EpDis: Into The Fire

Refresher Links:
Lurker's Guide Main Page for Into The Fire
Lurker's Guide Extended Synopsis for Into The Fire

I remember gettin halfway into this episode and saying, "I think this going to end tonight." Such a surprise. Of course, we know all the reasons behind the timing, but I still enjyed the episode. I liked that, in the end, the war was stopped not by a bigger gun, but by Sheridan and Delenn thinking their way out of it.

Yeah, I too like that the war was ended by understanding, not by being bigger, stronger, etc than that which they're trying to beat.

Yeah, I too like that the war was ended by understanding, not by being bigger, stronger, etc than that which they're trying to beat.

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I never thought they would win by being stronger, etc. I was convinced that Sheridan's strategy was to pit the Shadows and Vorlons against each other, and try to get out of their way fast. After the Shadows and Vorlons had concluded their battle, hopefully only a few, damaged ones, would remain. Then, Sheridan and his allies, including the few remaining other First Ones would try and clean up what remained. That seemed like a sensible strategy. So, I'll admit a bit of dissappointment at missing out on what might have been the biggest space battle of all sci fi TV. But, intellectually, I found the surprise peaceful ending satisfying.

I liked the story, but I didn't think it was written so well. There's some atrocious dialogue ("Get the hell out our galaxy" indeed) and the Shadows and Vorlons came across as being a bit wimpy in the end, needing Lorien to go with them. Also, I remember reading an interview with the director, Kevin Dobson I think, so said that when the Shadow and Vorlon materialise on the White Star, he had wanted them to materialise as giants outside the ship, like giant greek gods, but JMS said no, which in my view really limited the grandeur of what should have been the most grand and wondrous episode so far.

The battle scenes are really good though, the First One ships are wonderful, and all the scenes on Centauri Prime are gripping. So although I didn't have a problem with the ending to the Shadow War per se, I did with the way the episode was made.

Yeah, I kinda don't like the way the battle ends either. After the Vorlons, Shadows, and the Alliance all bring huge numbers of ships, you'd expect "the mother of all battles", but it's not even half of that. But, I suppose the way that it DOES end is the way that it really should.

Yeah, I kinda don't like the way the battle ends either. After the Vorlons, Shadows, and the Alliance all bring huge numbers of ships, you'd expect "the mother of all battles", but it's not even half of that. But, I suppose the way that it DOES end is the way that it really should.

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See, this is where we've been spoiled by B5. You have to remember, this is not Star Wars, it was a weekly tv show on a limited budget. There was no way they could keep giving us more and more with the time and budget they had, although at times it seemed like they could. As I recall, Z'ha'Dum was being pieced together right up until air time. That's pretty scary.

I liked it, because every other show (Trek) would've made the Alliance win through some Dues Ex Machina "Bigger Gun".

It was funny, even alot of still die hard fans today, back when the episode first aired were complaining about the fact that it was a wimp out that Sheridan "talked" his way out of a fight. You see very few of those comments now from those same fans.

My only criticism is that the action seems to happen so fast. And I guess the imagery they went with when Sheridan and Delenn confronted the Vorlons and Shadows was kinda lame, but then again I don't know what could possibly not have been lame.

But yes, I do absolutely love the way that story arc ended.

As I recall, Z'ha'Dum was being pieced together right up until air time.

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Well, Severed Dreams was delivered for its uplink a matter of minutes before it was due to be transmitted to the affiliate stations.

I thought it might have been Severed Dreams.

Of course, we know all the reasons behind the timing

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Contrary to much misunderstanding "the timing" had almost nothing to do with wrapping the show up in 4 seasons. The Shadow War would have ended, at most, three or four episodes further into S4 than it did - and that's assuming that "Into the Fire" was the two-parter JMS originally envisioned. The plan was always to wrap the war early in S4 and then start dealing with "the duration" - including the two civil wars and the beginnings of the Alliance. (Not to mention the building Teep Crisis, which would have started slowly with the quiet arrival of Bryon's teep colony late in the season, prior to the showdown with Earth, while B5 was still a rogue state.)

