Game of Thrones, HBO series

[Looney]

A lot to think about, but most noteably where the conclusion of this epic compares and contrasts to Babylon 5.

But isn't that also how Babylon 5 ended? Even after the formation of the Alliance, the same shit continued to happen as we saw in Deconstruction of Falling Stars. Besides, I had the impression that the political situation at the end of the show implied there would be peace - at least for the foreseeable future.

In answer to Springer's question about this being the same way Babylon 5 ended I say no. On the surface there are many similarities in structure, but that is about it. With Babylon 5 we have a new alliance and a new community coming together with hope for a better world. Game of Thrones on the flip side has not much of a new alliance and an old community coming together in a slightly different way than they had before and missing a huge chunk of itself. So where as B5 has many groups coming together to start something new, Game of Thrones has fewer groups than they started with trying to do things in a slightly new way. In Babylon 5 these groups have come together to make themselves stronger and more united. In Game of Thrones these groups have come together out of a new necessity for survival.

I really would be sooo much more satisfied with this aspect of the finale if Sansa hadn't been allowed to branch off. Now many might argue that the Interstellar Alliance was moving forward without one of its largest members, The Centauri, just like The NOW Six Kingdoms were moving forward without The North. Firstly, The Interstellar Alliance started out with The Centauri. It was only through the intervention of dark forces that the Centauri were forced to separate. Sansa chose to say no to unity from the start. AND roughly speaking she chose to take huge portion of the realm with her. I forget the exact comparison, but wasn't The North fully 1/3rd or close to half of Seven Kingdoms? That puts the Six Kingdoms at an enormous disadvantage where the Interstellar Alliance brought more groups together than had been united before. If Sansa had not fractured off then I would say there is more of a comparison, but what she did was the opposite of what we saw with B5.

And with both series we know the same things will continue to happen. Wars will come, but in Babylon 5 there is hope that those in the Alliance are better prepared. In Game of Thrones they are more like one attack away from being wiped off the face of the map.

Anyway long story long, Babylon 5 ends on a note of progress, change, and unity in hopes of creating strength and a better future. Game of Thrones ends with a fractured and weakened nation that is vulnerable and has made one minor step toward a positive future. So I don't see the comparison in the regard of future prosperity.

Let's face it, we'll be watching Daenerys from a different perspective from now on!

See I was already there. I saw the monster inside her the whole time. My hope was that this story was about a character's growth and learning to conqueror her demons to do the right thing. That is why I thought it was great when it was suggested her ending might be that she realizes she has to give up the crown and possibly her life for the good of the people. I don't need to see her journey again because the monster was always there and I saw it. It was those around her who kept her in check and made her better.

I asked the question earlier, if it had been B5 instead of GoT, how would we be reacting?

I'm not sure what you mean? Are you asking how we would react if Delenn had decided to blow up the station? Well that wouldn't make sense. As I said before, the monster was always in Daenerys. I'm not saying her actions didn't make sense, I am saying the decision to end her story in this manner was a bad decision. If Babylon 5 had ended in a way that didn't make sense for a story to end I probably wouldn't love it so much, though I often imagine how great it would be to see alternate universe stories. The Shadows won, The Vorlons won, Clark won, Sheridan died and stayed dead on Z'Ha'Dum. Ivanova died and Marcus couldn't bring her back. Of course I would want to see the whole story. If B5 ended on one of those notes, other than Sheridan or Ivanova dying, I probably wouldn't love the series so much.

I will confess there are two things about the end of Babylon 5 that really annoy me. One I didn't think it was realistic that the member planets of the newly formed Interstellar Alliance would be so willing to base the headquarters on Minbar, but I understand the planet of the most powerful member seems the most secure. Second is that the station became redundant. The formation of The Interstellar Alliance should have insured the necessity of Babylon 5 into the distant future. I know JMS wanted there to be story closure and the fulfillment of prophecies, but the destruction should have taken place well into the future. This doesn't ruin the series for me because I know the need for closure when it comes to a story, unlike Game of Thrones.

I certainly remember the bitching after Z'Ha'Dum had aired

All the complaining: where did the Minbari ships that were guarding the station go?

