Lochley - Good or Bad???

[Crusader]

Ive read differing things and there appears to be somewhat of a hatred towards Tracy Scoggins character. Personally i really liked her and i felt Ivanova was getting old and rather boring anyway. Thoughts???

 

[vacantlook]

When the show was first broadcast, I did have a distaste for Lochley because I liked Ivanova so much and Lochley felt too much of a replacement instead of a character on her own. But now, given time for the wound of Ivanova leaving to scar over, I've come to appreciate Lochley as a her own independent character. I do think that the season five telepath arc was definitely weakened by Ivanova's leaving, but I've tried to look at it the same way I look at the weakening of the Control personality arc that Takashima would have had.

 

[KoshFan]

Lochley never really bothered me or pleased me, but I definitely saw the need for her character. Sheridan needed someone he could trust and the other side in the Civil War could trust. If Ivanova had taken over running B5, it would have been as if B5 hadn't rejoined EarthForce at all.

 

[Crusader]

When the show was first broadcast, I did have a distaste for Lochley because I liked Ivanova so much and Lochley felt too much of a replacement instead of a character on her own. But now, given time for the wound of Ivanova leaving to scar over, I've come to appreciate Lochley as a her own independent character. I do think that the season five telepath arc was definitely weakened by Ivanova's leaving, but I've tried to look at it the same way I look at the weakening of the Control personality arc that Takashima would have had.

Hmm thats as good a reason as any. But i never saw it this way as i saw crusade before any seasons of Babylon 5, in which lochley appeared a number of times so i liked the character from there on. Speaking of Laurel Takashima ive heard nothing of what happened to her character after the pilot film, what gives??? lol

 

[vacantlook]

...Speaking of Laurel Takashima ive heard nothing of what happened to her character after the pilot film, what gives???

I don't know what jms considers to have fully happened to her character now, but originally, Takashima was going to be the character to have the PsiCorps's "Control" personality (that hidden personality that's revealed to be in Talia) implanted in her. It was under the Control personality that Takashima was going to have been the one to shoot Garibaldi in the back at the end of season one. Takashima was only going to be in the show for about two or so seasons and would eventually be replaced by Ivanova after Takashima was revealed as Control. Ivanova was going to be introduced before Takashima was revealed as Control in a sort of position that Lt. Corwin had on the show and to be promoted to Lt Commander when Takashima was revealed.

Here are some of jms's words on it.

 

[Crusader]

Ok, why didnt Takashima appear in season 1 then. Did the actress nt want the job after the pilot?? or was JMS dissatisfied with her??? or was she eaten by a Pak'Mara???

 

[Jan]

Ok, why didnt Takashima appear in season 1 then. Did the actress nt want the job after the pilot?? or was JMS dissatisfied with her??? or was she eaten by a Pak'Mara???

According to Script Book #1:

...Warner Bros. was not convinced of Tamyln's performance as a member of the military. The latter was the most frustrating to me because when we shot the pilot, she demonstrated those characteristics admiarble; but when WB saw the pilot they wanted her character softened, made more "relatable," so the insisted we have her re-voice her entire performance with a softer, and more (in their opinion) feminine tone. So you can imagine my frustration when, based on the finished film, they decided that her performance wasn't commanding enough, because it was just fine before they started messing with it.

Jan

 

[vacantlook]

In addition to what Jan's posted,...

There was about a year between the production of The Gathering and the production of the series itself. Babylon 5 was sold as a part of a syndication package called PTEN along side other shows. Those other shows took ass-long amounts of time to get their production capability up to a level that would enable them to actually make a show on a weekly basis. Despite being ready to produce a series within months of finishing producing The Gathering, Babylon 5 had to sit and wait until those other shows were ready to go too since they were all part of a package of programs. Thus about a year passed. That amount of time passing triggered the expriation of the pick-up options in the actors' contracts, which means that the show had to renegotiate the contracts with the actors come time that they were given the go-ahead to start producing episodes of the show by WB. For various reasons I would assume, the actors playing Takashima, Lyta, Dr Kyle, and Carolyn were not able to arrive at a renegociated contract.

Speaking specifically about Tamlyn Tomita, she had eyes for a film career, not a television one, which is part of what jms has said made her an attractive actor for the Takashima role because it was designed as a role that would terminate in two years or so. But with the amount of time that passed between production of The Gathering and the series, I guess Tamlyn desided to just go ahead and move on from B5 then.

