Game of Thrones, HBO series

[Springer]

There were definitely soldiers from the Vale in the battle – you can see their sigil on the shields of the soldiers that Brienne was commanding. But where the mounted cavalry were, and Royce himself, I've no idea – especially as I had expected Royce to be one of the characters to get killed! I did hear a rumour that one of the reasons the Dothraki got annihilated in the first five minutes was that the writers wanted to avoid the budget for the episode becoming too high by having extensive cavalry battles, so that might also be a reason why the Vale cavalry wasn't in the episode.

There is a Night's King (note the subtle difference in spelling) in the mythology of the books; if memory serves, the story goes that he was an earlier Lord Commander of the Night's Watch who 'married' a female Other long, long ago, and became one of them. There's still two books left so maybe someone similar to the Night King will turn up, we'll see. The Others/White Walkers are a little bit different in the books, for example they talk (described as sounding like the noise of crackling ice). I'm not even sure the origin story is the same for them as it is in the show (dragonglass into the heart of one of the First Men) but someone more familiar with the books might correct me (I've only read the first two and a half books, and also the World of Ice and Fire book that describes all the history/mythology of Westeros and Essos).

I watched episode 3 again and enjoyed it much more, though I still don't like the ending. Even if Arya and Jon had teamed up, with Jon distracting Viserion long enough for Arya to slip through, would have been better. But it is what it is. Now on to episode 4 – and I think I agree with you that we're going to get caught off guard and something shocking happen!

 

[Looney]

So Episode 4, WOW does this season continue to disappoint. I understand why they might be doing what they are doing, but they are doing it in a REALLY dumb way.

Okay so no appearance in Episode 3, but there was Lord Royce right there in the thick of the strategy session Post Battle - and really looking none-the-worse-for-wear. SO he is either one hell of a warrior and they didn't show it or he was hiding somewhere and they didn't show it.

Like I said, I think I know what they are doing, but they are being dumb about it.

So lots to hate about this episode, chiefly that our heroes are morons. I was utterly shocked when they said they would travel by sea. I couldn't believe the show was going to go to that well again, but they did!!!!!! :wtf: :wtf: I can't believe how dumb that was - and I mean on the part of the writers. You knew as soon as you saw them on ships that ONCE again Euron Greyjoy was going to show up with an overpowering ambush. I knew there would be shocking deaths this week, but that was beyond shocking - it was ridiculous. And it was doubly ridiculous that Daenerys just flew away. WHAT?!?!?!?!?!?! You have air superiority and you are facing slow moving ships with fairly slow loading weaponry and you run away without making any real attempt at retaliation?!?!?!?!?! I know she had to factor in fear for Drogon, but still not one real attempt?!?!?!?! And triply ridiculous, what possible justifiable reason would they have for going back to Dragonstone?!?!?!?!?!?! I know it would be symbolic, but they know Euron Greyjoy is dominating the sea and ambushing them at Dragonstone wouldn't even put him that far from King's Landing. :scream: :scream:

The Varys stuff was garbage, but they are just stirring the pot. I half-expected Daenerys to step out of the shadows and have him executed, but I think they were just blowing smoke and the fact that he was right there with her at the gates seemed to confirm my thinking.

The Sansa stuff was WAY too predictable and annoying. The good news is Arya is headed south so whatever happens maybe she'll know the truth and be able to convince Sansa or maybe Bran will play a role in softening Sansa to Daenerys.

Okay so my predictions haven't exactly been on the money yet, but here is my new one.
I think Springer's earlier speculation was correct and Daenery's will have to sacrifice everything to prove her worth, which likely now includes Drogon. I believe they want us to believe she is going mad because she is losing everyone she loves and everything that has given her power, including her claim on the throne. All that are closest to her are vanishing and leaving her with strangers. Her redemption will start with the realization that she can see past this for the greater good.... and oh yeah Jon Snow is still going to die. All this talk of him being King is a mislead, especially given the fact that his true lineage is becoming public knowledge. Likely Daenerys will have to sacrifice herself in some way for the greater good of the people and shortly after that Jaime or Arya will kill Cersei. And don't think for a moment a Daenery's pregnancy isn't going to play a role.

So the trick is that now my prediction has been made figure out what they will really do. Just think of some really annoying twist and that is probably what they will do.

 

[Springer]

I liked episode 4, although it did feel strangely lacking as a whole, like the separate elements were good, but they didn't quite fit together. Again, it might feel more cohesive on a second watch.

I think a big part of the problem is that with two episodes to go, we're really still guessing at what roles the characters are meant to play. What's Jon's role? What's Tyrion's role? What is Jaime doing? I feel that at this stage there should be greater clarity, so that they can get on and do whatever it is they're meant to do.

Okay so no appearance in Episode 3, but there was Lord Royce right there in the thick of the strategy session Post Battle - and really looking none-the-worse-for-wear. SO he is either one hell of a warrior and they didn't show it or he was hiding somewhere and they didn't show it.

Probably hiding in the pantry with Janos Slynt ;-)

So lots to hate about this episode, chiefly that our heroes are morons. I was utterly shocked when they said they would travel by sea. I couldn't believe the show was going to go to that well again, but they did!!!!!! :wtf: :wtf: I can't believe how dumb that was - and I mean on the part of the writers. You knew as soon as you saw them on ships that ONCE again Euron Greyjoy was going to show up with an overpowering ambush.

I was thinking about this - they should have expected Cersei's forces to have strengthened their positions and be waiting for them.. But I think Dany was over-confident that her dragons could handle anything should they be ambushed, and to be fair she couldn't have expected Euron's ships to be armed with even bigger scorpions.

I knew there would be shocking deaths this week, but that was beyond shocking - it was ridiculous. And it was doubly ridiculous that Daenerys just flew away. WHAT?!?!?!?!?!?! You have air superiority and you are facing slow moving ships with fairly slow loading weaponry and you run away without making any real attempt at retaliation?!?!?!?!?! I know she had to factor in fear for Drogon, but still not one real attempt?!?!?!?!