My opinion is that they didn't go anywhere. That was just poor direction and planning. Someone can correct me if I am wrong, but I think we are supposed to believe they were there and it was just a mistake that they forgot to show any of them in those exterior shots.

Why didn't Draal blow the Shadow ships out of the sky?

No actual fighting took place so we don't know that he wouldn't have tried to stop them if they started to fire.

Why did the Shadows not check Sheridan for weapons?

Over confidence.

How'd he get to that parapet?

I've always assumed it wasn't actually that far from where he had been. So he fought his way into hall and around the corner.

Why didn't the Shadows just shoot the White Star down?

It all happened so quickly they didn't react in time. I mean we've seen that the surface of the planet didn't appear to have mechanized defenses. That means they solely rely on those ships to defend the planet and maybe the ships just couldn't react fast enough and get where they needed to be to stop it.

 

[Springer]

I'm not sure what you mean?

I was really just alluding to how, if we were watching B5 for the first time now, with all the intensity of people's opinions on social media etc, I wonder how it would be received and whether it would have got the same backlash that GoT has received. The example of Z'Ha'Dum was just to highlight some of the criticisms that I heard when that episode aired (for the record, I don't agree with any of those criticisms, I agree with all of your responses to them, and Z'Ha'Dum is probably my second-favourite episode of the show after Severed Dreams). But imagine the response on social media now to how the Shadow War ended, or how most of season 5 played out, or Lennier's 'heel-turn', Londo's fate, and how we didn't get to see the Telepath War, or Sheridan and Delenn's son etc etc. Given the reactions to the final season of Game of Thrones, I imagine if B5 were new and airing for the first time today, many people's reactions to the choices taken in the show would be equally scathing, if not more so. So I guess I'm just trying to make a comparison between that and the backlash to Game of Thrones.

I think as fans we revere B5 and if we come on here and critique it, that critique is coming from a position of love for the show, where we accept its flaws but our love for the other things that the show did brilliantly far outweighs those flaws - it's a kind of friendly critquing. That's how I wish the reaction to GoT could be, but in general the response seems to be black and white, and very polarising - but that just seems to be how things are these days.

 

[Looney]

I'm not sure what you mean?

I was really just alluding to how, if we were watching B5 for the first time now, with all the intensity of people's opinions on social media etc, I wonder how it would be received and whether it would have got the same backlash that GoT has received. The example of Z'Ha'Dum was just to highlight some of the criticisms that I heard when that episode aired (for the record, I don't agree with any of those criticisms, I agree with all of your responses to them, and Z'Ha'Dum is probably my second-favourite episode of the show after Severed Dreams). But imagine the response on social media now to how the Shadow War ended, or how most of season 5 played out, or Lennier's 'heel-turn', Londo's fate, and how we didn't get to see the Telepath War, or Sheridan and Delenn's son etc etc. Given the reactions to the final season of Game of Thrones, I imagine if B5 were new and airing for the first time today, many people's reactions to the choices taken in the show would be equally scathing, if not more so. So I guess I'm just trying to make a comparison between that and the backlash to Game of Thrones.

I think as fans we revere B5 and if we come on here and critique it, that critique is coming from a position of love for the show, where we accept its flaws but our love for the other things that the show did brilliantly far outweighs those flaws - it's a kind of friendly critquing. That's how I wish the reaction to GoT could be, but in general the response seems to be black and white, and very polarising - but that just seems to be how things are these days.

That is a VERY interesting point. I KNOW today people would jump all over Sheridan surviving Z'Ha'Dum, but I don't know that they would hate the show as a whole for doing it. But I think they would hate the end of The Shadow War and possibly turn on the show for doing it the way it originally unfolded. But that all depends on how it would be done today. I think we all realize the end of The Shadow War had to be a bit rushed. I think how it concludes is fine. I think the issue is that we don't see enough build up once the actual open fighting starts. I know if B5 were being done today that, in all likelihood, Sheridan does not survive Z'Ha'Dum and we get more episodes involving the actual battles of The Shadow War. I don't necessarily mean we see more CGI space battles, but more episodes to illustrate a passage of time on screen while the war is taking place. I mean I know part of the point was that there really wasn't much in the realm of actual battles because the powers involved were so far superior, but there would likely be more of an illustrated passage of time. Point being, if Babylon 5 were being done today I imagine things would be dramatically different.

