Speculations of a sleepy Shadow...

**DONOTDELETE** · Oct 9, 2001

A thread dedicated to head-imploding puzzles, chaotic ramblings and 100% pure speculation. Something that the Shadows would like. Let's try to nitpick the trailer until we can conclude something about the movie...

And I'm sure the actors will have a lot of fun seeing us guess.

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1. What is the ship with three protrusions we see taking fire at second 16?

2. Is minister Kafta the individual with barbels shown at second 22?

3. Are the dark irregular-looking ships (second 26) those of the ancient enemy?

4. Is the person firing a PPG-like weapon at second 30 minister Kafta? On the other hand, if it is one of the "ancient enemy" then we may assume they are not First Ones -- rather humanoid.

5.What are the things drifting in space at second 34? Life pods? Beacons? Mines?

6. Is the shot at second 42 the Liandra? And what manouver is it engaged in?

7. What the heck is the thing at second 43? A ship taking off from a planet? A building? A planet-based weapon? To me it looks like a ship...

8. ...and it resembles the ship destroyed at second 45.

9. What makes him yawn so hard? (46)

10. How is Babylon 5 involved? Is the conflict that large?

11. The partly rectangular ship destroyed at second 49 looks like the structure at (43) and the ship destroyed at (45). What is it? The Valen? It would fit the description of a "brick with engines".

12. A Ranger is using a changeling net to impersonate G'Kar at second 51. Or is it G'Kar using a changeling net to look like a Ranger?

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Now about the storyline. My guess would be: it is the year 2265 and the First Ones are presumed gone -- forever. The fact that they are not... may not be entirely due to waiting for Lorien (who has to meet Sheridan for the last time in 2281).

It may be that they are lurking around for other reasons. While the "thirdspace incident" of 2262 (?) may have been a surprise to all, the First Ones probably know of other forces which could threaten all of the younger races. So one could guess that their presence up to "Sleeping in Light" might have served another purpose.

Besides waiting for Lorien to get his business finished, they may have been waiting for such forces to step forward. They would have to see whether the younger races truly are ready -- not only to think on their own, but also to defend themselves.

And hoping to use the opportunity given by the First Ones' apparent departure, some well-forgotten ancient civilisation decided to try -- to start expanding its influence. Although they might have also collided with the Drakh or technomages, it seems that they first encountered the Interstellar Alliance.

Such a theme would provide an interesting starting point for a series -- and it would allow great flexibility in how to continue. The whole theme might be limited to the pilot episode... but it might also continue into Season 1.

In the end the series would be about rebuilding the galaxy... but would any Shadow say no to a fast-paced and chaotic beginning?

:: considers falling asleep but decides to play cards with Delenn's pet Shadow ::

------------------
"We are the universe, trying to figure itself out.
Unfortunately we as software lack any coherent documentation."
-- Delenn

[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited October 08, 2001).]

channe · Oct 9, 2001

Gladly I will go once more into the fray... because I'm just as tired as you!

--

1. The Giant Space Amoebas, of course, which will remain named that way until someone tells me what the Ancient Enemy is called.

2. Pretty sure. JMS said Kafta was going to look... uhm... different. And they're cigarette butts, I tell you.

3. Don't they look like Shadows to you?

4. I'm not too certain. It looks like it might be him, but having only seen him in profile, I think we'll have to take this one and wait for January.

5. I'm too lazy to load the trailer up again.

6. The Liandra is the small greenish-yellow ship with the fins. The one that screams "Look at me, I'm Minbari!" (That could be a filk, you know...)

7. I'm remaining happily clueless. I want to know more about the characters.

8. There are a lot of them.

9. The ancient enemy?

10. I hope so! Maybe an energy drain of some kind?

11. What the heck's the Valen?

12. I bet you that's Dean Marshall's character trying to show Na'Feel what he can do.

----------------

I can't even begin to speculate about the storyline, because I don't know much. I do think, however, that it involves a Captain that's gotten in trouble with the Minbari Grey Council...? An ancient enemy, most likely a First One, that was overlooked? Maybe an ally of the shadows or a race allied with the Drakh?

------------------
Channe, Freelance Writer Extraordinaire and the next JMS.

"I have 15 things to do, all of them annoying... -Ivanova

**DONOTDELETE** · Oct 9, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Don't they look like Shadows to you?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A little. But they don't look like the original Shadow (TM) Battlecrab. A Shadow battlecrab looks spidery with a shimmering & fluid network-like pattern on its surface.

Those look more solid, more like a cross between a dark snowflake and a small Centauri cruiser (Vorchan class).

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>What the heck's the Valen?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If I am to believe what I have read elsewhere, the Valen was a newer/larger Minbari ship initially escorted by the Liandra. Someone mentioned that it transported numerous League/ISA ambassadors and had to transfer them to Liandra when they got into trouble.

