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13 Episodes

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**DONOTDELETE**

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Can anyone give me some insight as to why the Sci Fi Channel will not commission at least 13 episodes of "Legend of the Rangers" to test the waters of the fans and possible other viewers, instead of going on the ratings of the show/pilot. The show is definitely going to pull in over a 1.0 up to a 2.5 to a 3.0! I believe that Warner Bros. and the Sci Fi Channel already know this...and of course, just because the pilot does such good ratings does not necessarily mean that the series will do fine! If the Sci Fi Channel tests the waters with the 13 episodes...and if the ratings are great, they can order the rest to make the 22...and, if the 13 episodes does not go well, then they can pull the plug and just have the 13...and sell it in a video set or something...I am sure it will be easy to show the 13 again...like Crusade...which, of course, the 13 episodes of Crusade was not intending to be 13...You know what I mean...anyways...I was just wondering? Thanks! I believe that the "Legend of the Rangers" only needs an above the 1.0 mark to say that it will be fininally feasible to a go-order...Ahhhhhhhhh!

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Good point. I think a 13 episode commitment wouldn't be out of order. But they seem to be really playing it safe.

I got info that it was looking very positive on getting a commitment, but then again you look at this and the recent press conference, and it does seem they are playing it safe.


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Dreg: "Most beauteous and supremely magnificent one, this dark spell I hold in my worthless and scabby hand is our gift to you, most tingly and wonderful Glorificus..."
Glory: "Please, call me Glory. And get up, looking at you is hurting my neck."
Dreg: "Forgive me, shiny special one. I beg of you to rip out my inadequate tongue."
Glory: "Gimme."
 
It would probably be wiser to see how the movie does first.

I doubt that SciFi won't do a series, even if the movie does badly, but let's let them be comfortable in the whole decision making thing.

If they want to see how the B5LR does, that's fine with me, as long as we get the series.


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"Ambassador Delenn remains indisposed."
"'Indisposed'! She's in a cocoon!"
"Yes?"
Lennier and Londo, Revelations

[This message has been edited by BlackStar (edited July 12, 2001).]
 
I may be speaking before I know all the facts (are you listening, Joseph DeMartino?
wink.gif
), but I think the head honchos over at Sci-Fi may be a little wary of doing something like that.

I mean, the last time a Babylon 5 spinoff looked absolutely certain was with Crusade on TNT, and look where THAT led.

It may be that Sci-Fi doesn't want to tease its audience or dangle any kind of false hope before letting us know, one way or another, if Rangers has any kind of future with them.

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I know nothing about major TV programming. But I can say: Bonnie Hammer is a very successful new promotion. Moving forward while showing caution shows intelligence. As much as I want B5LR "the series" I have to respect this.
cool.gif


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"Why not? Only 1 Human captain has ever survived battle with the Minbari fleet. He is behind me, you are in front of me. If you value your lives, be somewhere else."
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by In Valen's Shadow:
but I think the head honchos over at Sci-Fi may be a little wary of doing something like that.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know. I'm sure they would be eager to do Rangers after BS and others such as Secret Adventures of Jules Verne are gone. Those shows leaving open up slots for our hopeful series.


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"Ambassador Delenn remains indisposed."
"'Indisposed'! She's in a cocoon!"
"Yes?"
Lennier and Londo, Revelations

[This message has been edited by BlackStar (edited July 12, 2001).]
 
Why commit to spending at least $13 million extra dollars of your limited new series budget without seeing not only what the ratings look like, but what kind of feedback you get from existing fans? Yes, they know how the B5 and Crusade reruns have done on "their air" - quite respectably for an older series in its umpteenth rerun on the one hand, and a truncated, under-promoted network "failure" on the other. And yes, they both beat crap like Jules Verne and Black Scorpion in the ratings. But I don't think they beat Farscape or Invisible Man and that's what the new show would have to compete with.