But all and all I doubt people would react the same way. Nothing in Babylon 5 takes a heroic character and turns them into a monster who murdered thousands. Londo is the closest, but he ends up with what could be argued a well deserved tragic end. Londo did not always operate out of a desire to help the common good. His own self-interest and the good of the Centauri always took precedence. Jon Snow and Daenerys did not deserve what they got. Up to that point Daenerys had made mistakes, but she did not deserve to be turned into a monster. I don't recall a time when Jon Snow did not try to do the right thing for the good of all. Imagine B5 taking Delenn or Sheridan and having them go crazy and kill thousands so then the other's life is destroyed when they have to execute the monster?

The only character I felt B5 gave an undeserved tragic ending was Lennier, but it made sense and you could kind of see it coming. It was painful, but it was not a moment that turned him into a monster. I doubt people would say the entire series was ruined by what they did to Londo or Lennier or Lyta for that matter. I left out Lyta. I doubt many would think Lyta became a monster and that what she did to Sheridan and the others was a shock. She was mistreated and she started standing up for herself. It was highly inappropriate and over the top, but she did what she felt she had to do.

Now on the lighter side people might turn on the show because of Byron. Of course if the show were being done today that whole situation would likely be very different.

 

[Springer]

It could be argued that what Londo did was far, far worse than anything Daenerys did, and in a way he got off lightly, compared to Refa. Yes he had to have the keeper but it was his choice, and he continued breathing, at least until he asked G'Kar to end it for him. But, sometimes in real life and in fiction, people don't always get the justice they deserve!

I actually don't think Jon got a bad ending. In fact, it was a much better ending for him than I thought he was going to get! He was conflicted by love and duty, but he chose the hero's choice, and took on that burden to save Westeros - which is what heroes do. And though he was 'banished' to the Night's Watch, he was really going to where he was happiest, beyond the wall with the Wildlings who he helped save. As he watches the gate at Castle Black close, he allows himself a little half-smile. The whole ending, for Tyrion, for Arya, for Sansa, for Jon, was a reminder that there could always be new beginnings - even, as Ivanova said, for people like them. And since Bran and Sansa are both young and will likely have long reigns, and are unlikely to go to war with one another, then peace probably did last on Westeros for a long time (though I could imagine the Ironborn causing minor problems).

That said, if they'd had Jon do what Dany did, which in essence was to lose sight of reality while chasing power (I don't think she is a monster at heart, despite acting monstrously, but maybe I'm splitting the hair too thin with that analysis), I'd have been upset and probably as angry as other viewers who were angry at Dany's turn! So I guess, as Obi-Wan said, it all depends on your point of view.

 

[Looney]

Sorry I am taking so long, but I will give a proper response when I have time.

 

[Looney]

It could be argued that what Londo did was far, far worse than anything Daenerys did, and in a way he got off lightly, compared to Refa.

I disagree that is something that could be argued. She knowingly burned thousands of people alive. Londo never exhibited such cruelty. Londo never took any action that he knew would mean the slaughter of thousands. He knew his actions would start wars, but he had no knowledge of exactly how that would play out. It wasn't Londo's plan to bomb Narn into submission, though he did go along with it in the interest of ending the war in victory with a minimum of Centauri deaths. Londo never says that thousands need to die so they'll fear him if they don't respect him.

I actually don't think Jon got a bad ending. In fact, it was a much better ending for him than I thought he was going to get! He was conflicted by love and duty, but he chose the hero's choice, and took on that burden to save Westeros - which is what heroes do. And though he was 'banished' to the Night's Watch, he was really going to where he was happiest, beyond the wall with the Wildlings who he helped save. As he watches the gate at Castle Black close, he allows himself a little half-smile.

See that is all open to interpretation. I would think it was a good ending for him if he didn't seem so broken. I saw the half-smile differently.