 

[KoshN]

Ive read differing things and there appears to be somewhat of a hatred towards Tracy Scoggins character. Personally i really liked her and i felt Ivanova was getting old and rather boring anyway. Thoughts???

I voted "Hell no." but it's not necessarily because I miss Ivanova. It's because Ivanova would have been much, much better in the role of Babylon 5 commander. From the very beginning, I've thought that it was a terrible, TERRIBLE case of miscasting to have Tracy in this role. Tracy's striking (glaring) looks and physique, which there seems to be no way to soften, and her voice just do not fit, and distract from the stories, dominating every scene she's in. I can see her as a fitness instructor, a female bodybuilder, a saloon girl, a callgirl, a tramp, or the other woman, but not as the commander of Babylon 5.

I've got nothing against Tracy personally, but here she was simply miscast, and her acting skills cannot bridge the gap. With her looks, I'm not sure anybody's acting skills could bridge the gap.

Ivanova/CC could look buttoned-up and be the commander, but she could also put on that little black dress and go out to Fresh Aire. She could kick ass in a barfight or look drop dead gorgeous sitting at the bar. Her voice had more range (of sounds, frequencies, etc.), and could emote more. Her facial expressions can vary quite a bit. Ivanova/CC is more verastile. She's sort of like the Swiss Army Knife, and can cover a wide range of things.

Tracy looks buttoned up or casual, and her voice has one note and can only vary in volume. Tracy's like a pocket knife with one blade. You can't do as much with it. She can fit in the roles I mentioned above, but outside of those, she sticks out like a blinding white light is a black room.

 

[A_M_Swallow]

I voted "Hell no." but it's not necessarily because I miss Ivanova. It's because Ivanova would have been much, much better in the role of Babylon 5 commander. From the very beginning, I've thought that it was a terrible, TERRIBLE case of miscasting to have Tracy in this role. Tracy's striking (glaring) looks and physique, which there seems to be no way to soften, and her voice just do not fit, and distract from the stories, dominating every scene she's in. I can see her as a fitness instructor, a female bodybuilder, a saloon girl, a callgirl, a tramp, or the other woman, but not as the commander of Babylon 5.

I've got nothing against Tracy personally, but here she was simply miscast, and her acting skills cannot bridge the gap. With her looks, I'm not sure anybody's acting skills could bridge the gap.

I agree. Tracy can plan the sexy girlfriend, which was her role in Crusade. The ruthless military commander is not.

 

[Jade Jaguar]

I agree. Tracy can plan the sexy girlfriend, which was her role in Crusade. The ruthless military commander is not.

Hmm... Well, to me, she always seemed cold and distant, which is why I didn't like her, those being qualities of someone ruthless...

 

[GKarsEye]

Maybe you guys just have a problem taking a beautiful woman seriously as an authority figure. I could even give the argument credibility if she looked soft and acted all flirty or too young or something traditionally associated with a trophy girlfriend (i.e., the Aerosmith video/Clueless chick as Batgirl- oh man that still makes me giggle).

But Scoggins is lean, muscular and has the wiry athleticism that is completely believable as a soldier. She also looks the right age, and I've never seen act the cupy-doll role. Basically, she could kick any of our asses.

The reason I'd rather have had Ivanova is because of what would've happened with the story had she stayed. I think by this point the B5 knows what that would've been, and it would've made the first half of season 5 as awesome as season 3-4, instead of the flat loss of potential we got stuck with.

The fact is, you can't introduce a new major character in the last season of a series and expect it to have serious impact. But I think Scoggins would have made a killer Ivanova and Lochley was as believable as any other female authority figure in the show.

I know I've smashed Claudi Christian's acting before, but I recently watched Freaks and Geeks and she's just fine as the troubled mother of one of the geeks. Maybe she was just directed poorly. We know that the writing and directing team gave the actors a lot of leeway, but maybe CC just needed more guidance.

 

[KoshN]

I agree. Tracy can plan the sexy girlfriend,

That's another role she can play well.

...which was her role in Crusade.

Well.....that was part of her role in Crusade, and probably why she fit better in Crusade.

The ruthless military commander is not.

Ruthless? C'mon, she isn't playing a Klingon. Apologies for using a Trek term in a B5 discussion, but I couldn't think of a suitably well known, one-dimensional B5 example.

 

[KoshN]

Hmm... Well, to me, she always seemed cold and distant, which is why I didn't like her, those being qualities of someone ruthless...