Ah, but she did make an attempt, before they all fired en masse at her and she had to turn and evade, and really she had no choice but to flee. And they seemed to reload pretty quickly to me.

And triply ridiculous, what possible justifiable reason would they have for going back to Dragonstone?!?!?!?!?!?! I know it would be symbolic, but they know Euron Greyjoy is dominating the sea and ambushing them at Dragonstone wouldn't even put him that far from King's Landing. :scream: :scream:

I agree with that, I think part of it was Dany didn't want to travel with Jon.

The Varys stuff was garbage, but they are just stirring the pot. I half-expected Daenerys to step out of the shadows and have him executed, but I think they were just blowing smoke and the fact that he was right there with her at the gates seemed to confirm my thinking.

I don't know, I think Varys is toast next episode, she'll burn him for treason. I'm not sure if he isn't even going to try and assassinate her. And Varys is right in what he says, although I hate how everyone, Sansa included, is now using Jon as a tool. If he survives, he should tell them all where to go and retire north of the wall with Ghost.

The Sansa stuff was WAY too predictable and annoying. The good news is Arya is headed south so whatever happens maybe she'll know the truth and be able to convince Sansa or maybe Bran will play a role in softening Sansa to Daenerys.

Yeah, the moment she swore to keep the secret I knew she'd not be able to keep her mouth shut. I can understand Jon telling his sisters, because it was about their father as much as it was about him, but Sansa is using Jon now the way Littlefinger used people. I'm curious though how she's going to factor into the end of the story since the narrative has moved south. Sansa, Bran, Sam, Brienne, Tormund – is that their stories over?

I really hope that they don't make Dany go mad. I mean, after seeing Missandei executed I can understand she'd be raging, but mass murder of innocent people? All we've had from her are words, we've not seen her make the choice, and when faced with the choice I believe she won't do it. Maybe Jon and Tyrion will have to talk her down from the precipice. But it's clear that the writers have been leading up to Dany being forced to choose between the throne and protecting the people for a few seasons now. The alternative is that she surrenders to Cersei, forcing the northern army and the unsullied to attempt to rescue her.

I dislike how some of the more magical elements of the storyline are being swept aside. But then there was that incongruous dialogue between Davos and Tyrion at the feast about the Lord of Light, it seems the writers wouldn't add that in unless it's going to pay off in the next two episodes. Thing is, I find Benioff and Weiss to be very literal in how they write, they don't layer in meaning very well, or have unexpected twists of that magnitude, at least not since they ran out of book material, so I'm sceptical about what they'll do with it. But perhaps there is still a twist coming to connect the Lord of Light story with the battle for the throne, but I have no idea what that might be.

And with two episodes left, I kind of feel we should have some idea by now.

 

[Looney]

Yeah we are on the same page with much of what is going on, and off on other things.
Okay so yes big issues, we're still guessing what people's roles are with two episodes to go. And I was just telling someone the same thing about how magical elements have always been down played and now utterly disappeared other than The Night King - oh wait.

I disagree that Varys will be executed for treason. Like I said, I think the whole MAD QUEEN angle is just a ruse and burning people for treason falls right into that ruse. I feel that if she does burn him then we'll know she's gone MAD QUEEN. And honestly I just hate the idea of him going out attempting something against her. However, the show seems to be making bonehead moves left and right so you're probably correct about Varys' fate. But I can't believe they would put Daenerys through all of this just to turn her into a monster. Unless this is all meant to be a Public Service Announcement about why people should stay away from inbreeding. :guffaw:

And those ships didn't have "Scorpions" on every side. Yes they were multi-directional, but she would have been able to maneuver behind them to strike and their ability to hit her would have been more impeded by the sails. Point is it was just too uninspired to have them once again be ambushed by Euron with a superior force. And his ships will need to be dealt with, but I'm sure it will be with some magical stroke from Yara Greyjoy rather than Daenerys figuring out how to get Drogon to burn them.

I was thinking we were seeing several characters for the last time, but I don't know how Sansa will figure in. Obviously something has to happen with her so Brienne, Podrick, and Bran should still likely be around, but I think we definitely saw the last of Tormund and possibly Sam. I really do wonder how Sansa will be a factor other than her having to change her mind or pulling some garbage like removing the Knights of The Vale from the army when Daenerys needs them.

So do you think they were implying Sam and Gilly were staying in Winterfell or returning to the Citadel?

 

[Springer]

When Sam was at the citadel the archmeister whatshisname - the character played by Jim Broadbent - was writing a history of the Seven Kingdoms, and Sam asked what it was called, and the archmeister said something which Sam thought was really boring. And the history wasn't really accurate because of course the archmeister hadn't been there at those historical events or known the people involved, it was all second hand.

I've got this idea that the very end of the show will be 40-50 years into the future, and Sam's now an old man and the archmeister at the citadel, and he's modernised the institution and allowed women to join, and he's just finishing a book about the history of the Seven Kingdoms, and the people who saved it - the true history, about Jon and Dany and everything, because he was there, he knew and met everyone involved, except Cersei I think. And the final shot is of him finishing it, and remembering his old friends, now long dead, before he literally closes the book on history, and we see the title: A Song of Ice and Fire.

Oddly I got a little bit teary eyed typing that! The ending is going to be upsetting, isn't it?

 

[Looney]

When Sam was at the citadel the archmeister whatshisname - the character played by Jim Broadbent - was writing a history of the Seven Kingdoms, and Sam asked what it was called, and the archmeister said something which Sam thought was really boring. And the history wasn't really accurate because of course the archmeister hadn't been there at those historical events or known the people involved, it was all second hand.

I've got this idea that the very end of the show will be 40-50 years into the future, and Sam's now an old man and the archmeister at the citadel, and he's modernised the institution and allowed women to join, and he's just finishing a book about the history of the Seven Kingdoms, and the people who saved it - the true history, about Jon and Dany and everything, because he was there, he knew and met everyone involved, except Cersei I think. And the final shot is of him finishing it, and remembering his old friends, now long dead, before he literally closes the book on history, and we see the title: A Song of Ice and Fire.