More fans than are watching the reruns are going to have to tune in for a prime time show if it is to have a chance. Don't forget, SFC cancelled J.V. and B.S. so they could replace them with something that would do a lot better than they were, not a few tenths of a ratings point better. It isn't worth spending a million bucks an episode for Rangers if it is going deliver a 0.8 rating, when Black Scorpion was doing a 6.5 and costing them half as much.

Rangers would be a new show. They can't just assume that everyone who liked B5 is going to like it. So they want to see the numbers. They want to read the posts on the newsgroup and their own bulletin board the next day. They probably want to put it in front of test audiences. They'll read the reviews.

Then their new head of programming - who they only hired on Monday, will render his decision. I'll tell you, if I had started a new job on Monday and one of my first decisions was to greenlight a $13 million project right now or put it on hold until January, I'd pick January.
smile.gif


Besides, when they do give the OK, I hope Warner Bros. and JMS hold out for a full 22 episode commitment. I hate half-measures. "Do, or do not. There is no try."

Regards,

Joe

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Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division

joseph-demartino@att.net
 
Thanks for the response to my original question! Much appreciated! Everyone has great points to take into our "speculative considerations" (if that makes any sense)...because, that is really all these boards posts, until the official words are out in the ink! Speculation!
I like how everyone analyzes the hell out of these questions!
Anyways, I still think that the "Legend of the Rangers" is going to do extremely well in the ratings.
Interesting how the Sci Fi Channel went from showing a teaser of "Rangers" on the internet so early on in the game...and then announcing that the show won't air for another 7 months. Strange! Geez! We are definitely looking at approx. 1 year before we start seeing the first episode or should I say episodes 3,4,5,etc (taking into consideration that the pilot "To Live and Die is Starlight is episode 1 & 2 combined for the movie of the week/pilot)...That is a hell of a long time my friends!
Maybe the cast of "Legend of the Rangers" will be showing more age by this point! (Trying to be funny)...I like that fact that the cast is young anyways...it is going in a completely different direction and feel from the old "Babylon 5" except for G'Kar! The G'Kar element is the connective element to the old series which was brilliant to have!
Anyways, I can't wait for the show none the less!


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I might point out that B5LR would have a much better chance of succeeding than B5 ever got.

When B5 first started showing, the setting was totally new, the characters, story, everything was new. There really hadn't been any other major, "great" scifi shows besides Trek up to that point. And most Trek fans were "nervous" about any other scifi show. I know I was. I never bothered to watch B5 when it started airing because I had delusions that most other scifi shows copied Trek.

Now that the setting has been established, the storyline down for the most part, it will be easier to get a B5 story going. SciFi is the right place for the new series, much better, I think, than TNT ever was or could be.

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"Ambassador Delenn remains indisposed."
"'Indisposed'! She's in a cocoon!"
"Yes?"
Lennier and Londo, Revelations
 
Yes I agree with your point about having the success of the old series of "Babylon 5" as a solid foundation for "Legend of the Rangers"...this is a very good element to have for everyone. Especially the cast! They need the research for their roles!
I hope that the Sci Fi Channel takes that into consideration...also, the fact that the Ranger's cast is significantly younger than the original, I believe that the show will capture another market! The younger market...actually, both! Goodlooking people on "Rangers" don't you think?



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Well, about a year passed between the first airing of what was later known as The Gathering (it was originally broadcast simply as Babylon 5) and the series.

B5 was a somewhat different kettle of fish because Warner Bros. originally made a deal for the series, with a two-hour introductory movie. TG wasn't supposed to be a pilot in the strict sense, more like The Emissary or Encounter at Farpoint - the kick-off of a series everybody knows is going to happen.

Babylonian expected that they would start shooting episode one as soon as they finished the pilot, as the two Trek series and now Enterprise have done.

But WB, once they had the film in hand, said, "Well let's not start shooting the series yet. Let's air this first and see what the ratings look like." Then there were more delays and the series didn't start shooting until several months later.

Truth be told, I'm glad. I think JMS improved things greatly during the enforced layoff.