No, that tenseness is Tracy overcompensating to be taken seriously as Lochley, and Lochley overcompensating to be taken seriously as the station commander.

 

[KoshN]

Maybe you guys just have a problem taking a beautiful woman seriously as an authority figure.

Then how is it that I can take Ivanova seriously as an authority figure? I also have no trouble taking the following women seriously as an authority figures.

Emily Procter as Calleigh Duquesne (CSI Miami)
Sasha Alexander as Caitlin "Kate" Todd [ 1-2 ] (NCIS)
Lauren Holly as NCIS Director Jenny Shepard [ 3- ] (NCIS)
Cote de Pablo as Ziva David [ 3- ] (NCIS)
Lola Glaudini as Elle Greenway [ eps 1-28 ] (Criminal Minds)
Paget Brewster as Emily Prentiss [ eps 31- ] (Criminal Minds)
A.J. Cook as Jennifer "JJ" Jareau (Criminal Minds)
Melina Kanakaredes as Det. Stella Bonasera (CSI-NY)
Anna Belknap as Det. Lindsay Monroe [ 2- ] (CSI-NY)
Marg Helgenberger as Catherine Willows (CSI)
Jorja Fox as Sara Sidel (CSI)
Louise Lombard as Det. Sofia Curtis (CSI)
Liz Vassey as Wendy Simms (CSI)
Jeri Ryan as Jessica Devlin (Shark)
Sophina Brown as Raina Troy (Shark)
Sarah Carter as Madeline Poe (Shark)

I could even give the argument credibility if she looked soft and acted all flirty or too young or something traditionally associated with a trophy girlfriend.

Wait. Why does it have to be "if she looked soft and acted all flirty or too young or something traditionally associated with a trophy girlfriend" ? Ivanova/CC didn't do that, looked softer (less stern) and yet fit the role of a commanding officer. Lochley fit better when she began to loosen up and act like a human being in Crusade.

But Scoggins is lean, muscular and has the wiry athleticism that is completely believable as a soldier.

It's more believable as a fitness instructor or somebody who spends a great deal of time working out, and not much time doing anything else.

The fact is, you can't introduce a new major character in the last season of a series and expect it to have serious impact.

True, plus we don't know how many actresses showed up to audition for the role of Lochley. Also, the short time that they had to do the casting must have made it a real problem (...a problem they shouldn't have had because CC shouldn't have bailed right before the last season was going to start shooting, with several scripts including her character already written.[1]).

But I think Scoggins would have made a killer Ivanova and Lochley was as believable as any other female authority figure in the show.

I HIGHLY doubt that. For one thing, I don't think Scoggins could deliver the comedic lines as well as CC if Scoggins lived to be a hundred.

I know I've smashed Claudi Christian's acting before, but I recently watched Freaks and Geeks and she's just fine as the troubled mother of one of the geeks. Maybe she was just directed poorly. We know that the writing and directing team gave the actors a lot of leeway, but maybe CC just needed more guidance.

IMHO, CC was perfect as Ivanova after the first few episodes. Ivanova was quirky, comedic (wry sense of humor), serious, feminine, commanding, and caring. She could pull it off. I don't think Tracy could do that. She doesn't have as much range.

BTW, did you notice the blatent Ivanova line JMS gave Tracy in "Over Here" ?

Spoiler for Lochley's Ivanova line:

"So, uh, after all this time, this by you is Hello?"

[1] I feel the same way about Mandy Patinkin bailing on "Criminal Minds" right before the first episode of the new season was going to shoot (with several scripts including his character already written). It's not being a team player and it's not professional. It's discourteous to everybody involved with production of the show. I plan to avoid any show he's on in the future.

 

[Jan]

It's more believable as a fitness instructor or somebody who spends a great deal of time working out, and not much time doing anything else.

You make it sound like Tracy/Lochley looks like some kind of body builder which couldn't be farther farther from the truth.

True, plus we don't know how many actresses showed up to audition for the role of Lochley. Also, the short time that they had to do the casting must have made it a real problem (...a problem they shouldn't have had because CC shouldn't have bailed right before the last season was going to start shooting, with several scripts including her character already written.[1]).

First, finding actors to audition is never really difficult in LA. Second, there were no scripts at all completed, only some notes and script fragments. Third, from Script Book Volume 11:

Strong parts for women as career soldiers, fighters, or officers are few and far between. As a result, the skill set needed to portray those characters is equally hard to find.

