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EpDis: In The Kingdom Of The Blind
- Thread starter vacantlook
- Start date
Shaal Mayan
Regular
B good
Truth_Seeker
Regular
This episode is a B for me.Byron made his biggest mistake by ordering his people to scan the ambassadors.Until that moment his decisions were good but after that everything was ruined with a single wrong sentence spoken before Council.You can't blackmail entire alien governments that you will reveal their secrets and expect cooperation from them.The only two races responsible for the condition of the telepaths were the Vorlons who created them and the humans who enslaved a part of ther own species.The other races had nothing to do with the problem.The request that Byron made was absurd.I don't think that in the B5 universe there is such a thing as a uninhabited habitable planet.If it's habitable there must be life there.Even if it's not sentient life the telepaths can't simply move there because they will interfere with the evolution on this planet.
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Estelyn
Regular
Both plot elements of this episode are arc related and interesting. And both are moving toward darkness.
The Centauri Prime scenes are fascinating as usual. In this case, when the Regent says "not my decision", he's actually right, not avoiding responsibility. Suspense is kept up till we see how he is controlled at the end. Alas, one handsome, seemingly upright Centauri (Jano) shows up only to be murdered - he should have been wearing a red shirt...
G'Kar actually lightens this part of the story with humour - not only the situational comedy of his position as Londo's bodyguard, but with some good lines - including "It's bad luck to die on an empty stomach"! :rommie:
Like Delenn, I do have some sympathy for the telepaths' wish for a world of their own. It would have been a solution, and I wonder if a way could have been found. But the method Byron and his people used defeated the purpose and alienated them further. Even worse, he no longer has the others under control and reaps the fruits of his antagonistic attitude. He's portrayed the normals as enemies, and now the radical members of the group take that to what they see as a logical conclusion.
Byron withdraws his control, Sheridan withdraws his protection, and the catastrophe takes its course.
(I can't help but compare that with the political situation in a certain north African country right now. The majority wants a peaceful change, but there are always radical elements who utilize protest for their own purposes.)
The Centauri Prime scenes are fascinating as usual. In this case, when the Regent says "not my decision", he's actually right, not avoiding responsibility. Suspense is kept up till we see how he is controlled at the end. Alas, one handsome, seemingly upright Centauri (Jano) shows up only to be murdered - he should have been wearing a red shirt...
G'Kar actually lightens this part of the story with humour - not only the situational comedy of his position as Londo's bodyguard, but with some good lines - including "It's bad luck to die on an empty stomach"! :rommie:
Like Delenn, I do have some sympathy for the telepaths' wish for a world of their own. It would have been a solution, and I wonder if a way could have been found. But the method Byron and his people used defeated the purpose and alienated them further. Even worse, he no longer has the others under control and reaps the fruits of his antagonistic attitude. He's portrayed the normals as enemies, and now the radical members of the group take that to what they see as a logical conclusion.
Byron withdraws his control, Sheridan withdraws his protection, and the catastrophe takes its course.
(I can't help but compare that with the political situation in a certain north African country right now. The majority wants a peaceful change, but there are always radical elements who utilize protest for their own purposes.)
Alioth
Regular
Not so sure of that--the galaxy is a big, big place, with a trillion stars which would include a few billion Sol-like ones. (The show does makes the galaxy seem like a smaller place than it is, granted, which I may cover in a thread somewhere because it's something that does nag at me a bit, being a huge astronomy afficionado.)
Spoiler for The Technomage Trilogy:
There was also the former Markab homeworld.
I also saw their asking for a home world as reasonable given their situation, and while I agree that the blackmail was the wrong tactic (and a gross violation of good faith assumed in their being allowed to inhabit the station), they really weren't given the time of day when they asked for it before presenting the blackmail--which to me sounded like a very reasonable proposal. Maybe he shouldn't have tricked Garibaldi by saying he'd present something else to the council, to gain the audience, but have come right out and said "we need the Alliance's help in finding a permanent place to live". Given the Alliance mission and principles this would I think have been the appropriate entity of which to make the request (and we know Delenn would have thought so too)--but Byron thought the Council would reject the idea out of hand, and it appears he may have been right.
As an aside, I'm not sure why so many here seem to dislike Byron's character (other than perhaps this particular tragic mistake he made). He and his teeps were in a pretty difficult position and I think that, humans that they were, they did pretty much the best they could, as did he--with him having the added burden of his convictions against violence stemming from what the Psi Corps made him do. He came across as somewhat arrogant, but not pathologically so. I understand as a "mundane" myself (
) the fear non-teeps had of the teeps, but the teeps couldn't help what they were, only what they'd do with their gifts. And on that note, the blackmail was a dangerous mistake, but up until that point they certainly weren't exploiting their gifts for advantage over others (and for most of their lives others were exploiting them for their gifts). They largely wanted to be left alone peacefully.Ironic how the Vorlons, those "lords of order", in their creation of telepaths, actually sowed seeds of conflict (which was probably unavoidable) within the affected races. Couldn't they have foreseen that?