 

[Springer]

Sorry to resurrect this thread, but I was just reading some interviews with Emmy Award nominated actors https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/l...mmys-2019-leading-actors-jared-harris-1231727 and something Kit Harington had to say about his ending I thought was relevant here:

"I loved it. When I read it, that bit really made me cry. What really made me cry was on the paper: "End of Game of Thrones." But as far as an ending for Jon Snow, this character that I loved for so many years and had grown so close to, and had meant so much to me … seeing him go beyond the Wall back to something true, something honest, something pure with these people he was always told he belongs with — the Free Folk — it felt to me like he was finally free. Instead of being chained and sent to the Wall, it felt like he was set free. It was a really sweet ending. As much as he had done a horrible thing [in killing Daenerys], as much as he had felt that pain, the actual ending for him was finally being released."

 

[Looney]

"I loved it. When I read it, that bit really made me cry. What really made me cry was on the paper: "End of Game of Thrones." But as far as an ending for Jon Snow, this character that I loved for so many years and had grown so close to, and had meant so much to me … seeing him go beyond the Wall back to something true, something honest, something pure with these people he was always told he belongs with — the Free Folk — it felt to me like he was finally free. Instead of being chained and sent to the Wall, it felt like he was set free. It was a really sweet ending. As much as he had done a horrible thing [in killing Daenerys], as much as he had felt that pain, the actual ending for him was finally being released."

Oh if that were only the case. Who do you think all of those Free Folk think is their leader? Who are they going to look to with all of their problems? He wasn't free. He was just free of the Seven Kingdoms.

 

[Springer]

Oh if that were only the case. Who do you think all of those Free Folk think is their leader? Who are they going to look to with all of their problems? He wasn't free. He was just free of the Seven Kingdoms.

Ha! Though I think sorting out a dispute about which tribe stole some other tribe's goat is probably fairly hassle free compared to the machinations of the Seven Kingdoms! It's a fair point though, and the script (which can be found online, it was available on the Emmy site) for the final episode actually alludes to it:

'Jon steps forward into the sea of waiting faces. There is no suspicion in those faces, and no awe. Only trust. The Night's Watch used to hunt them, but they will follow this Night's Watchman.'

Though of course the Free Folk kneel to no man (or woman)!

The Emmy website is password protected now, but initially it wasn't, so you can probably find a copy of the script online. It's actually really good, dare I say it even better than the actual episode!

Around the time I was watching season three (and knowing nothing of the books or what would happen next) I actually thought that Jon would end up becoming the leader of the Wildlings and leading them against the Seven Kingdoms, a bit like Paul in Dune leading the Fremen and ultimately becoming emperor. Funny how we kind-of-almost got that – what I liked about his story is that we got that but in a different way than expected - and of course he turned down the chance to be king.

Anyway, I just thought it was interesting. And Harington does say that's what he felt about it, not necessarily what the scriptwriters intended, so I guess it can still be interpreted differently. I like endings that are open to interpretation!

On another note, how much do you want to bet that Harington gets cast in Benioff and Weiss' upcoming Star Wars movies? He'd be a great Jedi.

 

[Looney]

On another note, how much do you want to bet that Harington gets cast in Benioff and Weiss' upcoming Star Wars movies? He'd be a great Jedi.

Addressing the last point quickly, I don't know about that. I have no ill will toward Harrington, but I think MANY people lump him in with their dislike of how GOT ended. I don't know if Disney's PR will think that is a good hire. As a matter of fact, I wouldn't be surprised if they rethink the Benioff / Weiss decision because there is a lot of ill will toward those two now, at least according to the internet and all but one person I know who watched it - two if I count you Springer.

 

[Springer]

On another note, how much do you want to bet that Harington gets cast in Benioff and Weiss' upcoming Star Wars movies? He'd be a great Jedi.

Addressing the last point quickly, I don't know about that. I have no ill will toward Harrington, but I think MANY people lump him in with their dislike of how GOT ended. I don't know if Disney's PR will think that is a good hire. As a matter of fact, I wouldn't be surprised if they rethink the Benioff / Weiss decision because there is a lot of ill will toward those two now, at least according to the internet and all but one person I know who watched it - two if I count you Springer.