True to that assumption, we went through a lot of actors before Tracy
Scoggins entered our office and nailed the part in her first audition.

BTW, did you notice the blatent Ivanova line JMS gave Tracy in "Over Here" ?

Nope. What do you mean? I really think that JMS quite writing for Ivanova several years ago.

Jan

 

[KoshN]

You make it sound like Tracy/Lochley looks like some kind of body builder which couldn't be farther farther from the truth.

Not that extreme, no (She hasn't lost her top, and fills out the lingerie quite well in "The River of Souls".), but Ivanova/CC certainly looks more feminine (e.g. in the little black dress, in "The War Prayer" ). T&A are not all that makes woman/girl look feminine. Lochley/Tracy looks more like an athlete who happens to be female.

First, finding actors to audition is never really difficult in LA. Second, there were no scripts at all completed, only some notes and script fragments. Third, from Script Book Volume 11:

Strong parts for women as career soldiers, fighters, or officers are few and far between. As a result, the skill set needed to portray those characters is equally hard to find.

True to that assumption, we went through a lot of actors before Tracy
Scoggins entered our office and nailed the part in her first audition.

Wonder who else auditioned? We'll never know, that's for sure.

Nope. What do you mean? I really think that JMS quite writing for Ivanova several years ago.

It's in the spoiler. Unhide it.

 

[Jan]

Not that extreme, no (She hasn't lost her top, and fills out the lingerie quite well in "The River of Souls".), but Ivanova/CC certainly looks more feminine (e.g. in the little black dress, in "The War Prayer" ). T&A are not all that makes woman/girl look feminine. Lochley/Tracy looks more like an athlete who happens to be female.

Which would seem to be perfect for her role as a *soldier*, wouldn't it? It was that comment that you were originally replying to. What does femininity or lack thereof have to do with being a soldier, and therefore needing to be physically fit?

I'd invite you to compare Lochley in the first three episodes (No Compromises, A View from the Gallery and Learning Curve) to Ivanova's (Midnight on the Firing Line, Soul Hunter and Born to the Purple) and tell me which character loosened up more quickly.

Can you explain why that line should have belonged to Ivanova?

Jan

 

[KoshN]

Which would seem to be perfect for her role as a *soldier*, wouldn't it?

I guess, but Ivanova was fine as a soldier, too.

It was that comment that you were originally replying to. What does femininity or lack thereof have to do with being a soldier, and therefore needing to be physically fit?

It has to do with Tracy being able to pull off looks and scenes that are not of her being a soldier. I'm saying that Ivanova/CC was more versatile. Tracy was almost a one note player. Being able to pull off more looks and scenes makes for a more well rounded character.

I'd invite you to compare Lochley in the first three episodes (No Compromises, A View from the Gallery and Learning Curve) to Ivanova's (Midnight on the Firing Line, Soul Hunter and Born to the Purple) and tell me which character loosened up more quickly.

Naah, let's do the whole season.

Can you explain why that line should have belonged to Ivanova?

Oh come on, I can't believe you're asking that question. That's the way Ivanova spoke, but then again, so did Londo.

I think I'll vote for Marie Crane. .. I do not like Santiago. I always thought that a leader should have a strong chin. He has no chin and his vice-president has several. This, to me, is not a good combination."
-- Sinclair and Ivanova in Babylon 5:"Midnight on the Firing Line"


"Ah, for a moment I was thinking women, drinking and debauchery. I forgot I was speaking to a Minbari. This, by you, is a good time, is it? What else?"
"You must tell someone a secret that you have never told anyone else before. And you must give away something that is of great value to you."
"Ah, how positively festive!"
-- Londo and Lennier in Babylon 5:"Ceremonies of Light and Dark"

 

[raw_bean]

I think that's just JMS's characters talking the way JMS talks.

As for people having 'problems taking a beautiful woman seriously as an authority figure', do people really find Tracy Scoggins beautiful? I know it's in the eye of the beholder and all, but to put it politely I really wouldn't describe her looks that way.

And I'm with KoshN, she has a flat, monotonic voice and very little acting range. I never found her very convincing in much of anything (possible exception of Day of the Dead). It's a shame, because she seems like such a nice person and a huge B5 fan and supporter, and I don't feel at all good about ragging on her, but I think CC is a far better actress (and much more beautiful), and Ivanova a far better character.