Regards,

Joe

I've seen quotes from JMS (don't know that I could find them again now, but that's a different problem) saying that the S4 cliffhanger, assuming that he had known that S5 was a go, would have been Intersections in Real Time. That's only a shift of 4 episodes by the *end* of S4.

A View from the Gallery was orginally envisioned as being an attack by an EFfleet loyal to Clarke during S4.

By the time you allow for that episode and a few partial episodes integrating Byron's group into the community of B5, I figure the Into the Fire could only have been *maybe* 2 episodes later than it turned out to be.

It's always been my understanding, that things would pretty much gone as they did, except it would've been smoother. yron's people would've started arriving late season 4, and the Earth Civil war would've spilled into Season 5 a bit. So, rather than a start and stop, certain elements of season 5 would've started a bit earlier, making other elements of Season 4 last a bit longer, providing a much smoother integration.

First time round I was expecting more.As you watch the series again it does seem a little better although the moralality wins over all theme seems a little weak.After all these years still not really sure over this one although it is one of the few.Some good kick ass action and effects though.

It isn't a question of morality winning over all ... the end of the shadow war is about nothing more complex than the younger races realisation that they can stand on their own two feet and shake off their "parents", who have spent the last several thousand years arguing over how best to bring up the kids.

The whole point, for me, is that neither the Vorlons nor the Shadows are good guys or bad guys, they have just lost sight of what they were here to do - which was guide the younger races until they were big enough and daft enough to stand on their own two feet and then "get the hell out of the galaxy".

Through Sheridan, the younger races now have a strong enough understanding of what is going on to make that happen.

I, for one, am really pleased that it didn't end with the mother of all battles, because having built up the power of these two races over three and a bit seasons it was clear that the younger races could never win by strength of arms and I think it would have been a cop out to do it that way.

I found this way to be unexpected and very satisfying but, obviously, YMMV.

A simple let them fight each other to death and take out what's left over would do to win the war.It was more the childlike manner in which they behaved that annoyed me.I would never of believed that the Shadows would walk away so easily.
Yes I was after the mother of all battles but like real life the hype never matched up

It probably wasn't a real fight (and hardly a fight to death) for some parties involved. More likely a game, throwing some dice over who gets the plastic chips on table. Remote-controlled ships being plastic chips.

The equivalent confrontation on human scale would probably be a computer game with bets of real money (or at most a game of paintball). Some game-players get addicted to games, some who do may be insane to start with. The murder of Kosh Naranek probably involved some who were. Reminds me of a news headline from last year, telling how one guy had stabbed another (with fatal consequences) when the other sold a virtual item they jointly used in an online game.

Kosh Naranek could have probably saved its life by keeping in mind that some could be insane, and being more careful, whatever physical countermeasures that would have meant in Vorlon terms.

In the eyes of First Ones, the game probably wasn't new either. That round only proved new enough to bring some fresh air and sanity into the situation. Perhaps it was the stains of their own blood on the cards. Perhaps it was the opportunity to have a longer talk than usually, with some pieces from the game who knew about its usual passage. Could have reminded of how pointless it would be keep raising stakes.

"Fuck, we played this the last dozen times. They died and it took millions of years for other species to replace them. The faint-hearted say it's ethically doubtful to play with live toys, the stingy say it's inefficient, the demanding say it doesn't develop you. I'm both and I say it's boring too. I'm packing by bags, I've got a hyperspace hike booked to the end of Universe. Fuck this stupid galaxy, I'm outta here."

That might have been the sentiment among some.
Use of real weapons would have been different.

Esclation to real war would have probably meant going at stars and planets with effective tools. The most effective known tool against massive objects without engines, is a microscopic singularity. With First One technology, this kind of stuff would probably be not only feasible but cheap to make.

I would never of believed that the Shadows would walk away so easily.

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Except that Lorien told them then it was time to go. Lorien is the being whom the Shadows thought so highly off so much that they kept coming back to Z'ha'dum all the time.

A simple let them fight each other to death and take out what's left over would do to win the war.

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The way the Shadows and Vorlons had been built up, I don't think that the younger races could have taken what was left, either.

Does anybody really think that *every* single ship in the galaxy (from either the Shadows or the Vorlons) was at that battle?