Nah, I don't agree with any of that. First, while I do agree that on many of the fan-sites there are 'fans' (not sure if they can be called fans now if they hate the show) who would happily lynch Benioff and Weiss if they got the chance, I think many of the general public enjoyed the show – the anecdotal evidence comes from reading, for example, Facebook comments to newspaper reviews, where it is more of the general public commenting rather than the more highly invested fans. Factual evidence comes in the form of the ratings – every episode in season 8 was higher than every other episode in every previous season with the exception of episodes 705 and 707, and the final two episodes of season 8 beat even them and are the highest rated episodes of the entire series. The season in general, aside from two small dips in episodes 2 and 4, also had the general trend of increasing viewership as the season went along. If the general public thought it was so bad, they'd have been dropping the show in droves wouldn't they? And the show surely wouldn't have gotten so many Emmy nominations, including for Benioff and Weiss and Harington?

Second, do you really agree that because some people hated the ending of Game of Thrones, Benioff or Weiss or even the actors shouldn't be employed again? Some people despised JMS' run on the Spiderman comics (I've never read them, so can't comment), so should he not be allowed to write comics again? Besides, even on the most rabid of GoT fan-sites, there's nothing but love for the actors. Their beef is with Benioff and Weiss. Not sure where lumping the actors in with the hate has come from, I've certainly not seen that and while the show was airing I was reading GoT fan sites every day (they're too toxic now so I just stay away from them – I think the world would be a better place if the GoT and Star Wars fandoms didn't exist!)

Netflix certainly don't agree. They've just signed Benioff and Weiss on a multi-million dollar deal to develop shows for them.

HBO don't agree. GoT has been their most successful show ever. Season 8 probably surpassed all their hopes in terms of viewership and subscriptions. They're likely ecstatic at how the season performed, and the show as a whole.

And anyway, Disney and Kathleen Kennedy have given Rian Johnson an entire Star Wars trilogy, and if there's any creator currently hated more than Benioff and Weiss, it's him. So if he can still get a Star Wars gig, Benioff and Weiss certainly can keep theirs (rumour is it is going to be a Knight's of the Old Republic story, which is exciting to me).

I just wish we could get back to writers being able to tell the stories they want, without being hated for it. The reaction to GoT and the Last Jedi will have sent shivers down the spine of writers. If someone doesn't like a story, they should just move on if all they can do is spew hate. Imagine you wrote a novel, and it didn't get good reviews, well you'd be disappointed but fair enough. But if people then started a petition to get somebody else to rewrite your story? Well, screw them.

 

[Looney]

Nah, I don't agree with any of that. First, while I do agree that on many of the fan-sites there are 'fans' (not sure if they can be called fans now if they hate the show) who would happily lynch Benioff and Weiss if they got the chance, I think many of the general public enjoyed the show – the anecdotal evidence comes from reading, for example, Facebook comments to newspaper reviews, where it is more of the general public commenting rather than the more highly invested fans. Factual evidence comes in the form of the ratings – every episode in season 8 was higher than every other episode in every previous season with the exception of episodes 705 and 707, and the final two episodes of season 8 beat even them and are the highest rated episodes of the entire series. The season in general, aside from two small dips in episodes 2 and 4, also had the general trend of increasing viewership as the season went along. If the general public thought it was so bad, they'd have been dropping the show in droves wouldn't they? And the show surely wouldn't have gotten so many Emmy nominations, including for Benioff and Weiss and Harington?

Second, do you really agree that because some people hated the ending of Game of Thrones, Benioff or Weiss or even the actors shouldn't be employed again? Some people despised JMS' run on the Spiderman comics (I've never read them, so can't comment), so should he not be allowed to write comics again? Besides, even on the most rabid of GoT fan-sites, there's nothing but love for the actors. Their beef is with Benioff and Weiss. Not sure where lumping the actors in with the hate has come from, I've certainly not seen that and while the show was airing I was reading GoT fan sites every day (they're too toxic now so I just stay away from them – I think the world would be a better place if the GoT and Star Wars fandoms didn't exist!)