----
(vacantlook edit: I fixed the code for the spoiler tag for you. It's easy to forget the = in the opening tag: [ spoiler=] but it is required, and no other words but "spoiler=" and whatever the spoiler is for in the tag.)
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Alioth
Regular
On the Centauri front, knowing (on second viewing, plus having read the Centauri Trilogy) the terrible fate awaiting Londo which the poor Regent was presently enduring, I found the scene of the Regent's exhortation to Londo to "enjoy life, while you have time" and his mournful comment "I'm so sorry" (which Londo had no idea what that meant) to move me almost to tears. The Regent was a kindly old man, and (from what we saw of him before, advising Vir on his reports) probably one of the few real honest men in the Centauri court, although he was a bit flighty. Terrible to see him suffer punishment from Shiv'kala through his keeper for just hinting to Londo what was to come (and really not revealing anything to him). And Londo, after finally starting to become a better man on a path of redemption, would still be damned to the same terrible fate....
Jade Jaguar
Regular
I'm glad to see that someone else has much the same view of Byron and the teeps that I do.
Lennier's Tears
Regular
It only just now occurred to me that Byron's clothes are much more late 20th century-looking than any of the other humans' clothes. I'm guessing he's dressing all retro-like on purpose. I actually quite like his style. Too bad about the arrogance
I really don't know why Byron thought it would be a good idea to invade everyone's thoughts and then blackmail them. Did he really think that was going to work, or was he just tired of asking nicely and getting nowhere?
I always kind of assumed that the telepaths asking for a homeworld of their own wasn't that big a deal, surely there'd be lots of planets they could have ... But Sheridan's reaction in this episode, and the discussion upthread makes me now doubt that. Perhaps there aren't all THAT many planets?
It isn't clear to me if this homeworld is supposed to be for HUMAN telepaths or all telepaths. It's possible that that was discussed in some prior episode, but I have forgotten.
I agree with Truthseeker above (and with Lyta in this episode). It's the Vorlons who created the telepaths. They're long gone. It's the Earth government that screwed over human telepaths. It would be entirely appropriate to be angry at them. But, the league ambassadors? Yes, all the league worlds benefited from the telepaths' sacrifice during the telepath war, but that doesn't really have anything to do with anything ... It would make more sense if these human telepaths were aligned with telepaths from other worlds, who may have legitimate grievances with their own governments. We don't really know much about non-human telepaths. Minbari telepaths seem to be doing pretty well ... Centauri telepaths probably not so much (I'm thinking of those poor women who accompany the emperor, and are essentially born into service). We don't really know what is going on with any non-human telepaths.
To directly answer the question of why I dislike the Byron character (and I've probably said this elsewhere, so apologies for the repetition), it's not that I don't think his cause is just, it's mostly just his "eruditer-than-thou" attitude that really rubs me the wrong way. Also the cult leader stuff skeeves me out. I kind of feel like he did to Lyta what he accuses everyone else of doing to Lyta: He exploited her vulnerability to get with her (that might not be entirely fair to her character, but it still sort of feels that way to me).
As for the Centauri storyline ... it's pretty tense, but also kind of funny with the G'Kar stuff in there. I agree with Alioth that the scenes with Londo and the regent are quite moving. I really love the Regent Virini character. I used to have that line from him from this very episode as my signature on a bunch of things ... Perhaps I should use it here too. "I think we are well beyond pastels now". That about sums it up, right there.
I really like all the Centauri characters in this. They are so ... Centauri. Jano especially seems like he's overacting a bit, but it fits with the Centauri character.
I really don't know why Byron thought it would be a good idea to invade everyone's thoughts and then blackmail them. Did he really think that was going to work, or was he just tired of asking nicely and getting nowhere?
I always kind of assumed that the telepaths asking for a homeworld of their own wasn't that big a deal, surely there'd be lots of planets they could have ... But Sheridan's reaction in this episode, and the discussion upthread makes me now doubt that. Perhaps there aren't all THAT many planets?
It isn't clear to me if this homeworld is supposed to be for HUMAN telepaths or all telepaths. It's possible that that was discussed in some prior episode, but I have forgotten.
I agree with Truthseeker above (and with Lyta in this episode). It's the Vorlons who created the telepaths. They're long gone. It's the Earth government that screwed over human telepaths. It would be entirely appropriate to be angry at them. But, the league ambassadors? Yes, all the league worlds benefited from the telepaths' sacrifice during the telepath war, but that doesn't really have anything to do with anything ... It would make more sense if these human telepaths were aligned with telepaths from other worlds, who may have legitimate grievances with their own governments. We don't really know much about non-human telepaths. Minbari telepaths seem to be doing pretty well ... Centauri telepaths probably not so much (I'm thinking of those poor women who accompany the emperor, and are essentially born into service). We don't really know what is going on with any non-human telepaths.
To directly answer the question of why I dislike the Byron character (and I've probably said this elsewhere, so apologies for the repetition), it's not that I don't think his cause is just, it's mostly just his "eruditer-than-thou" attitude that really rubs me the wrong way. Also the cult leader stuff skeeves me out. I kind of feel like he did to Lyta what he accuses everyone else of doing to Lyta: He exploited her vulnerability to get with her (that might not be entirely fair to her character, but it still sort of feels that way to me).
As for the Centauri storyline ... it's pretty tense, but also kind of funny with the G'Kar stuff in there. I agree with Alioth that the scenes with Londo and the regent are quite moving. I really love the Regent Virini character. I used to have that line from him from this very episode as my signature on a bunch of things ... Perhaps I should use it here too. "I think we are well beyond pastels now". That about sums it up, right there.
I really like all the Centauri characters in this. They are so ... Centauri. Jano especially seems like he's overacting a bit, but it fits with the Centauri character.
Springer
Regular
I haven't seen this episode in a while, so I may be missing some details, but I think part of the obstacle is the politics that are involved. The telepaths are, according to human law, essentially renegades from Earth. Fellow members of the Alliance can't just ignore that that, not even Sheridan if he wants to work more closely with Earth.
Lennier's Tears
Regular
Yes, I bet there would be all kinds of interesting and complicated political issues to deal with ...
I guess we just don't know enough about how citizenship works in the B5 universe (or maybe that actually is discussed in some book I haven't read and it's just that *I* don't know enough about citizenship in the B5 universe) to speculate on the exact details of such a scenario. Presumably there is some way in which a sentient being can acquire citizenship on an alien planet. The human telepaths wouldn't necessarily have to remain citizens of Earth (or whichever [former] Earth colony they were from), although, as you say, under the terms of the Alliance the other Alliance worlds are presumably required to turn over wanted criminals regardless of citizenship. Presumably. But I also feel like membership in the Alliances requires planetary governments to not oppress their own populations (or certain groups within those populations), so maybe there IS something that could be done within the Alliance framework .. I don't know
I'm sure that it is extremely disappointing to lots of people - not just telepaths - that the happy moment of Earth's crooked government being overthrown didn't also include the dismantling of the Psi Corps. Everyone can clearly see that that situation is problematic, but no one wants to do anything about it .. or perhaps they don't know how. It's interesting how the top people in Psi Corps get to be in power by oppressing the telepaths "below" them right along with the mundanes, so there's all these conflicting interests at play. It's what makes Psi Corps such an interesting fictional organisation.
I guess we just don't know enough about how citizenship works in the B5 universe (or maybe that actually is discussed in some book I haven't read and it's just that *I* don't know enough about citizenship in the B5 universe) to speculate on the exact details of such a scenario. Presumably there is some way in which a sentient being can acquire citizenship on an alien planet. The human telepaths wouldn't necessarily have to remain citizens of Earth (or whichever [former] Earth colony they were from), although, as you say, under the terms of the Alliance the other Alliance worlds are presumably required to turn over wanted criminals regardless of citizenship. Presumably. But I also feel like membership in the Alliances requires planetary governments to not oppress their own populations (or certain groups within those populations), so maybe there IS something that could be done within the Alliance framework .. I don't know
I'm sure that it is extremely disappointing to lots of people - not just telepaths - that the happy moment of Earth's crooked government being overthrown didn't also include the dismantling of the Psi Corps. Everyone can clearly see that that situation is problematic, but no one wants to do anything about it .. or perhaps they don't know how. It's interesting how the top people in Psi Corps get to be in power by oppressing the telepaths "below" them right along with the mundanes, so there's all these conflicting interests at play. It's what makes Psi Corps such an interesting fictional organisation.
Talvitar
Member
The dvd set I have shows these episodes in this order: Secrets of the Soul, Day of the Dead, In the Kingdom of the Blind.
I wonder why? Byron comments in the beginning of this episodes, that he learned "yesterday" from Lyta the origin of teeps. So basically 'day of the dead' would have to happened during the night Byron and Lyta had their lovey-dovey session.
Index thread here places Day of the Dead much later.
I probably have to read some more discussions to find out why the order of the episodes is not set in stone.
I basically agree with most everything Lennier's Tears has commented in this thread. What was the bright idea, Byron? The goal was worthy (your own place, safe haven) but basically all the methods were wrong. Isolating yourselves, cherishing every wrong any teep had ever faced, turning on the few people who had actually done a good thing to you, blackmailing entire governments... you really thought it would work?? Just because you were "in the right"?? You think manipulating everyone (incl. Lyta) suddenly is acceptable because some alien race hundreds of years ago did something wrong?
And yes, Byron was speaking for "all teeps" but in reality his gang consisted of humans. I feel that e.g. Minbari teeps were honoured specialists and probably well paid (if the Minbari have such vulgar concepts as salary). Centauri teeps didn't seem all that empowered but then, we only saw Centauri lady-teeps, and Centauri women didn't look very strong, in a social authority kind of way. We never see Centauri woman ministers, for example. So maybe those teeps weren't an aberration but a relative norm?
I must say I didn't feel at all compassionate when some of the teeps got their asses kicked by members of the Alliance (was it the Drazi?). They made their beds, now they lie in it.
That said, I kind of feel sorry for Byron. He's either not that bright, or more messed-up by his own experiences that even he knows, to try to make his point in all the wrong ways. But he probably did try his best (his manipulative, complacent, messiah-complexed best) rather genuinely, and yes, I feel bad seeing him cry when part of his flock leaves. Seeing his dream fall apart like that - must be hard.
It's tough to watch the Centauri storyline Again, I don't remember exactly what will go down, but based on some very vague memory and all your "spoilers" in these threads, nothing good will come out of this. It breaks my heart. I so enjoy watching Londo and G'Kar working together, being the friends they so obviously were meant to be. I've got a bad feeling about this, said someone in a galaxy far, far away...
It's funny (and not funny ha-ha as you well understand) that one of the most memorable and poignant lines in this episode is a seemingly vapid "We are well beyond pastels now". Now, THAT'S great writing.
I wonder why? Byron comments in the beginning of this episodes, that he learned "yesterday" from Lyta the origin of teeps. So basically 'day of the dead' would have to happened during the night Byron and Lyta had their lovey-dovey session.
Index thread here places Day of the Dead much later.
I probably have to read some more discussions to find out why the order of the episodes is not set in stone.
I basically agree with most everything Lennier's Tears has commented in this thread. What was the bright idea, Byron? The goal was worthy (your own place, safe haven) but basically all the methods were wrong. Isolating yourselves, cherishing every wrong any teep had ever faced, turning on the few people who had actually done a good thing to you, blackmailing entire governments... you really thought it would work?? Just because you were "in the right"?? You think manipulating everyone (incl. Lyta) suddenly is acceptable because some alien race hundreds of years ago did something wrong?
And yes, Byron was speaking for "all teeps" but in reality his gang consisted of humans. I feel that e.g. Minbari teeps were honoured specialists and probably well paid (if the Minbari have such vulgar concepts as salary
). Centauri teeps didn't seem all that empowered but then, we only saw Centauri lady-teeps, and Centauri women didn't look very strong, in a social authority kind of way. We never see Centauri woman ministers, for example. So maybe those teeps weren't an aberration but a relative norm?I must say I didn't feel at all compassionate when some of the teeps got their asses kicked by members of the Alliance (was it the Drazi?). They made their beds, now they lie in it.
That said, I kind of feel sorry for Byron. He's either not that bright, or more messed-up by his own experiences that even he knows, to try to make his point in all the wrong ways. But he probably did try his best (his manipulative, complacent, messiah-complexed best) rather genuinely, and yes, I feel bad seeing him cry when part of his flock leaves. Seeing his dream fall apart like that - must be hard.
It's tough to watch the Centauri storyline
Again, I don't remember exactly what will go down, but based on some very vague memory and all your "spoilers" in these threads, nothing good will come out of this. It breaks my heart. I so enjoy watching Londo and G'Kar working together, being the friends they so obviously were meant to be. I've got a bad feeling about this, said someone in a galaxy far, far away...It's funny (and not funny ha-ha as you well understand) that one of the most memorable and poignant lines in this episode is a seemingly vapid "We are well beyond pastels now". Now, THAT'S great writing.
Karajorma
Regular
We've seen male Centauri teeps. Remember one of them removed the block on Brother Edward in Gethsemene and we saw another check Vir in And the Rock Cried Out...
But your point stands that they don't seem to be that empowered.
Lennier's Tears
Regular
I've been getting these emails notifying me of replies to threads, and I logged in for the first time in a few years just to say that the "well beyond pastels now" bit is my most favorite line in all of Babylon 5 ... only to find I kinda already said that in this very thread
Anyway, it's been really fun getting all these thread reply emails, I've been enjoying your posts, Talvitar!
Lennier's Tears
Regular
Welcome back Lennier's Tears. You thought you could escape us, but we're in your email. :devil:
:guffaw:
Thanks, it's good to be back!