Oddly I got a little bit teary eyed typing that! The ending is going to be upsetting, isn't it?

Interesting theory. I wonder if Bran is a reason Sam might stay in Winterfell, though I'm not sure Bran is staying in Winterfell. He should. It seems ridiculous that he wouldn't, but then again in such a public place people coming to him or placing him on a pedestal would become a problem.

I have to say I would be more emotional if I was enjoying what is happening more. I mean I have emotions about it, but I am disappointed with where they appear to be going so I'm more weary than sad. Of course by the end I'm sure I'll be overcome.

 

[Looney]

SO I was reading the "Predictions and expectations" thread started by Springer in the B5 World Forum and it got me thinking. While I think it worked in B5 to have the Shadow War end before the Civil War, I don't believe this same dynamic is working in GAME OF THRONES - (I do think they stole it from B5 though.) Unlike B5 the Rebels do not have the backing of everyone else. For the most part Sheridan had every Alien race backing his play to some degree. Daenerys and Winterfell do not. We now know they will have the backing of Dorne, which the show hasn't really played up but should be a pretty big deal. I believe at one point in Season Four or Five it was mentioned that Dorne is very large and has a very large army, which is why Robert never enforced total compliance. But the rest of the Seven Kingdoms are torn and Cersei has The Golden Company and Euron's apparently totally invincible and tactically perfect Navy - I mean seriously where is Yara Greyjoy even supposed to get the ships to stand up to him?! I mean we're supposed to believe there was enough passage of time for him to build all of these awesome ships, but with best logic Yara is going to end up with less than three months. That is saying some fudging around when we last saw her and the fact that it should take Jon Snow a month to a month and a half to march to King's Landing.

Anyway, my point is that GAME OF THRONES would have been much better off having the "game" be settled and a united Westeros / Essos battle against The Night King, but maybe that is being saved for the books. I mean I know the "game" is the whole focus of the series and I now believe no one will sit on the throne and instead they will opt for a democratic representative form of government, but the war with The Night King had so much more at stake.

 

[Springer]

That was an incredible episode. Red Wedding levels of shocking. And now we know why the battle against the White Walkers had to end first!

My first reaction was, 'why is she doing this?' It would have been one thing to attack the Red Keep and there be collateral damage, but to go street by street and 'burn them all'? I wondered if it was too severe a change for Dany's character, but thinking back, I don't think it is. In fact the show has constantly been warning us, and we've just not been paying attention.

In season 1 she burned the witch. In season 2 she locked her friend in a vault to starve/suffocate to death, and threatened the masters of Qarth that she'd come back and burn down the city if they didn't support her. In season 3 she burned Astapor and stole an army of killing machines (it was no surprise to see the Unsullied sack King's Landing, they were trained to kill infants as part of their final test). In season 4 she massacred the masters of Mereen even if they were innocent. Season 5 she killed Mossador without a trial, Season 6 she burned the khals, gave that speech to the Dothraki on the back of Drogon about conquering Westeros, and then told Tyrion she was going to crucify the masters, burn their ships and 'return their cities to the dirt' only for Tyrion to talk her out of it. In season 7 she burned the Tarlys and continuously threatened to burn King's Landing to the ground only for Tyrion and Varys and Jon to talk her out of it on each occasion. And in season 8, in quick succession, she's lost her two closest friends and advisors, seen her army cut in half, faced certain death against the dead, and lost another of her dragons. It was just too much for her and she snapped, with nobody left to restrain her. I think the moment Missandei was beheaded, Daenerys decided she was going to destroy King's Landing. To her the civilians weren't innocent, because they hadn't overthrown Cersei themselves.

So the signs were all there that this is her true nature, even if I didn't want it to turn out this way for her. Will she feel remorse next episode? Will she have internal conflict? Or is she now in full 'mad queen' mode? Either way, Jon and Tyrion will be her next targets, followed by Winterfell. If ever there was a time for Bran to actually do something and warg into Drogon, now is the time!

Prediction: Jon will take the throne because he will feel a sense of duty to repair the damage - he will feel guilty that he didn't stop Dany.

 

[Looney]

Well logic dictates that Jon and Tyrion are done. Who would ever listen to a word they say again?! The only thing that could save Jon's image is the fact that he could get close enough to Drogon to kill Drogon. Like Springer says, Bran is also a possibility.

Yes all of the signs have always been there. And what this season has done is remove all of the individuals who inspired Daenerys to be better than just a megalomaniac with delusions of grandeur. That still doesn't mean they didn't just destroy the entire franchise. Daenerys was supposed to be a beacon of hope who was learning why it wasn't enough to just think you deserved to rule. She did not deserve this fate. And like I said, this pretty much ruins Jon and Tyrion. I actually hope she is headed for Sansa now before turning her attention to Jon and Tyrion. Sansa did not deserve this fate either, but now I hate her for betraying Jon.

I am also pissed about Varys, but as soon as I saw him writing I knew he sealed his own fate. It is one thing to talk about a thing, but he was taking action. And say what you will about him seeing the signs of her madness his character needed to have faith instead of drifting whereever he thought the winds were blowing. That would have been his saving grace and instead they ruined his whole character.

And WTF with Qyburn?!?!?!?! There was supposed to be some big master plan revealed and BAM - Nothing. - Honestly he may not be dead. I just feel there could be more there when I remember how they found him.

And so unsatisfying for Cersei other than logically they should never know if she lived or died, so that will drive them all crazy. I still think there is a chance the series will end with her crawling out of the rubble and into the little boat that was waiting and head off to a life no one will ever know about.

The only satisfaction I actually had was the Battle of The Hound and The Mountain. I would have preferred The Hound just cut The Mountain's head off and leave, but demonstrating that he defeated him multiple times, but he couldn't be killed was fine too. The Hound was pretty much always slated to die in fire, so that was an okay ending. Not the one I really wanted, but it was okay.