Netflix certainly don't agree. They've just signed Benioff and Weiss on a multi-million dollar deal to develop shows for them.

HBO don't agree. GoT has been their most successful show ever. Season 8 probably surpassed all their hopes in terms of viewership and subscriptions. They're likely ecstatic at how the season performed, and the show as a whole.

And anyway, Disney and Kathleen Kennedy have given Rian Johnson an entire Star Wars trilogy, and if there's any creator currently hated more than Benioff and Weiss, it's him. So if he can still get a Star Wars gig, Benioff and Weiss certainly can keep theirs (rumour is it is going to be a Knight's of the Old Republic story, which is exciting to me).

I just wish we could get back to writers being able to tell the stories they want, without being hated for it. The reaction to GoT and the Last Jedi will have sent shivers down the spine of writers. If someone doesn't like a story, they should just move on if all they can do is spew hate. Imagine you wrote a novel, and it didn't get good reviews, well you'd be disappointed but fair enough. But if people then started a petition to get somebody else to rewrite your story? Well, screw them.

That is ALL great, but you highly over-estimate the number of people who are okay with that show in the U.S. In my personal experience I know 10 people, counting you Springer, whom watched the entire series. Not knowing your age I can say their ages range all over the map from 17 to 71. You, me, and a friend who's 43 are the only people who didn't absolutely hate all of Season 8. (Sorry I had to make that phrase work. ) I said "me" because I didn't absolutely hate all of Season 8, but I did hate many aspects of Season 8. I didn't hate that Jon Snow ended up North of The Wall, but I hate how he ended up there and honestly I didn't feel the look on his face as he rode away from The Wall conveyed the sentiments you mentioned.

And I never said they shouldn't be employed again. What I am saying is that I am surprised Disney would hire them for Star Wars. Point out every bit of argument you want that the public outcry isn't that bad, but it is pretty bad - at least here. That is why I am surprised Disney would hire them. There is already enough of a roller coaster in the Star Wars Universe. Hiring the team who created an uproar with their handling of another hugely popular franchise seems like a huge risk to take, which is why I won't be surprised if we see that they couldn't see eye-to-eye in a few months and are no longer involved with the Star Wars Universe.

 

[Springer]

That is ALL great, but you highly over-estimate the number of people who are okay with that show in the U.S. In my personal experience I know 10 people, counting you Springer, whom watched the entire series. Not knowing your age I can say their ages range all over the map from 17 to 71. You, me, and a friend who's 43 are the only people who didn't absolutely hate all of Season 8. (Sorry I had to make that phrase work. ) I said "me" because I didn't absolutely hate all of Season 8, but I did hate many aspects of Season 8. I didn't hate that Jon Snow ended up North of The Wall, but I hate how he ended up there and honestly I didn't feel the look on his face as he rode away from The Wall conveyed the sentiments you mentioned.

And I never said they shouldn't be employed again. What I am saying is that I am surprised Disney would hire them for Star Wars. Point out every bit of argument you want that the public outcry isn't that bad, but it is pretty bad - at least here. That is why I am surprised Disney would hire them. There is already enough of a roller coaster in the Star Wars Universe. Hiring the team who created an uproar with their handling of another hugely popular franchise seems like a huge risk to take, which is why I won't be surprised if we see that they couldn't see eye-to-eye in a few months and are no longer involved with the Star Wars Universe.

Fair points. I do seem to find that I often enjoy things that perceived wisdom on social media thinks is trash – I love the Matrix trilogy for example, think Star Trek: The Motion Picture is among the best Star Trek films, obviously I liked the GoT ending, I guess even B5 to an extent is something that isn't universally appreciated. My tastes do seem somewhat idiosyncratic, but it does sadden me to see all the hate. I remember reading someone on a forum somewhere dismissing B5 in one sentence as 'overrated', and I thought to myself, how can a series that's had such a profound effect on people like us be overrated? Might not be their cup of tea, but that's different. And that's kind of how I feel about the hate GoT gets.