The Rangers movie is much more of a true pilot - a sample of what the series would be like produced so that the network can see what it might be getting. Not terribly surprising, therefore, that they're taking the usual step-at-a-time approach. Which, in fairness, is exactly what they told JMS they might do, and which he told the fans they might. They had two options: approve based on the rough cut, or approve based on the reaction and ratings once it airs.

(They can't all be deal like "TWCBN" where JMS got a commitment to shoot the introductory movie and a full 18 episode first season based on the pilot script alone.
smile.gif
Some shows have needed less than that. More than one sitcom has been sold by a producer walking into an office and saying, "[Famous Comedian] plays a [Amusing Occupation]." And a deal is drawn up and signed on the spot. Very strange business.
smile.gif
)

Regards,

Joe


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Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division

joseph-demartino@att.net
 
So, if the "Legend of the Rangers" is a true pilot as you say, then does this mean that the show could go through many changes? When the pilot airs in January 2002, there will be a significant amount of time between this airing of the pilot and the first episode to start the actual series...meaning that most people would have forgotten alot of the visual elements in terms of continuity...and even the actors (characters) could change. How can production expect an actor to be available in 1 years time without a contract. The chances of some of the actors booked on other commitments (eg-another TV series) is guite great as some of these actors cast in "RANGERS" are working alot! I wonder if that is why nothing is signed?!? I wonder if some of the characters will only be in the pilot or are they also going to be in the series!? I would not know...
Anyways...


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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>When the pilot airs in January 2002, there will be a significant amount of time between this airing of the pilot and the first episode to start the actual series...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

About six months, if the show were to start in June. That's not terribly long. And there's no law that says SFC can't rerun the movie the night the show debuts (if it is in the 10 PM slot) or the night before.

Mind you that if the show starts six months after the movie airs, it will have to start shooting well before the airdate. So the cast is not going to be left "hanging" for very long.

Babylon 5 only lost one actor between the pilot and the start of filming about six months later - Pat Tallman. All the other cast changes were deliberate decisions by the producers and/or the studio.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>The chances of some of the actors booked on other commitments (eg-another TV series) is guite great as some of these actors cast in "RANGERS" are working alot!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Even if all the actors in Rangers (or Crusade for that matter) were busy, working actors (and not all of them are) the odds of them being tied up with another series are small. There are only so many shows in production at any one time, and only so many parts in them. Even most working actors get a lot more guest roles in TV than they do regular series assignments. The odds of most or even any of them having long-term commitments by the time the series is ready to go is really quite small.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>I wonder if that is why nothing is signed?!?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As noted above, the studio usually tries to get actors in a pilot to sign a "first call" option that gives the studio first dibs on their services in case the pilot becomes a series. This option is obviously for a limited time, but I can't imagine that Sci-Fi would be dumb enough to schedule the broadcast of the movie after the option expires.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>So, if the "Legend of the Rangers" is a true pilot as you say, then does this mean that the show could go through many changes? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Almost every series goes through changes between pilot and series. Pilots are a little like out-of-town tryouts for a Broadway play. They are the first chance to "put the show on its feet" and see what works and what doesn't. Then adjustments are made. Take a look at the pilot for Cosby and then the series. The house changes, some of the cast changes and they switched from shooting on tape to shooting on film. The M*A*S*H series pilot features a number of characters who are never seen again, and several who disappear by the end of the first season. There are substantial differences between both Star Trek: TOS pilots and the actual series.

That, as they say, is show biz.
smile.gif


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>I wonder if some of the characters will only be in the pilot or are they also going to be in the series!?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Absolutely. A two hour TV movie may have upwards of 20 or 30 speaking roles. They can't all be in the series. Even most regular episodes of a given series have two or three guest start per episode, so you rarely see anything that is "100% regulars." This pilot will be no exception.

Regards,

Joe

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Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division

joseph-demartino@att.net
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> Some shows have needed less than that. More than one sitcom has been sold by a producer walking into an office and saying, "[Famous Comedian] plays a [Amusing Occupation]." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's exactly what I hate about TV. I mean, there giving a network sitcom to a cable TV cooking show guy, yet B5 has to go through all this shite! Argh!
mad.gif


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> Babylon 5 only lost one actor between the pilot and the start of filming about six months later - Pat Tallman. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was under the impression that they also lost the actress who played the second in command. Wasn't she supposed to be the traitor for the first season? Was I incorrect in assuming that she didn't want to come back, and that is the reason they replaced her w/ Ivanova and mover her part of the arc to other people? Or was it that they were so displeased with her that they were willing to make those story changes to get rid of her?

What is the The Emissary?

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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."
 
I don't know, look what happened the last time we had a 13 episode Babylon 5 spinoff---it died! But that was only because TNT was dumb enough to kill it (Crusade). Since this new Ranger project will be on a channel that seems to have a better appreciation for JMS and Babylon 5, a 13 ep tryout might not be a bad idea.

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Sheridan to Bester:
And I could nail your head to the table, set fire to it, and feed your charred remains to the Pak'ma'ra.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>
What is the The Emissary?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is the pilot for Deep Space Nine


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Thanks Joe! For your detailed answers to my questions! That's great!
Well, all I can say is that I hope that this "Legend of the Rangers" cast members pretty much stays the same. I like that better than shuffling everyone around...When I watch a pilot show, I like to see everyone return when the series goes, as everyone (actors) is now established, and the audience(well, I do) gets kind of attached to the characters...bonding so to speak, and it is fun to see the actors grow into the parts! Just like alot of new shows(eg-"Friends)...I remember when "Friends" first aired...there was alot that was missing with the bonding of the cast, yet, there was enough strong energy and connection present to keep the cast together...alot of potential...and looked what happened to that. It is neat to see the old, old re-runs, and see the progression!
So, on that note, I thank you for your patience in writing out your thoughts and ideas to share with everyone on the posting boards! I greatly appreciate it as I am sure most do!

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>
I was under the impression that they also lost the actress who played the second in command. Wasn't she supposed to be the traitor for the first season? Was I incorrect in assuming that she didn't want to come back, and that is the reason they replaced her w/Ivanova and mover her part of the arc to other people? Or was it that they were so displeased with her that they were willing to make those story changes to get rid of her?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, she was supposed to be the Traitor.

She was replaced because her Career was going in other directions by the time the Series got picked up. For instance she was a major character in the Movie "Joy Luck Club" which was filmed about that same time.

JMS Liked her performance. In fact, it was so good a couple Suits at Warners asked for her to be "toned down" in the pilot. (this was the origin of the rumors about dissatisfaction with her performance). When they re-did the pilot, JMS restored her Original performance because it was Better.

JMS has since said that he regretted listening to the suits responsible, but wasn't used to dealing with them at that level at the time. He's since learned better.

Let me emphasize that none of this was teh reason she didn't come back. As I said above, she was just unavailable during the critical period of casting for the series.




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Yes, I like cats too.
Shall we exchange Recipes?
 
curt:

Well, now we're really getting into the area of guesswork, since I'm not a Teep, and not in line-of-site to Sci-Fi headquarters anyway.
smile.gif


But I can think of some plausible reasons for the different way they are handling different shows. Black Scorpion was entirely funded by Roger Corman, who sold it to TV stations after-the-fact. So the pilot issue didn't even come up.

Most pilots are, indeed, simply sample episodes of a show. Such pilots are almost never seen by the general public as "stand-alone" broadcasts. They go to the network execs. If they like the pilot they commission a series. If there aren't too many changes between the pilot and the actual series, they may air the pilot as part of the regular series run. (As TOS did with the second pilot, "Where No Man Has Gone Before.") So The Chronicle may well have a pilot, which Sci-Fi looked at six months ago, and which will now air as the first episode.

Failed pilots rarely get seen. Sometimes a network will run a failed pilot instead of a rerun of a regular show to try to get a little of its development money back. Many years ago CBS used to run late night "anthology" shows which were entirely made up of failed comedy and drama pilots for each year. But for the most part the ones that don't sell never make it on the air - which means that they're a dead-loss for the studio and the network because it is hard to show a single out-of-context episode of a non-existant series. TV viewers are creatures of habit when it comes to one-hour and half-hour scripted TV shows.

