got stuff mixed up again

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You've got stuff mixed up again.

crazyhorse said:

One thing that always confused me and seemed unresolved was the scene where Sinclair said to Deleen that it still all happened as he remembered

Was he not older then?How did he come back?As a human too.

Or have I just got stuff mixed up again

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Sinclair is referring to his attempt to warn Garibaldi to "watch his back" prior to the events of "Chrysalis". If he'd succesfully got word to Garibaldi, Santiago might never have been assassinated and the Earth Civil War might have been delayed or averted. This would mean that Earth would possibly be more actively involved in the coming Shadow War, against the Shadows. Also Catherine Sakai would in all likelihood not have ended up being sucked through the rift in sector 14. However it could have had disastrous implications too:

• Sinclair never becomes Ranger One on Minbar, as he is never reassigned by Clarke.
• Sheridan doesn't become commanding officer of Babylon 5 and never meets Delenn, nor has his critical encounter with Morden.

Losing those two important segments from history would severely interfere with the spacetime continuum which would prevent B4 going back in time, make the Shadows come back twice as strong. Delenn would never be born because Valen never existed... the Minbari culture would be entirely different... and the Earth minbari War probably never happened because the Minbari are both a fundamentally different and weaker culture in that alternative universe.

So it's a pretty good job Sinclair's good intentions failed tocome to fruition.

Obviously prior to Michael O'Hare leaving, that clip was going to reference bigger things that would have made a lot more sense, but you can't have your cake and eat it.

I remember seeing the the One's encounter with Sinclair from first time around... and I always believed that to be Sinclair as well. I thought JMS was making a double reference to Michelangelo's "Creation of Man" and the Oroubouros snake.

I was not thinking of the warning given .As I said I'm probably mistaken and my DVD's are lent out at this moment so I can't check it but I was sure you seen an older Sinclair talking to Deleen at some point.I thought it might of had something to do with his finding of Catherine and just of been another unused story arc.

crazyhorse said:

I was not thinking of the warning given .As I said I'm probably mistaken and my DVD's are lent out at this moment so I can't check it but I was sure you seen an older Sinclair talking to Deleen at some point.I thought it might of had something to do with his finding of Catherine and just of been another unused story arc.

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But he BECOMES older Sinclair in the middle of the episode and they explain why.

Obviously prior to Michael O'Hare leaving, that clip was going to reference bigger things that would have made a lot more sense, but you can't have your cake and eat it.

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I was hoping to get some information on this in Script Book vol. 7. Sadly, it contained none. And neither does the book with "Babylon Squared" in it. I'm waiting for volume 15, but I suppose that the outline will not mention such a small detail. Still, it's such details that I would have liked to see in the Script Books.

I absolutely loved the character of Zatharus. Shame they had to leave him behind. Oh well, at least there are 9 more of him out there.

And he/they're running for President! :beer:

Jan