I think re. Star Wars, Disney have already got a reputation of harshly treating their creators. Colin Trevorrow got dumped unceremoniously, Lord and Miller got sacked (though from the sounds of it that might have been the right decision), Gareth Edwards got some pressure from above to reshoot scenes in Rogue One, I think Kathleen Kennedy has to start appearing more supportive of her creators. And who knows, maybe she was one of the 10 people in the world that liked the ending to GoT! Plus, by the time the films come out, 2022 I think, the furore would probably have blown over and people will have forgotten who Benioff and Weiss are, or maybe their work for Netflix will find them new fans. I think a bigger indicator of what future Star Wars films are made will be how Rise of Skywalker performs.

Which reminds me, I need to rewatch The Last Jedi before then with fresh eyes and see if my feelings about it have changed.

 

[Looney]

I think the biggest reason people don't give B5 credit is because they can't put its greatness in context. People judge it by modern standards without realizing the CRITICAL role it played in creating those standards. Without B5 we don't get GOT. There were serialized shows before B5, but not many in the era of B5 that accomplished what B5 accomplished. People don't know the credit B5 got during its time for what it did, at least in the Science Fiction arena.

 

[Looney]

I looked up which episode of GoT that YouTube reviewer watched, it was a bit of a strange choice? I mean, I really like the episode (though logic does go out the window at times, I admit) but it's really not representative of the series as a whole. And GoT is so serialised it's hard to pick just one episode - you really have to start at the beginning don't you?

YES! That is just it. You really can't pick one GOT episode and just start there. The whole concept is ridiculous because you have to watch it from the beginning. Now as I've said before, I first started B5 at the beginning of Season 2. I disagree that one could start somewhere other than the beginning because it is soooooooooooooooooooooooooo much better when you see it as a whole. I totally missed out on knowing Sinclair as a real character until I was able to see Season One, which didn't happen until around the TNT Days. I will grant you that it is nowhere near the level of having to see all of GOT, but as a whole it is better to start at the beginning.
Maybe the next Poll should be - Where does one absolutely HAVE to start B5, meaning if it were playing in order and you missed the start what is the episode you can't miss when it comes up on the schedule?

Okay so back to the GOT video. I should have also pointed out it was meant to be a fun side video that wasn't really meant to focus too much on that particular episode of GOT. But I felt so upset she was bashing it. I feel like you can't criticize GOT unless you watched GOT. It felt like a code violation or something. It seemed ridiculous that someone could pull a random episode and then criticize the entire series based on that one episode. It just felt wrong. If you aren't part of the club then you can't question the club. :guffaw:

 

[Springer]

Okay so back to the GOT video. I should have also pointed out it was meant to be a fun side video that wasn't really meant to focus too much on that particular episode of GOT. But I felt so upset she was bashing it. I feel like you can't criticize GOT unless you watched GOT. It felt like a code violation or something. It seemed ridiculous that someone could pull a random episode and then criticize the entire series based on that one episode. It just felt wrong. If you aren't part of the club then you can't question the club. :guffaw:

That is *exactly* how I feel about B5! It's almost like B5 is this little show that we fans need to protect.

Maybe we need to start the B5 hit squad, where we wander the Internet looking for people dissing on B5, then put them to rights!

I'd do the same for GoT, but I don't think I can take on millions of people by myself! lol

 

[Looney]

Okay so back to the GOT video. I should have also pointed out it was meant to be a fun side video that wasn't really meant to focus too much on that particular episode of GOT. But I felt so upset she was bashing it. I feel like you can't criticize GOT unless you watched GOT. It felt like a code violation or something. It seemed ridiculous that someone could pull a random episode and then criticize the entire series based on that one episode. It just felt wrong. If you aren't part of the club then you can't question the club. :guffaw:

That is *exactly* how I feel about B5! It's almost like B5 is this little show that we fans need to protect.

Maybe we need to start the B5 hit squad, where we wander the Internet looking for people dissing on B5, then put them to rights!

I'd do the same for GoT, but I don't think I can take on millions of people by myself! lol

Definitely. You can't bad mouth B5 until you've seen all of B5. From an effects angle, they could have done an entire series and done nothing with computer animated spaceships and it would still be a pretty damn good series. :thumbsup:

So The Babylon 5 Defenders or Avengers? :guffaw: