A question about the "moment of perfect beauty"

[Great_Dying]

A question about the \"moment of perfect beauty\"

How did Kosh know about it?

Although you could here it from outside, Sheridan did have to climb through a series of narrow ducts to actually get the monks to start.
This leads to the obvious question of how exactly Kosh knew they existed.

Vorlon encounter suits don't appear to very flexible.
Mabee he got on his back and slid across the grating.

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"No, they never end as tales," said Frodo. "But the people in them come, and go when their part's ended. Our part will end later - or sooner." - Frodo to Sam in "The Stairs of Cirith Ungol" The Two Towers, The Lord of The Rings - J.R.R. Tolkien

 

[Quagmire]

Re: A question about the \"moment of perfect beauty\"

Well Vorlon's have exelent, and quite small, probes. I'm sure he has some throughout the station.

Some people believe that the singers were an illusion created by Kosh. I'm not convinced of this but hey, there it is.

Also Vorlons have quite extensive knowledge of other races. If a race makes a habit of singing in odd places Kosh would be aware of it.

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"This so-called new religion is nothing but a pack of weird rituals and chants designed to take away the money of fools. Let us say the Lord's Prayer forty times, but first, let's pass the collection plate."-Rev. Lovejoy in The Joy of Sect

 

[Jade Jaguar]

Re: A question about the \"moment of perfect beauty\"

I don't disagree with Dr. G, but another possibility is that Kosh shed his encounter suit near the entrance, and joined the monks in his true form. Or, he could have put a piece of himself in a human and directed them to the place, or perhaps he can just break off a piece of himself, without a host, for short periods or distances, to act as a probe. Of course, we never see that in any ep. Or, as we see with Kosh 2, he could have even left his encounter suit in his quarters, and passed through the solid parts of the station between him and the monks. I admit that it doesn't seem that Kosh would have just stumbled over the monks while roaming the station, but there are few obstacles for a vorlon!

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You're speaking treason! Olivia De Havilland as Maid Marian
Fluently! Errol Flynn as Robin Hood
You're talking treason! Olivia De Havilland as Arabella Bishop
I trust I'm not obscure. Errol Flynn as Dr. Peter Blood

Palindromes of the month: Lager, sir, is regal. Do geese see god?

 

[Jomar]

Re: A question about the \"moment of perfect beauty\"

I don't think we were ever told the real meaning, but I always assumed Kosh created the whole scene in Sheridan's mind by using the props that were there and making them appear to be monks chanting.

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[whitestar90]

Re: A question about the \"moment of perfect beauty\"

And Kosh has said numerous times -we listen to the song not the music.The meaning was in the chant....

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"When it is time, come to this place, call our name, we will be here" -Walkers of Sigma957

 

[bakana]

Re: A question about the \"moment of perfect beauty\"

The answer is obvious.

The Vorlon have been Everywhere!



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The 3 most common elements in the Universe:
Hydrogen, Greed, Stupidity!

 

[hypatia]

Re: A question about the \"moment of perfect beauty\"

Bakana, I was thinking the same thing. Maybe the monks are old friends of Kosh or the vorlons. Maybe it was created. But the vorlons seem to have been everywhere, as you say. Who knows what contacts/resources they've collected along the way.

I bet they have some kickin' math tutors in tow!

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"I do not believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense,
reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."-- Galileo

"I think I speak for Mr. Bloom and myself when I say: you are the only director in the World who can do justice to 'Springtime For Hitler' " - Zero Mostel, The Producers

 

[Jade Jaguar]

Re: A question about the \"moment of perfect beauty\"

WS, Kosh did say a moment of perfect beauty, which to many of us would include visual beauty, and the lighting effects were a rather nice part of the whole, so I think the meaning was in the whole experience, including the fact that it took place in a most unexpected place, which I think was part of the meaning. I can't prove it, so those who believe Kosh created it all, in Sheridan's head, or otherwise, could be right, but I think that at least the first monk was a real being, but perhaps he projected the rest into Sheridan's head. But to me, the message was that there is more to existence, even in lowly circumstances, than most of us believe.

------------------
You're speaking treason! Olivia De Havilland as Maid Marian
Fluently! Errol Flynn as Robin Hood
You're talking treason! Olivia De Havilland as Arabella Bishop
I trust I'm not obscure. Errol Flynn as Dr. Peter Blood

Palindromes of the month: Lager, sir, is regal. Do geese see god?