So I hated this episode and I hope it destroys all future growth of the franchise. I wanted a satisfying ending where characters were not given fates they didn't deserve for the shock value of doing the unexpected. There was no intelligence behind this. Yes the series has always pointed toward this possibility with Daenerys, but she should have gotten better than this. Maybe not the throne, but not this. This was done for the surprise and the visuals of watching The Iron Throne and everything around it burn, though I note they never actually showed the Throne Room. Like I said, logically this should be the ruination and possible death of Tyrion and Jon as well as Daenerys and Drogon. Why would anyone who is a fan of this show want to see this happen?

 

[Springer]

Daenerys was supposed to be a beacon of hope

This makes me think of Anakin Skywalker, and a tearful Obi-Wan yelling at him, "but you were the chosen one". Both Anakin and Dany have lots of good in them, and are hailed as saviours, but in the end give in to hate and anger.

who was learning why it wasn't enough to just think you deserved to rule.

Was she? I don't think she was. She was talked out of doing things by the people around her, but when did we ever see her take things on board as a better way of ruling?

Well logic dictates that Jon and Tyrion are done. Who would ever listen to a word they say again?! The only thing that could save Jon's image is the fact that he could get close enough to Drogon to kill Drogon.

The only thing that Jon and Tyrion did wrong was to place trust Dany's better instincts. We, the audience, also placed trust in her, and we feel betrayed by that, and we're meant to feel betrayed. That's what makes Game of Thrones more than just another TV show. Jon and Tyrion will feel betrayed. But aside from trying to talk her out of it, what more could they have done?

She did not deserve this fate.

No, perhaps she didn't. It's a tragedy, but that's the point, that the thirst for power, and war, can turn people into monsters. It happened to Cersei, it happened to Stannis to an extent, and now it's happened to Dany. It's one of the messages that GRRM has said that he's trying to drive home in his books, contrary to traditional fantasy epics where the hero fights heroically for the throne and then rules peacefully. He's always said he's trying to subvert that kind of storytelling.

I am also pissed about Varys, but as soon as I saw him writing I knew he sealed his own fate. It is one thing to talk about a thing, but he was taking action. And say what you will about him seeing the signs of her madness his character needed to have faith instead of drifting whereever he thought the winds were blowing. That would have been his saving grace and instead they ruined his whole character.

He's always gone where the winds were blowing. He was all for Viserys in season 1. In the books he's not even a Dany champion, but instead favours another reputed Targaryen, who fans think might be a fake Targaryen.

Did you notice that Varys was trying to have Dany poisoned at the beginning?

And WTF with Qyburn?!?!?!?! There was supposed to be some big master plan revealed and BAM - Nothing. - Honestly he may not be dead. I just feel there could be more there when I remember how they found him.

I thought they just found him near death at Harrenhal?

And so unsatisfying for Cersei other than logically they should never know if she lived or died, so that will drive them all crazy. I still think there is a chance the series will end with her crawling out of the rubble and into the little boat that was waiting and head off to a life no one will ever know about.

It was a surprise that she died in the manner that she did, I guess we expected some kind of big showdown with her and Jaime and Arya. But she sealed her own fate with her actions.

I wanted a satisfying ending where characters were not given fates they didn't deserve for the shock value of doing the unexpected. There was no intelligence behind this... This was done for the surprise and the visuals of watching

It is the same ending that will be in the books. GRRM has said as much, so it wasn't just done for the visuals at all – this is the story that the screenwriters have been adapting all these years. If there's a criticism, maybe they needed an extra episode or two to show Dany's descent into despair and madness, but the production was maxed out just making these six episodes, and frankly the writers will say they've dropped enough hints in past seasons. In the books no doubt we'll get a better look at what's going on inside Dany's head, but that's the advantage and disadvantages of the two mediums.

Like I said, logically this should be the ruination and possible death of Tyrion and Jon as well as Daenerys and Drogon. Why would anyone who is a fan of this show want to see this happen?

I don't agree at all that it's the ruination of Tyrion and Jon. I don't see that at all. They were both completely shellshocked by what happened. GRRM has always said the ending would be bittersweet, well we now know what the bitter part is. As Ramsay said in season 3 to Theon, "If you think this has a happy ending, you've not been paying attention." Though of course, I want part of the ending to be happy, and we haven't had the 'sweet' part of it yet that GRRM promised.

So I hated this episode and I hope it destroys all future growth of the franchise.

I hope you don't get your wish, because I've thoroughly enjoyed every moment of it. Was it perfect? No, nothing is, and it's not usurped B5 as my favourite ever show, but it has come close. If you and I were writing it, we'd probably have the same ending as we've discussed, that after the fight for the throne everyone bands together and fights the White Walkers. But it's not our story, and the ending of the books and the show is just as valid.

The only things I would have really changed this season would be to have Jon and the Night King engage in a fight, make the killing of the Night king a little less anti-climactic, and to have had Jon not be so sidelined in the story. But we've still an episode left, so maybe it will be his time to shine.

 

[Springer]

I thought this was a very good article that looks at Dany's motives: http://watchersonthewall.com/daenerys-targaryen-throne/

 

[Looney]

I have no problem with Dany's motives. I have always felt her reasons for wanting to rule were flawed. The signs that this was coming were always there. The fact that all of the characters guiding her toward becoming the right kind of ruler have been steadily killed off only guided this further toward happening, so it isn't outlandish to think she could do this. The problem is that we are at the end of the story and this will be her fate and it is a fate she doesn't deserve. Instead of learning from all of the lessons she's been taught for eight seasons and making the right choices no matter what effect it would have on her becoming Queen we get that she learned nothing and deep down she always had a monster in her. I would have been fine if she didn't become Queen or somehow accepted being Queen was not her only fate. And honestly, her death would have been better than this villainous turn. I mean I didn't want to see her and Jon get married and rule together because that just seemed too much like a fairy tale and quite a bit sexist. But death or anything else would have been better than making her a monster and the end of the series.