This might imply that the Valen and Liandra were sent to investigate or negotiate with the unknown species (who turned out to be rather hostile). I suspect this because of the low probability of a long-forgotten enemy awakening to accidentally find a ship with important passengers.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The Giant Space Amoebas, of course, which will remain named that way until someone tells me what the Ancient Enemy is called.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The "giant space amoeba" looked more conventional and less ancient to me. It actually reminded me of Drakh ships used to deliver their plague into Earth's atmosphere. But looks can be deceiving.

Anyway, something in their looks tells me that this is not the ancient enemy itself, but a third, possibly non-involved party. It is very likely that I am wrong.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>What makes him yawn so hard? -- The ancient enemy?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LoL

Well, in that case I must conclude that this is a truly odd sort of an enemy. Attacking someone by making him yawn is something that even the Vorlons would consider too cruel.

I'm confused.

[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited October 09, 2001).]

Kribu · Oct 9, 2001

I liked the dark irregular (spiky-looking) ships. Too bad they seemed to be blown to pieces.

Ancient enemy... or their minions? The ships looked to small and vulnerable to be a mighty ancient enemy.

As for that yawn... perhaps they've just been up, fighting/trying to survive for a few days in a row and haven't caught much sleep?

Other impressions - I didn't like the Rangers' uniforms at first but started to get used to them with this trailer. They look practical.

What I really liked about the trailer is that it didn't give too much away. Just glimpses - a sense of mystery, a sense of a story with a past, characters that have had it rough (and will have it even rougher), danger, a higher goal - but not really many spoilers.

------------------
"It's animal magnetism. What can I say?"
- G'Kar, A Tragedy of Telepaths
The One and Only True Kribu Board

Delenn_is_a_hotty · Oct 9, 2001

I thought the enemy ships looked a lot like starfish crossed with snowflakes. That ship with the three protrusions, kinda like a bigger uglier greener Excaliber, being destroyed at 16 secs is probably the Valen judging by the green beam weapons, much like Sharlin cruisers and whitestars, emitted at the 27 sec mark.
Oddly enough the rectangular ships swarming around it look like raider fighters.

What the heck is that large crystal structure the Liandra is outrunning at 21 secs? A comet or a CLOSE up of one of those enemy snowflakes. They did appear to have a crystalline texture.
The ship destroying the raider like fighter at 27 secs appears to be the Valen again which was blowing up at 16 secs.
At 29 secs you get a real clear look at the ancient snowflake.
What the heck is that wormhole looking thing at 33 secs?
At 34 secs it looks like the Liandra coming up on the ship that took off from somewhere at 42 secs just to be destroyed by the snowflakes at 45 secs and 49 secs, I think.
At 35 secs we see the Liandra picking up life pods from either the Valen, not likely since the blue nebula background is inconsistent with the red nebula background seen when it was blowing up at 16 secs, or the mystery ship seen taking off from somewhere at 42 secs and then destroyed by snowflakes at 45 and 49 secs.
At 36 secs we get to see what looks like the bridge of the Liandra.
At 37 secs we get to see a snowflake using some sort of distortion beam on what looks like one of those escape pods.
At 39 secs we see Sarah useing the kungfu fire control system.
At 40 secs we see the snowflake fire a purple energy ball at unknown target. And we see David kicking the crap out of someone possibly Kafta.
At 41 secs we see the Liandra chasing something. Possibly that comet like object they were outrunning way back at the 21 sec mark.
At 42 secs we have unknown ship taking off with other unidentifiable ships passing overhead. It gets blown up by snowflakes at 45 and 49 secs.
At 44 secs, no that is not someone who pissed David off and got spaced

, it is Sarah again doing that new fangled combat action. And the Liandra taking on one too many baddies of the snowflake variety.
At 45 secs, I think we covered this part several times already.

At 46 secs we have a VERY tired Ranger. Seriously though it looks like he is being distorted in much the same way that the escape pod was back at the 37 sec mark. Now that would be a nasty weapon for the snowflakes to have. Reminds me a bit of the doomsday weapon from the movie Mystery Men. Or it could be someone having difficulty with a changeling net or any number of things.
Babylon 5 at the 47 sec mark.

David in a hurry at the 48 mark. And Sarah in shock over how big that guys mouth is back at 46 secs.

At 49 secs, I really don't have to say anymore about this other than the snowflakes also appear to have a green energy ball as well and they really hate that ship that took off back at 42 secs.

At 50 secs Kitaro is VERY excited that damned mystery ship got blown away.

And we see, his name escapes me, using a changeling net or other camouflage device to look like a narn. I don't think he looks much like G'Kar but who knows.
At 51 secs we have G'Kar and old Minbari watching a holo vid of a battle with the snowflakes. Possibly the one David got in trouble over.
At 52 secs we have the LIandra escaping a real big explosion.
And finally at 54 secs we get a good look at the future Rangers series logo!? Which resembles a bird more than a power ranger symbol.
Sorry if that was a bit repetitive at times but what started out as observations turned into a chronology.

------------------
--Never argue with an
idiot. They will drag you
down to their level and
then beat you with
experience.--

Kribu · Oct 9, 2001

Reading all of the above, I think I missed about 3/4 of the events in the trailer, especially the details.

It's just too fast for me (and the pause & ff buttons didn't help much either, I'm afraid).

Oh well, I'll just have to watch it again. And again.

------------------
"It's animal magnetism. What can I say?"
- G'Kar, A Tragedy of Telepaths
The One and Only True Kribu Board

Delenn_is_a_hotty · Oct 9, 2001

Kribu, just pause the playback and grab the time index line with your pointer and drag it to the right frame by frame.

------------------
--Never argue with an
idiot. They will drag you
down to their level and
then beat you with
experience.--

Kribu · Oct 9, 2001

Ah, thanks, didn't think to try that.

I expect I'll have it memorized, frame by frame, in the coming months.

------------------
"It's animal magnetism. What can I say?"
- G'Kar, A Tragedy of Telepaths
The One and Only True Kribu Board

**DONOTDELETE** · Oct 9, 2001

At least we have two nice names for the ancient enemy.
"Snowflakes" or "space amoebas" - which do you like? lol

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Or it could be someone having difficulty with a changeling net or any number of things.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A good idea. It could be. Does any of you remember what effects a malfunctioning changeling net produces? I haven't seen "The Gathering" for ages, so I don't really remember what that Minbari warrior looked like when his changeling net started to fail.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>see the snowflake fire a purple energy ball at unknown target<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Slightly reminiscent of Centauri mass drivers being fired at Narn.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>What the heck is that large crystal structure the Liandra is outrunning at 21 secs? comet or a CLOSE up of one of those enemy snowflakes.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No idea. Even at the highest resolution it remains unrecognizable for me. I may try using some image enhancement techniques when I get back home from work.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Oddly enough the rectangular ships swarming around it look like raider fighters.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If it was the Valen, they may have been shuttles or lifepods (either leaving or being ejected from the ship).

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As for the "snowflakes" being a Shadow minion -- I very much doubt that. The alien with barbels told Martel something like "they have left a thousand worlds in their wake". A single species of Shadow minions couldn't have done that much, at least not on their own. I believe that we are dealing with something less poweful than the First Ones, but far older than most younger races.

Possibly an old but aggressive civilisation which was unable to stick its head out, fearing the Shadows or Vorlons would proceed to cut it off. Or an overconfident newcomer, ready to test its strength.

No matter what, this species seems to lack the sophistication and manipulativeness of the Shadows or Vorlons - they shoot first and ask questions later. As the question of "what do they want" hasn't been posed in the trailer, I assume that their objectives are easy to grasp.

But G'Kar's words about the "place of eternal darkness" suggest that they have at least something in common with the Shadows.

[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited October 09, 2001).]

Kribu · Oct 9, 2001

Well, I didn't say Shadow minions, did I?

In any case, I don't know and I'm not too good at speculating.

As for this "ancient enemy" - in the first trailer, there was talk of "billions" of years. That's a long time. I have no idea how long the other "first ones" had been around but *billions* of years should certainly place those unknown aliens among the first ones.

That could actually explain the relatively simple look of the ships - if they have, say, been away (?) for a while or just "sleeping" for a long, long time, they haven't perhaps had the chance to keep up with the latest fashion in ship technology.

Both the Shadow and Vorlon ships looked more impressive to me. Then again, those "snowflakes" (lovely name!) may be just the equivalent of large fighters or cruisers.

------------------
"It's animal magnetism. What can I say?"
- G'Kar, A Tragedy of Telepaths
The One and Only True Kribu Board

channe · Oct 9, 2001

Lennier - that makes a good amount of sense. Also, I'm remembering that this show is meant to drag more viewers in, so explaining the whole Shadow Thing to them might take too long.

------------------
Channe, Freelance Writer Extraordinaire and the next JMS.

"I have 15 things to do, all of them annoying... -Ivanova

**DONOTDELETE** · Oct 9, 2001

Yes, billions of years would definitely place them among First Ones, unless they took a really long afternoon nap. It would make them older than the Vorlons but possibly younger than the Shadows.

