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EpDis: Atonement
- Thread starter vacantlook
- Start date
Shaal Mayan
Regular
Excelllant epDelenn's past comes back in full view in this one A plus .
Elipsis
Regular
As I was watching this, and saw the Susan Drazi thing... I was thinking
"C"
Then the episode went on a little more and I started thinking, ok... Delenn having conflict with her clan... not bad not bad
"B"
Then we had that huge flashback with Dukat ending in a powerful revelation about Minbari society.
"A"
This episode starts weak, but really turns out to be one of the great ones.
"C"
Then the episode went on a little more and I started thinking, ok... Delenn having conflict with her clan... not bad not bad
"B"
Then we had that huge flashback with Dukat ending in a powerful revelation about Minbari society.
"A"
This episode starts weak, but really turns out to be one of the great ones.
Estelyn
Regular
Interesting - Zack seems to have problems feeling comfortable in a uniform, no matter how it's cut or what material it's made of. He does admit that it has to do with his state of mind.
I'm not sure what purpose the little Ivanova subplot has - is there some reason we need to be reminded of her role in the Drazi society? And why the crutch - again?
The "dreaming" is an interesting concept. Apparently some kind of substance is needed for it to take place - does it open the mind or have a protective function? The guide seems to be a kind of anchor to prevent the subject's getting lost in emotional experiences.
We again see the principle of responsibility. Delenn uses no excuses, blames no one else. Though we have not previously seen her role, it does seem that she has dealt with her guilt. That is not what she needs to experience now. Lennier suggests that she is attempting to atone for past sins against the human race by joining with them now - wishful thinking on his part?
The Minbari self-righteousness and emphasis on racial purity is shown to be without foundation in reality. A whole race is involved in collective repression of a fundamental truth - and that truth is sacrificed for stability even at the end of the episode.
The actor who later plays Byron is a Minbari in this episode - I think I prefer him in that role...
I'm not sure what purpose the little Ivanova subplot has - is there some reason we need to be reminded of her role in the Drazi society? And why the crutch - again?
The "dreaming" is an interesting concept. Apparently some kind of substance is needed for it to take place - does it open the mind or have a protective function? The guide seems to be a kind of anchor to prevent the subject's getting lost in emotional experiences.
We again see the principle of responsibility. Delenn uses no excuses, blames no one else. Though we have not previously seen her role, it does seem that she has dealt with her guilt. That is not what she needs to experience now. Lennier suggests that she is attempting to atone for past sins against the human race by joining with them now - wishful thinking on his part?
The Minbari self-righteousness and emphasis on racial purity is shown to be without foundation in reality. A whole race is involved in collective repression of a fundamental truth - and that truth is sacrificed for stability even at the end of the episode.
The actor who later plays Byron is a Minbari in this episode - I think I prefer him in that role...
Pretty sure it was just supposed to be a cute scene.
Because Drazis have the best parties in all of Grid Epsilon.
Lennier's Tears
Regular
I've always liked this episode. Partially because of the aesthetics ... The Dreaming looks so .. dreamy. But, the story is great, too.
I hadn't really considered it, but I've got to agree with Estelyn on the Ivanova/Drazi story. It's kind of weird, and doesn't really seem to serve a purpose. Is it just there to give the episode some variation or is there some storyline purpose that either I'm not getting, or that ended up not going anywhere?
It's interesting to see the Minbari suppressing individual freedom to that degree, in order to preserve the purity of their race, which doesn't even exist to begin with. Aside from the whole Valen thing, I find it extremely hard to believe that no Minbari has ever had an alien "mate" before. They've been in space for many, many generations.
It's also interesting because it implies that alien interbreeding is possible in the B5 universe, without the help of genetic changes like what Sinclair/Valen and Delenn underwent. That is such a problematic concept. I believe that in the Star Trek universe this is possible because all the sentient races were "seeded". What is the explanation for B5?
Look at Lennier being nothing but loyal and adoring. I like loyal and adoring Lennier. I have paid close attention to all these episodes and there is no hint of anything else in his behavior. I love how we learn here that what Delenn said to Lennier when he first came to B5 "I can't have an aide who will not look up, you'll be forever running into things", is what Dukhat said to her when she became his aide.
There's some good reveals in here still, so far into the main story! We learn that it was Delenn who gave the order to attack the humans, and that she is a descendant of Sinclair/Valen. It all fits and makes sense. I like it.