And as I said, logically she should be taking Jon and Tyrion down with her, fates they don't deserve. Best case scenario, Jon kills Dany and Drogon then, as I heard someone fortell today, returns north of The Wall or back to Eastwatch to help rebuild The Wall. I feel all threats from a Night King or Night Queen should be over, but it is a TV show that wants to do the unexpected. But back to how she has ruined them. The society who remain should want Jon and Tyrion dead as well as Dany. It doesn't matter that they were acting in good faith. They convinced thousands to follow her and she burned everyone.

And like I said, Varys was always getting better throughout the show. To show that in the end he was always just going to go where the wind blew was a horrible fate to cast on him. His motives were pure and they turned that into someone who could just never commit.

Okay I wish I had more energy, but I am OUT!

 

[Demonn]

All I'm gonna say is... Arya... on a pale horse. Dany go sleepy if she be bad, bad.

 

[Looney]

All I'm gonna say is... Arya... on a pale horse. Dany go sleepy if she be bad, bad.

:guffaw: :guffaw: :guffaw:

As much as I would like to agree I feel that Jon and Arya are the obvious choices. Yes it might be one of them, but I think it could also be Tyrion. And the more talk I hear the more I am starting to think she may not get it in the end. She may be forced to live with what she has done. But who knows. I do know that after the last episode I wouldn't be surprised if Arya is done with death. Of course I could say any one of a million things because that is where they have left us. Just predict every possible outcome and one of them will likely be right.

Jon kills Daenerys
Jon kills Drogon.
Jon kills Daenerys and Drogon.
Daenerys and Drongon kills Jon.
Daenerys kills Jon.
Drogon kills Jon.
Tyrion kills Daenerys.
Daenerys kills Tyrion.
Daenerys and Drogon kill Tyrion.
Arya kills Daenerys.
Daenerys and Drogon kill Arya.
Daenerys and Drogon kill Sansa. . . . .
Nobody dies . . . . .

You get where I am going with this and I don't think I need to mention all of those characters whom may not actually be dead yet. I mean we haven't seen corpses on Jaime, Cersei, The Mountain, The Hound, and Euron. Wait I guess we have seen The Mountain as an animated corpse. We just assume they are dead due to the circumstances they were left in. Euron most definitely should be dead or dying when we see him next, but I wouldn't put it past these guys to bring him back. And I still say there is a Qyburn return possible. He made The Mountain into something that could not be killed so maybe he did the same for himself, either before he was found half dead in Valar Dohaeris, 3.1, or during his free reign in King's Landing.

I did hear one that I think sounds logical. If Jon survives he returns either north of The Wall or to repair The Wall. I guess The Wall shouldn't need repaired, but I get the feeling they aren't willing to say the White Walker threat is gone forever. One definite thing that wouldn't surprise me is a series ending with a White Walker twist or a Night Queen twist.

Quick question Demonn. Is your Avatar supposed to look like a member of the Grey Council who has been taken by a Goa'uld from Stargate?

 

[Demonn]

It's Neroon with glowing teep eyes from Lyta... I darkened the face.

I do think Grey Worm will go after Jon... which will be the end of Grey Worm.

 

[Springer]

A beautiful, haunting ending. A truly wonderful series. My thanks to everyone involved in its production.

I think I'll try and make this my last post on GoT. Debating nitpicks about something this brilliant just doesn't seem right to me.

 

[Looney]

I couldn't disagree more. I'm sorry you don't want to debate things that are FAR MORE than "nitpicks". There was nothing "brilliant" about this season. There was nothing "brilliant" about the finale for most of the story arcs.

I've come to the realization that the complete mishandling of Season 8 was done on purpose. Clearly they were contractually obligating to not use certain finales that might appear in the novels. They also had to make the conclusion disappointing so people would seek out the final books looking for a satisfactory ending.

I will say that the finale was about the best they could have done after last week, but they even screwed that up.

Far and away the worst thing they did was allow Sansa to separate The North. That completely negated the entire point of going a new direction when it came to choosing a ruler. A separate North means there will never be an end to wars in Westeros. I doubt it would be under Sansa, but after she is gone there would be a story to tell about how The North eventually tried to invade The South or the South tried to invade The North. They could have been more impressive by having Sansa given into not getting her way and keeping Westeros united under her BROTHER for crying out loud.

The second worst thing they did was allow Jason to go North broken. I expected him to go North, but out of contentment not disillusionment. Yet another completely unsatisfying ending for a critical character.

There were other things I disliked and things that didn't make much sense, but for the most part I was satisfied with the ending for several of the other characters, especially Grey Worm and The Unsullied. That was a great ending for him. One thing the last few episodes did successfully illustrate was what Grey Worm really is, a weapon. The scene where Jon was trying to reason with him was great because we really saw there wasn't really mercy in him. This is someone who's been beaten his entire life into the instrument the last few episodes showed. Having him take the Unsullied to Naath was probably the best possible outcome.

Did anyone else get a strong Babylon 5 feeling? I mean I felt structurally this season dealing with The Night King before Cersei felt like the Shadow War before the Civil War, but in this last episode I REALLY felt like seeing the new council sitting around that table was like seeing the new Ambassadors and new people carrying on after others moved on to new things on Babylon 5. Only in Game of Thrones most of those continuing on were replacing those who did not have the same kinds of endings as those on Babylon 5.

 

[Springer]

I couldn't disagree more. I'm sorry you don't want to debate things that are FAR MORE than "nitpicks". There was nothing "brilliant" about this season. There was nothing "brilliant" about the finale for most of the story arcs.

I've come to the realization that the complete mishandling of Season 8 was done on purpose. Clearly they were contractually obligating to not use certain finales that might appear in the novels. They also had to make the conclusion disappointing so people would seek out the final books looking for a satisfactory ending.

I will say that the finale was about the best they could have done after last week, but they even screwed that up.

Far and away the worst thing they did was allow Sansa to separate The North. That completely negated the entire point of going a new direction when it came to choosing a ruler. A separate North means there will never be an end to wars in Westeros. I doubt it would be under Sansa, but after she is gone there would be a story to tell about how The North eventually tried to invade The South or the South tried to invade The North. They could have been more impressive by having Sansa given into not getting her way and keeping Westeros united under her BROTHER for crying out loud.