 

[hypatia]

Re: A question about the \"moment of perfect beauty\"

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jade Jaguar:
But to me, the message was that there is more to existence, even in lowly circumstances, than most of us believe.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nice observation, Jade Jaguar. Go to the head of the class! The specific details are not really the important point in that scene.

He he he, but please forgive us for our endless speculation. It's the only way to pass the time until January and the B5LR movie of the week airs!

We get fidgety when we have nothing to do!

------------------
"I do not believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense,
reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."-- Galileo

"I think I speak for Mr. Bloom and myself when I say: you are the only director in the World who can do justice to 'Springtime For Hitler' " - Zero Mostel, The Producers

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Re: A question about the \"moment of perfect beauty\"

The other way Kosh could know about the entertainment is by Psi scanning the whole of Babylon 5.

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Andrew Swallow

 

[hypatia]

Re: A question about the \"moment of perfect beauty\"

Are the vorlons powerful telepaths? I thought that was debated awhile ago on some thread.

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"I do not believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense,
reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."-- Galileo

"I think I speak for Mr. Bloom and myself when I say: you are the only director in the World who can do justice to 'Springtime For Hitler' " - Zero Mostel, The Producers

 

[bakana]

Re: A question about the \"moment of perfect beauty\"

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> Are the vorlons powerful telepaths? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, the way Lyta got into Vorlon space was by sending a Telepathic call. They answered.

Kosh contacted Sheridan over a distance of several Light Years when Sheridan was kidnapped by the Streib.

When Kosh is outside his encounter suit, he makes everyone see him as some sort of Angelic being, each from his/her own race.
Since we know Vorlons actually look like Squids, he's definitely messing with their minds.

When G'Kar invaded Londo's mind, Kosh intervened and gave G'Kar a spiritual revelation.

When Kosh was Dying, he came to Sheridan and spoke with him in his dreams.

When Lyta tried to read Ulkesh's mind, he KNEW instantly.


All these things indicate a Very Impressive telepathic ability.

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The 3 most common elements in the Universe:
Hydrogen, Greed, Stupidity!

[This message has been edited by bakana (edited October 25, 2001).]

 

[hypatia]

Re: A question about the \"moment of perfect beauty\"

Originally posted by bakana:
Well, the way Lyta got into Vorlon space was by sending a Telepathic call. They answered.

-- I forgot about that. I just thought they saw her there with technology.

Kosh contacted Sheridan over a distance of several Light Years when Sheridan was kidnapped by the Streib.

--That I remembered. I thought that might be part of the "a piece of a vorlon" thing

When Kosh is outside his encounter suit, he makes everyone see him as some sort of Angelic being, each from his/her own race.
Since we know Vorlons actually look like Squids, he's definitely messing with their minds.

-- I thought that might be camouflage. Wasn't sure. A kind of advanced changeling net.

When G'Kar invaded Londo's mind, Kosh intervened and gave G'Kar a spiritual revelation.

--Yes, but why does Kosh always seem to address those who are weak, sleeping, and the like? Perhaps it is a limitation to their abilities in this direction.

When Kosh was Dying, he came to Sheridan and spoke with him in his dreams.

When Lyta tried to read Ulkesh's mind, he KNEW instantly.
--but any telepath, even Ivanova, knows that

All these things indicate a Very Impressive telepathic ability.

--probably. I just remember a thread where some folk gave very good arguments that the Vorlons might not be much more powerful as telepaths than the people they manipulated to be telepaths

Anyhow, with so much negative debating going on, I guess I felt like flexing a bit on a subject that would be neutral, hopefully.

I wish I could remember why this point was debated months ago.

Good summary, too, BTW. Thanks.

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"I do not believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense,
reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."-- Galileo

"I think I speak for Mr. Bloom and myself when I say: you are the only director in the World who can do justice to 'Springtime For Hitler' " - Zero Mostel, The Producers

[This message has been edited by hypatia (edited October 25, 2001).]

 

[hypatia]

Re: A question about the \"moment of perfect beauty\"

Reading my last post, Bakana, made me think about my first-semester Physics lab T.A. in college. "Occam's razor, Occam's razor!" he always seemed to be saying. (Sorry if I've spelled it incorrectly.)

Occam's razor:
If two or more explanations are equally accurate in predicting a phenomenon, then the simplest explanation is the one that is closest to the truth.

That is very badly phrased, but that is how I remember it. Does anyone here know who Occam was? It's late and I don't feel like doing an internet search. Mabye tomorrow.