What a terrible custom, exchanging young people between two parties recently in conflict. Sucks to be that young man or woman, eh? Again, screw your individual freedom, you'll sacrifice yourself for the greater good!
The Mars storyline is starting here .. an exciting new development!
I hadn't really considered it, but I've got to agree with Estelyn on the Ivanova/Drazi story. It's kind of weird, and doesn't really seem to serve a purpose. Is it just there to give the episode some variation or is there some storyline purpose that either I'm not getting, or that ended up not going anywhere?
It's interesting to see the Minbari suppressing individual freedom to that degree, in order to preserve the purity of their race, which doesn't even exist to begin with. Aside from the whole Valen thing, I find it extremely hard to believe that no Minbari has ever had an alien "mate" before. They've been in space for many, many generations.
It's also interesting because it implies that alien interbreeding is possible in the B5 universe, without the help of genetic changes like what Sinclair/Valen and Delenn underwent. That is such a problematic concept. I believe that in the Star Trek universe this is possible because all the sentient races were "seeded". What is the explanation for B5?
Look at Lennier being nothing but loyal and adoring. I like loyal and adoring Lennier. I have paid close attention to all these episodes and there is no hint of anything else in his behavior. I love how we learn here that what Delenn said to Lennier when he first came to B5 "I can't have an aide who will not look up, you'll be forever running into things", is what Dukhat said to her when she became his aide.
There's some good reveals in here still, so far into the main story! We learn that it was Delenn who gave the order to attack the humans, and that she is a descendant of Sinclair/Valen. It all fits and makes sense. I like it.
What a terrible custom, exchanging young people between two parties recently in conflict. Sucks to be that young man or woman, eh? Again, screw your individual freedom, you'll sacrifice yourself for the greater good!
The Mars storyline is starting here .. an exciting new development!
Jan
Regular
Actually, the Minbari have always seemed to me to be all about suppressing individual freedom. The whole thing about being of service being the highest calling and how the acts of one person disgracing a whole clan.
I may have mentioned this upthread so I apologize if that's the case but finding out that Delenn gave the attack order that started the entire Earth/Minbari war makes her accepting 'Arthur's' guilt/Excalibur in "A Late Delivery from Avalon" all the more poignant.
That's well rooted in our own past customs. In the 'olden days', a losing king had to give up a hostage to be raised in the victor's household. Or yes, a marriage between the two warring parties would be arranged. Back then, children were playing pieces as well as heirs.
Jan
Lennier's Tears
Regular
You're right, I didn't mean to imply that this suppressing of individual freedom suddenly came out of nowhere, or isn't consistent with what we've seen of the Minbari before. Just that we haven't seen THAT much of Minbari society, I suppose. Which is also consistent, since they're sorta closed off and secretive. We do know that "the calling of one's heart" is an accepted thing, so there must be some level of freedom, there.
Agreed on the Arthur thing, also. Very fitting!
I have all KINDS of issues with such human customs, also. I just try not to comment on them too much, because my huge rants really turn people off
Agreed on the Arthur thing, also. Very fitting!
I have all KINDS of issues with such human customs, also. I just try not to comment on them too much, because my huge rants really turn people off
Lennier's Tears
Regular
I meant to comment on Delenn's Dreaming outfit, but forgot. There's ceremonial robes involved in this, but Delenn's are the same cut as her half human outfits, not the standard Minbari stuff. Did she have that specially made or what? This made me ask myself something I hadn't thought about before as well: Did her body shape change when she became half human? Or is she just going with half human/half Minbari outfits to match her new self? I quite like her wardrobe.
Springer
Regular
Reiner Schöne is excellent in this – one of the finest guest star performances in the entire series I think. I believe I'm right in thinking that JMS originally planned this as a trilogy of episodes, before he shunted the whole of the Earth civil war arc into this season, and instead moved some of the material he couldn't fit in into In the Beginning.
It is never stated in the series who the new Minbari leader was. I know the comics addressed that a bit, and if memory serves I think the leader was meant to have died, but it seems odd it was never mentioned in the series. Did JMS just drop that angle so he could concentrate on the conflict between the different castes?
It is never stated in the series who the new Minbari leader was. I know the comics addressed that a bit, and if memory serves I think the leader was meant to have died, but it seems odd it was never mentioned in the series. Did JMS just drop that angle so he could concentrate on the conflict between the different castes?