The second worst thing they did was allow Jason to go North broken. I expected him to go North, but out of contentment not disillusionment. Yet another completely unsatisfying ending for a critical character.

There were other things I disliked and things that didn't make much sense, but for the most part I was satisfied with the ending for several of the other characters, especially Grey Worm and The Unsullied. That was a great ending for him. One thing the last few episodes did successfully illustrate was what Grey Worm really is, a weapon. The scene where Jon was trying to reason with him was great because we really saw there wasn't really mercy in him. This is someone who's been beaten his entire life into the instrument the last few episodes showed. Having him take the Unsullied to Naath was probably the best possible outcome.

Did anyone else get a strong Babylon 5 feeling? I mean I felt structurally this season dealing with The Night King before Cersei felt like the Shadow War before the Civil War, but in this last episode I REALLY felt like seeing the new council sitting around that table was like seeing the new Ambassadors and new people carrying on after others moved on to new things on Babylon 5. Only in Game of Thrones most of those continuing on were replacing those who did not have the same kinds of endings as those on Babylon 5.

This really will be my last post on GoT (I promise!) as I don't want to argue, but the ending to the show, and people's reaction to it, have made me reconsider my attitude towards other stories, so I just want to go off on a tangent for a moment and talk about that as I think that's something that's important, to me at least. In particularity it has made me rethink my reaction to The Last Jedi, which I really didn't like, partly because I didn't think the story was very good, but mostly because of what the story did to Luke Skywalker. And I've come to realise, as I think about the furore over the ending to GoT, that I didn't like The Last Jedi because it didn't meet my personal expectations for what a story about Luke should be about, but the thing is Rian Johnson was under no obligation to tell a story to meet my expectations. He told the story that he wanted to tell, and maybe I need to watch it again but this time on its own merits rather than holding it up to the things I wanted it to be.

Very similar was my initial reaction to the battle with the Army of the Dead. I was subdued for a few days about it because I'd been expecting a Jon-Night King fight and it never happened, and I think I came on here and expressed my unhappiness with it. But after watching it more objectively a second time, I was happy with it - the writers were under no obligation to give me my Jon Snow-Night King fight. What they were obligated to do was to tell the story they wanted to tell, and they did that, and accepting that allowed me to see the full merits of the story they wanted to tell.

That's why the reaction from some fans about season 8 has disheartened me, because they are holding it to the standard of what they wanted to happen, or what they thought should happen in their opinion. Just look at all the discussion in here where we've said, it would have been better if they'd done this or that. The petition to have season 8 remade is as ridiculous as the petition to have The Last Jedi re-made. And that's the thing about your post above - all of that is *in your opinion* only. It's your personal view, and as your personal view it is completely valid for yourself, but (and please forgive me if I've misconstrued it) the way you've presented it is as absolute truth, which it isn't. Similarly, me thinking it is brilliant is only my personal view, it touched something in me but that's not to say it has to create the same feelings in other people; but given the effect it did have on me - and I'm talking about the effect both the ending and the series as a whole had on me - I personally do not want to argue over plot points as it will just drain my energy and my enthusiasm for something I love. And we know what Kosh says about truth anyway.

So yeah, I just wanted to write this one more post on the subject to say that Game of Thrones has made me reevaluate how I approach other stories, and hopefully it is going to make me a bit more open-minded in future. I appreciate the fact that it has forced me to do some thinking and evaluation. And the series, and particularly the ending, has had an effect on me almost as large as the effect B5 had on me (I was a teen when watching B5, so it had a big effect on me as I was still developing my world view, now I think Game of Thrones came along for me at the right time as an adult). If nothing else, it reminds me that in life stories can sometimes end in tragedy as they did for Jon and Dany, and that sometimes doing the right thing can hurt you personally more than doing the wrong thing, but because it's the right thing to do, you have to do it. Hmm, that sounds like it could be a message from B5 (although the ending reminded me more of the ending to The West Wing actually, in terms of a new government being formed involving some of our characters while other characters go on their way).

I will say though that the bit about deliberately 'mishandling' the ending so it will be different to the books - factually rubbish. Here's George RR Martin on the subject - he says any differences will be because there are more characters in his books, and what he calls the Butterfly effect, so it can't end up exactly the same, and that anyway, in his opinion story in the books and the series are both equally valid: http://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/2019/05/20/an-ending/

Anyway, I'm logging out now. Will be happy to talk B5 at a later time. (And I wonder, if this thread had been about watching B5 for the first time and reacting to it in real time, would the discussion be as harsh about its failings as the discussion is about GoT?)

 

[Looney]

This really will be my last post on GoT (I promise!) as I don't want to argue, but the ending to the show, and people's reaction to it, have made me reconsider my attitude towards other stories, so I just want to go off on a tangent for a moment and talk about that as I think that's something that's important, to me at least. In particularity it has made me rethink my reaction to The Last Jedi, which I really didn't like, partly because I didn't think the story was very good, but mostly because of what the story did to Luke Skywalker. And I've come to realise, as I think about the furore over the ending to GoT, that I didn't like The Last Jedi because it didn't meet my personal expectations for what a story about Luke should be about, but the thing is Rian Johnson was under no obligation to tell a story to meet my expectations. He told the story that he wanted to tell, and maybe I need to watch it again but this time on its own merits rather than holding it up to the things I wanted it to be.

Very similar was my initial reaction to the battle with the Army of the Dead. I was subdued for a few days about it because I'd been expecting a Jon-Night King fight and it never happened, and I think I came on here and expressed my unhappiness with it. But after watching it more objectively a second time, I was happy with it - the writers were under no obligation to give me my Jon Snow-Night King fight. What they were obligated to do was to tell the story they wanted to tell, and they did that, and accepting that allowed me to see the full merits of the story they wanted to tell.

That's why the reaction from some fans about season 8 has disheartened me, because they are holding it to the standard of what they wanted to happen, or what they thought should happen in their opinion. Just look at all the discussion in here where we've said, it would have been better if they'd done this or that. The petition to have season 8 remade is as ridiculous as the petition to have The Last Jedi re-made. And that's the thing about your post above - all of that is *in your opinion* only. It's your personal view, and as your personal view it is completely valid for yourself, but (and please forgive me if I've misconstrued it) the way you've presented it is as absolute truth, which it isn't. Similarly, me thinking it is brilliant is only my personal view, it touched something in me but that's not to say it has to create the same feelings in other people; but given the effect it did have on me - and I'm talking about the effect both the ending and the series as a whole had on me - I personally do not want to argue over plot points as it will just drain my energy and my enthusiasm for something I love. And we know what Kosh says about truth anyway.

So yeah, I just wanted to write this one more post on the subject to say that Game of Thrones has made me reevaluate how I approach other stories, and hopefully it is going to make me a bit more open-minded in future. I appreciate the fact that it has forced me to do some thinking and evaluation. And the series, and particularly the ending, has had an effect on me almost as large as the effect B5 had on me (I was a teen when watching B5, so it had a big effect on me as I was still developing my world view, now I think Game of Thrones came along for me at the right time as an adult). If nothing else, it reminds me that in life stories can sometimes end in tragedy as they did for Jon and Dany, and that sometimes doing the right thing can hurt you personally more than doing the wrong thing, but because it's the right thing to do, you have to do it. Hmm, that sounds like it could be a message from B5 (although the ending reminded me more of the ending to The West Wing actually, in terms of a new government being formed involving some of our characters while other characters go on their way).

I will say though that the bit about deliberately 'mishandling' the ending so it will be different to the books - factually rubbish. Here's George RR Martin on the subject - he says any differences will be because there are more characters in his books, and what he calls the Butterfly effect, so it can't end up exactly the same, and that anyway, in his opinion story in the books and the series are both equally valid: http://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/2019/05/20/an-ending/

Anyway, I'm logging out now. Will be happy to talk B5 at a later time. (And I wonder, if this thread had been about watching B5 for the first time and reacting to it in real time, would the discussion be as harsh about its failings as the discussion is about GoT?)

Yeah sorry, you only get one "LAST POST". I can't read the above because you already gave your final say. :guffaw:






You make valid points, but personal opinions and expectations aside there is a fundamental issue with storytelling here.

Side Bar for a moment: Did you post why you didn't like what happened to Luke? I mean I wish it had been handled differently, but when you know going into a story that a thing is likely going to happen then you hope they do it well. I didn't like it, but I thought it was maybe one of the best ways they could have done it. Other than that I didn't really like the other arcs that much. I really dislike Finn and I hated what they did to Chewbacca. Should we start a LAST JEDI THREAD? I didn't see one.

Okay so back to GOT and storytelling. I instead of "mishandling" and "done on purpose" I should have said they made mistakes possibly caused by limitations put on them because of the upcoming books. I just like the conspiracy theory angle so I took the mishandling angle, but the reality is they may have been told, "You can't do this, this, or this." no matter what anyone says to the general public. Of course they are all going to tell the media that they had all the creative control they wanted, but I highly doubt that was the case given they want to sell books in the future.

And back to opinions and expectations. I can honestly say I had no preconceived expectations going into the last few episodes other than what I didn't want to happen. I didn't want Jon to be King or Dany to be Queen (Until we knew she had really learned that it took more than birthright to earn the position.) Mostly I wanted people to have good endings. I honestly would have been fine if Jon or Dany had met a tragic death, but what was done to them was worse. Going into Season 8 I knew Dany was not ready to be the Queen that was needed, but yes I expected she would learn what she really needed to be. Was it you, Springer, who said she would end up needing to surrender herself for the good of the people? But no out of the hundreds of directions they could have chosen to go, including giving Jon and/or Dany tragic deaths, they chose to turn her into a monster and break him.

I think what is really at issue is the motives behind this finale. Is this the story they wanted to tell or did they just want to shock and surprise people? That is the problem. It has come to light that Dany burning King's Landing was a "last minute" decision. That says they were making things up on the fly and just trying to surprise and shock people rather than having some grand purposeful storytelling.

And as far as expectations go, this show ended up doing this far too often. So many good characters ended up with fates they didn't deserve. Some might say this means they were only staying true to form, but what does that accomplish in terms of telling a story? Who wants to know a story where the same things just keep happening? I mean even the "happy endings" side of this isn't that happy when you realize that Sansa separating means wars in Westeros will continue. This was the end of the story so we weren't supposed to get more of the same, but there has to be prequels and sequels.

Here is a good test, can you honestly say that this finale makes 8 Seasons of Game of Thrones a story worth watching again? Knowing how it ends what would be the point of sitting through it again? Great stories like Babylon 5 can be watched over and over again. What would be the purpose in sitting through Game of Thrones again? I mean I saw all the signs of Dany's madness the first time around; I just hoped the journey we were on was one of her discovery. But no, it was just all for nothing like so many character arcs in this show. Like I said, even death would have been better.

Final Side Bar: It is driving me crazy trying to remember what gave me the same epiphany you had about letting your own expectations cloud the experience. It was a long time ago. I keep thinking LEXX, but that show was too goofy to take seriously. If I remember I'll come back and post. It is the main reason I rarely go into any movie or TV show with expectations, but after 8 Seasons of GOT I expected a better ending. I expected some tragedy and would honestly have been fine with Daenerys not becoming Queen, but turning her into a monster and breaking Jon was just too much.

 

[Springer]

So about that last post on the subject thing... I think I was just getting irritated about all the criticism on the web about the show when I wrote that and was sulking a bit, but I'll try and stick to it (mostly!), but I think we're getting onto some interesting topics here about storytelling, which I think is fun to think about, so I'll keep posting

Did you post why you didn't like what happened to Luke? I mean I wish it had been handled differently, but when you know going into a story that a thing is likely going to happen then you hope they do it well. I didn't like it, but I thought it was maybe one of the best ways they could have done it. Other than that I didn't really like the other arcs that much. I really dislike Finn and I hated what they did to Chewbacca. Should we start a LAST JEDI THREAD? I didn't see one.