Anyhow, the strong telepath answer definitely fits the "Occam's razor" criteria, doesn't it? The simpler explanation.

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"I do not believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense,
reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."-- Galileo

"I think I speak for Mr. Bloom and myself when I say: you are the only director in the World who can do justice to 'Springtime For Hitler' " - Zero Mostel, The Producers

[This message has been edited by hypatia (edited October 25, 2001).]

 

[Kribu]

Re: A question about the \"moment of perfect beauty\"

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hypatia:
Does anyone here know who Occam was?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

William Occam (Ockham), an English 14th century philosopher.

Try this site for more information.

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"It's animal magnetism. What can I say?"
- G'Kar, A Tragedy of Telepaths
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[hypatia]

Re: A question about the \"moment of perfect beauty\"

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kribu:
William Occam (Ockham), an English 14th century philosopher.

Try this site for more information.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks, Kribu! This BB is a great source of info. I knew I didn't know how to spell his name. Anyhow, Ockham probably never benefited from this principal. But he certainly helped to shape the scientific method.

Thanks, Kribu!

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"I do not believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense,
reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."-- Galileo

"I think I speak for Mr. Bloom and myself when I say: you are the only director in the World who can do justice to 'Springtime For Hitler' " - Zero Mostel, The Producers

 

[Kribu]

Re: A question about the \"moment of perfect beauty\"

You're welcome, Hypatia.

And you spelled Occam correctly as far as I know... Ockham being his English name and Occam the Latin version of it - if I remember correctly, most mediaeval philosophers, no matter the nationality/country of origin, are better known by their Latinized names (probably because Latin was the language that most philosophy was written in, at the time).

I had rather vague memories of Occam myself... just remembered that we were told something about him back in my mediaeval aesthetics (he he, I just love the English way of spelling things!) classes.

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"It's animal magnetism. What can I say?"
- G'Kar, A Tragedy of Telepaths
Visit Kribu's Lounge - now completely ad-free!

 

[TheInfection]

Re: A question about the \"moment of perfect beauty\"

Remeber how Vir told how he and Londo heard the singing of Pak'ma'ra's in Sleeping In Light. He said that it was the greatest sound he ever heard (or something like that).

Perhaps Kosh knew that it was the time for the religious ceremonies of Pak'ma'ra and sented Sheridan there in the middle of them as they started to sing.

Just a tought.

Regards,
TheInfection

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Things change... long time gone by.

 

[Frizzell]

Re: A question about the \"moment of perfect beauty\"

The first time I saw "There all the Honor Lies" I thought that the chanters were Pak'mar'ra simply because I could not think of any other robed and slightly stooped beings on the station. When "Sleeping in Light" aired and Vir made that comment about Londo and the Pak'ma'ra, I thought eureka! It was the Pak'ma'ra.

The chanting automatically conjured up images of friars in my mind, but how would a bunch of monks arrive on the station without someone noticing? This fact led me to believe that Kosh created the "perfect moment of beauty" or knew who had great vocal chords.

*******

To be quite honest, I had forgotten how Lyta had alerted the Vorlons to her presence. I do not remember if I was a member when the great telepathic debate took place. However, I had always believed that Kosh had strong telepathic abilities because he could project himself into other people's thoughts. I had assumed this because, when Talia helps the underground escape from Bester, they said that she tipped the scales in their favor. Bester was a strong telepath, but we were coming to the understanding that Talia had become much more. She and the others were able to make Bester see what they wanted him to see. Kosh did the same thing, but he did it over long distances. That to me signaled a high level ability as there seemed to be no tricks or gadgets involved.

Frizzell


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"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in a confederacy against him."
-Jonathan Swift

"Good in theory...
Lousy in practice...
It implies that I am expendable. I am many things. I am bright, personable, charismatic and not a bad dancer but expendable? No."

 

[giffy]

Re: A question about the \"moment of perfect beauty\"

I had never reall thought that it could e the Pak'mar'ra , but I think your problably right. The Pak'mat'ra are simply there on the station, they have no real agenda or desire for conquest, they simply are experencing. Something as un-beutaful(from the outside to most people) turing in to something as beutaful as there singing is quite perfect. I think that it illustrates that there is beuaty in anythinkg and that beuaty no matter were is perfect because it is beautiful. In that nothing else matters.

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Scott Gifford

Please pardon the spelling errors, grammer errors and various sarcastic overtures