TV movies are typically used as "back-door" pilots because viewers are used to 90 minute (rarely, these days) and two hour "made for TV movies." The advantage to the network and the studio is that they run in normal "movie time slots" and they are stand-alone stories that can be shown again and continue to earn money. Even though they cost two or three times what a sample episode does, they are less of a risk because the finished product is marketable on its own.

Another advantage is that a lot of your costs (set, prop, costume design and construction) get charged to the TV movie, which is almost certain to turn a profit eventually, rather than to a sample episode that may end up a total loss. This is especially important for a Sci-Fi project, where these expenses can be substantial. Doing this also automatically lowers your per episode cost on the series, since these items are available "off-the-shelf" and have already been paid for. Depending on how you do your accounting, you may not even have to amortize them.

So TV movie pilots are a relatively cheap way to test out a concept, without committing yourself to a big cash outlay.

Sci-Fi clearly wants a show in the B5 universe. But what if Rangers doesn't turn out to be that show? What if the audience doesn't respond?

As things stand now SFC can air the TV movie and, if the results are negative, go back to JMS and say, "Here's the data from the viewer polls. Here's what folks liked and didn't like. Is there another story you can do that will be more appealing to the existing fan base?"

Then they can make another TV movie and try again. If that one hits they've got their new show and it cost them about $6 millon to get the successful show they wanted. If they just go with Rangers they spend between $14 and $25 million (guesstimates based on a per-episode budget slightly hire than B5's to allow for inflation) for a show they could end up cancelling after one season or less.

There is also the fact that the Rangers movie (and possible series) will be the work of a brand-new prodution company, team and FX house.

When SFC tried to pick up Crusade it was a going concern, produced by a company with a track record and an in-house FX company doing terrific work. Two years later Netter Digital is gone, Babylonian Productions exists only on paper, they've lost they're L.A. studio space, and the new show is going to be shot in Canada with a lot of new crew members and a different FX company. Prudence suggests that you give the new team a trial run before you fork over tens of millions of dollars to them.

SFC may want to make sure that the new team can deliver a complex film on time and on-budget, just like Babylonian did. That was one of the major accomplishments of B5 let's remember, and one of the things that makes it attractive to a "small" cable outfit like Sci-Fi. The reason they can make money on shows that draw ratings that would get them cancelled on the broadcast networks is their demograhics, and their ability to contain costs.

All of the recent Trek series (and every other post-TOS outer space show) were sold on the basis of a given cost-per-episode and all of them rapidly exceeded that amount, to the point where the studio had to increase the budgets and their per episode deficits to keep the shows going. (Which the producers counted, on, figuring the studio wouldn't cancel a highly-rated show in mid-stream.)

One of the reasons that B5 was such a hard sell for Netter and Straczynksi was that no one in Hollywood believed that they could produce the show for the budget they said they could. Everyone was convinced it would cost at least twice as much, and nobody was willing to risk that much red ink on a non-Trek show, because it had no built-in audience.

In fact, Netter and Straczynski did exactly what they said they would, and produced B5 for around $900,000 per episode, less than half the budget for any of the modern Treks (and a fraction of what a network show of any description costs, including most sitcoms.)

They proved they could do it with Babylonian. The question (in SFC's mind) may be whether or not they can do it in Vancouver with a new crew, after a two-year layoff from the production business. I'm not saying this is the reason SFC wanted a pilot, just that it strikes me as a plausible reason for doing so.

Regards,

Joe

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Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division

joseph-demartino@att.net
 
On the question of Feedback, JMS also took "The Gathering" to several conventions and showed it to about as SciFi oriented an audience as you can Get. The actual target audience. He got feedback from them. Good feedback. He changed a few things based on their comments. And made the show better.

Let's hope SciFi lets him do the same with Rangers after the premiere.

Ghod knows the Conventions would Love it. Particularly if the word got out Ahead of time. It would easily triple (or better) attendance.

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Yes, I like cats too.
Shall we exchange Recipes?
 

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