No, I didn't post here about The Last Jedi. I think I kept my own council about that. Maybe I could start a thread after I get chance to re-watch it and see if my thoughts had changed. But briefly, my main stumbling block was I thought Luke was acting out of character, but he is a childhood hero, so I was in denial about him being killed off so meekly. I think I need to overcome that attachment a little bit to give TLJ a fair airing.

But even when I was watching it the first time, I thought about how the heroes in the old Greek myths, and how they invariably had tragic endings. I mean, just look up what happened to Jason after his adventures with the Argonauts - he died lonely and miserable, sleeping rough underneath the rotting hulk of the Argo when the stern fell off and flattened him! Plus I think there's something about the story of a real hero who does the right thing but at great personal cost. I mean, did Jack Bauer ever get a happy ending? So I think both Luke Skywalker's, and certainly Jon Snow's endings, fall into this kind of tragic hero trope. I do think such endings are certainly a matter of taste and not everyone likes them. I don't think that is the fault of the writing or story craft, it's just personal taste.

And you know, like Ser Arthur Dayne was the fabled 'Sword of the Morning', I think Jon is now the personification of 'The Shield that Guards the Realms of Men'. Tyrion even called him that. Maybe if Westeros ever faces mortal danger once more, Jon Snow will return. I mean, they could build a whole legend around him, sing songs about his feats and his bravery - exactly like how Luke was turned into a legend at the end of TLJ. So I'm cool with Jon's fate, and maybe I should revisit what happened to Luke too (though of course there's still one more film to go, so maybe Luke's story isn't completely over yet)

Okay so back to GOT and storytelling. I instead of "mishandling" and "done on purpose" I should have said they made mistakes possibly caused by limitations put on them because of the upcoming books. I just like the conspiracy theory angle so I took the mishandling angle, but the reality is they may have been told, "You can't do this, this, or this." no matter what anyone says to the general public. Of course they are all going to tell the media that they had all the creative control they wanted, but I highly doubt that was the case given they want to sell books in the future.

I certainly can't argue that limitations caused by running out of source material affected how it was written. Whether that was a good thing or a bad thing I guess depends on your perspective, but they certainly would have had no choice but to adjust as best they could. I think it certainly caused them to streamline things. If and when the books are finally completed, it will be fascinating to compare the show and the books in a writing class and study how they both told the same story differently.

I think what is really at issue is the motives behind this finale. Is this the story they wanted to tell or did they just want to shock and surprise people? That is the problem. It has come to light that Dany burning King's Landing was a "last minute" decision. That says they were making things up on the fly and just trying to surprise and shock people rather than having some grand purposeful storytelling.

I think around the time of season 3 or 4, when they realised that Martin wasn't going to publish Winds of Winter in time and that the show was going to outpace the books, Benioff and Weiss went to stay with Martin for a few days to discuss basically where the story in the books was going, and what the ending was going to be. D&D said Martin told them three plot points that shocked them. One was Shireen being burned. Another was Hodor/Hold the door, and the third one, they said, was at the end of the story, which can only be Daenerys destroying Kings Landing and Jon being forced to kill her. So I don't think they made that up - that's from George's outline. Also in the books, Daenerys is given three prophecies about people who will betray her. One is Jorah, another I can't remember of the top of my head, but the third was a betrayal 'for love' which fits in with Jon, who she loved, killing her.

Where Martin says the books and the show will differ is in the details. There's a lot of extra characters in the books that are having significant influence on the storyline, so naturally things won't play out exactly the same because those extra characters will have a say. I reckon a good analogy is 2001: A Space Odyssey – the movie and the novel were produced synchronously, and they tell the same story, but differently (I much prefer the book).

And as far as expectations go, this show ended up doing this far too often. So many good characters ended up with fates they didn't deserve. Some might say this means they were only staying true to form, but what does that accomplish in terms of telling a story? Who wants to know a story where the same things just keep happening? I mean even the "happy endings" side of this isn't that happy when you realize that Sansa separating means wars in Westeros will continue. This was the end of the story so we weren't supposed to get more of the same, but there has to be prequels and sequels.

But isn't that also how Babylon 5 ended? Even after the formation of the Alliance, the same shit continued to happen as we saw in Deconstruction of Falling Stars. Besides, I had the impression that the political situation at the end of the show implied there would be peace - at least for the foreseeable future.

Here is a good test, can you honestly say that this finale makes 8 Seasons of Game of Thrones a story worth watching again? Knowing how it ends what would be the point of sitting through it again? Great stories like Babylon 5 can be watched over and over again. What would be the purpose in sitting through Game of Thrones again? I mean I saw all the signs of Dany's madness the first time around; I just hoped the journey we were on was one of her discovery. But no, it was just all for nothing like so many character arcs in this show. Like I said, even death would have been better.

I'm already eyeing up the 4K boxset if they release one (and will buy a 4K player to watch it on!), I've got all the earlier seasons on DVD/Blu-ray, so yes, I'll definitely rewatch it, over and over, and knowing the ending I think will enrich the experience. Let's face it, we'll be watching Daenerys from a different perspective from now on!

Final Side Bar: It is driving me crazy trying to remember what gave me the same epiphany you had about letting your own expectations cloud the experience. It was a long time ago. I keep thinking LEXX, but that show was too goofy to take seriously. If I remember I'll come back and post. It is the main reason I rarely go into any movie or TV show with expectations, but after 8 Seasons of GOT I expected a better ending. I expected some tragedy and would honestly have been fine with Daenerys not becoming Queen, but turning her into a monster and breaking Jon was just too much.

I only saw a few episodes of LEXX, it was definitely strange!

I asked the question earlier, if it had been B5 instead of GoT, how would we be reacting? I certainly remember the bitching after Z'Ha'Dum had aired. All the complaining: where did the Minbari ships that were guarding the station go? Why didn't Draal blow the Shadow ships out of the sky? Why did the Shadows not check Sheridan for weapons? How'd he get to that parapet? Why didn't the Shadows just shoot the White Star down? Lazy writing JMS!