Yet I have a hard time imagining that Lorien wouldn't know all of the local First Ones. And Lorien explicitly stated that all had to be found -- that there would be no more.

Therefore I can see some possibilities:

A. They are old, but not First Ones by definition.
B. They have arrived from elsewhere.
C. They inhabit a city built by someone older than them.

[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited October 09, 2001).]

Kribu · Oct 9, 2001

It's possible.

Then again - Lorien, who spent a while living in a cave, may have thought that they have left/died?

Or perhaps they had indeed left earlier and now came back for some reason - guessing that without the other First Ones, it may be easier to take over the galaxy now?

I must admit, I'm becoming curious.

------------------
"It's animal magnetism. What can I say?"
- G'Kar, A Tragedy of Telepaths
The One and Only True Kribu Board

Chris Springob · Oct 9, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by channe:
1. The Giant Space Amoebas, of course, which will remain named that way until someone tells me what the Ancient Enemy is called.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

According to the AICN review, the Ancient Enemy is called The Hand:
http://www.aint-it-cool-news.com/display.cgi?id=9622

The review also says that The Hand....

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black>Spoiler:</td></tr><tr><td>...is trapped in another dimension. It also says that The Hand "makes the Shadows look like insects". </td></tr></table>

The stuff in the spoiler box is just from memory. Read the review yourself if you want the exact wording. But be warned. It's filled with spoilers.

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**DONOTDELETE** · Oct 9, 2001

Oh yes, I now remember that review. A true load of spoilers, although possibly not 100% correct. But there is one thing I haven't managed to figure out:

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black>Spoiler:</td></tr><tr><td>If they were trapped in another dimension, then how did they get there?

Getting back could perhaps be explained with someone discovering their city, experimenting with their technology and letting them know it is possible to come back. But what initially got them into that other dimension?

Makes me wonder.

1. Did they want to go there and later reconsider?
2. Accident? Then how could this accident happen to all of them?
3. Did someone force them to retreat there?

If number 3 is correct then who forced them to hide? Was it Lorien's race? The Shadows? Vorlons? Other old races? If a known force in the galaxy could drive them to flee into another dimension, they wouldn't be very dangerous compared to known First Ones (who must have battled each other more than once over billions of years).

There is of course the other option - that they originated from another dimension like the "Third Space" inhabitants. But I somehow doubt if JMS would use a story that similar to "Third Space" for a second time.</td></tr></table>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>would make the Shadows look like insects<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They already look like insects. For all we know, they might be insects. Highly intelligent, technically advanced and inherently chaotic insects.

And if compared with someone with only destruction in their mind, the Shadows are relatively harmless for the younger races. They consider themselves guardians, someone who causes chaos but never completely destroys. Thay have the ability to destroy, but they limit themselves to fueling chaos.

[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited October 09, 2001).]

Elenopa · Oct 9, 2001

Just downloaded the trailer, so I haven't had time to absorb everything.

One thing I will speculate on. That yawning Ranger at sec 46. I think he is a ghost, one of the crew that were found dead. The reason? He's wearing the original Ranger uniform. Trust me on this, I make my own costumes.

------------------
Ranger Elenopa

"You can get more with a kind word and a two by four, than you can with just a kind word"

**DONOTDELETE** · Oct 9, 2001

His costume is truly a bit different. If only more would be visible of his Ranger uniform. And when Dulann looks back, his expression seems to confirm your suspicion. It looks like the Minbari equivalent of:

Oh shit, is that Human really planning to *bite* me?

------------------
"We are the universe, trying to figure itself out.
Unfortunately we as software lack any coherent documentation."
-- Delenn

Quagmire · Oct 9, 2001

The uniform and the fact that his mouth appears open enough to fit a watermellon leads me to believe you may be right. He's a ghost.

------------------
Bus

"Yeah, we could start our own game where people throw ducks at balloons and nothing's the way it seems."-Homer

drakh · Oct 9, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Elenopa:
One thing I will speculate on. That yawning Ranger at sec 46. I think he is a ghost, one of the crew that were found dead.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Hmmm... I figured he was Malcolm using the changeling net, given that the effect reminded me of fake-Lyta's ghasp in the Gathering.

But now that you mention it... He does look kinda pale...

------------------
You are not entitled to your own opinion. You are only entitled to your own informed opinion.
-- Harlan Ellison qouting Gustave Flaubert

B5_Obsessed · Oct 10, 2001

That one scene has Malcolm Bridges demonstrating what certainly looks like a Changeling Net to G'Kar by appearing as G'Kar.

I wonder if they've perfected the technology and removed the health hazards associated with using them.

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"When something we value is destroyed, we rebuild it. If it's destroyed again we rebuild it again. And again, and again, and again. Until it stays. "
~Jeffrey Sinclair

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