Aborted Reboot

[Republibot 3.0]

While watching Crusade, I was also never reminded of Star Trek. Beyond the basic format of a crew on a spaceship, the series was very different in tone, style, storytelling and characterization. The dense backstory, while not usually necessary to follow the storylines, really sets it apart.

And yet the planet-of-the-week format makes it kind of the same. And the top-down perspective of characters (Command staff and department heads) makes it similar. And the fact that it's set on what's primarily a research vessel which just happens to be a kickass warship makes it similar, too. And the whole 'boldly going where no man has gone in a really really long time' thing with the dead worlds. You've even got a five-year mission of sorts.

My point is not that it *IS* Trek, my point is that it (And virtually every other ship-based SF show since 1966) has been derivative of Trek. Personally, from the glimpse we got of it, I think it was better. I have faith in JMS, and I'm sure had the show continued, it would have been the best damned ship-based SF show ever. Honestly.

But all we've got is what we've got (To paraphrase Sheridan).

There is so much else happening around the galaxy, which we learn about in bits and pieces. The E... a good system for controlling them. As Dr. Kirkish said in Messages from Earth, “They don’t want it so they can fight these things. They want us to become more like them.”

No argument. As I said, I think it'd become a much better show than Trek and peers.

My *SUSPICION* is that the show was deliberately starting out from a position that would be familiar to most viewers. "Oh, it's like Trek," and then it would ratchet things up and up and up until it became brilliant, thereby exposing the lie that Trek was the most brilliant thing ever, or even a very good TV show. My first hunch when the series was done was that it was a kind of "Beat 'em at their own game" thing. A sort of "The other team has an OK premise. Here's what it'd be like if they had any clue how to use it."

The particulars of the Telepath War are generally unknown, but I think it was meant to be much bigger and uglier than people suspect.

I should hope so.

Parliament of Dreams humorously brought up the story of two races fighting for supremacy on Centauri Prime, with the Xon losing and being exterminated (I loved the scene of Londo’s feast). The Telepath War would be Earth’s version of this type of war, pitting Homo Sapiens against Homo Superior, but not so funny. Its end result is one that doesn’t satisfy anybody.

My own suspicion is that was a periscope from an earlier evolution of the story, that never came off. Remember Kosh said "They are a dying people." And there's the Xon thing. And then in season 5, there's the Hyach/Hyach-do thing, which makes it clear they're going gradually extinct because they wiped out the other sapient species on their homeworld. My huch is that was originally intended as a Centauri storyline, but it kept getting put off, and then it just didn't fit anymore, so it got reassigned to a species no one cares about.

I've never heard anyone else say that. That's all me.

. The remnants of Psi Corps are lurking in space, and JMS suggested they could return to their place of authority over human telepaths if the BTI doesn’t work out.

Interesting. I hadn't heard that. So why is Bester on the run in Crusade? Why isn't he with the Corps forces?

maybe he has an interest in writing more for Crusade, beyond penning its extended epitaph. He has said in the past that it’s a story he would like to finish in some way.

Here's hopin'!

I agree with KoshN, I’m not really interested in the storylines of ‘Lost Tales’ or ‘Legend of the Rangers,’ which seemed kind of thrown together.

No doubt. They were ad-hoc attempts to continue the Crusade storyline in another form.

But Crusade and the Telepath War are huge, compelling stories which are begging to be told. I would love to see a revival of Crusade on television, but the chances of that happening are, let me see, do a little math, carry the two, and… they’re zero.

I don't think they were that bad two years ago. The "Reboot."

There's "The Story" and "The Show." They're not the same thing. JMS had a story, and Crusade was the show he was going to use to tell it. That didn't pan out. He could, however, cook up another show to tell the story, and I think that's the point of Lost Tales and Rangers. "Story" and "Format" are not the same thing, so even if Crusade remains dead forever, it doesn't mean the story is dead, just one means of telling it.

Which is what, I think, the reboot was all about.

A Crusade movie would have to jettison almost all of the content planned for the series, and cram the rest into two hours. Can anyone imagine a film where all the carefully planned mysteries are resolved in quick succession, because time is a factor? It would not work well that way, it would lose the intelligence, the sense of wonder. They might as well throw in a pod race for the rubes.

I don't think that's ever been on the table. Not even remotely an option. And, yes, it wouldn't work. It'd be pointless.

JMS now has Studio JMS, publishes his own comics, and could probably get permission from WB to do B5 comics on his own, with total creative control. Unless there’s a spite factor between them.

I don't think there's any spite. JMS made Warners a lot of money, and they've been up for backing his projects. They didn't back 'em as solidly as they could have, granted, but they did give him more money than any of us will ever see in our lifetimes to do Crusade, Rangers, and Lost Tales. As to Lost Tales, it's not Warner's fault the straight-to-DVD market collapsed. That ruined a lot of people's plans for a lot of things. The movie fell apart because JMS didn't want to re-cast, and then Richard Biggs died. Warner's recasting decision is admittedly stupid, but I can see it from their POV: "We're blowing $50 mil on this thing, and the only star is the guy from 'Scarecrow and Mrs. King?' That wasn't even a good show!" I'm sure there's a great deal of annoyance, of course.

 

[ranger phil]

with some of the dross on TV at the moment, surely there has got to be some room for more B5?

 

[KoshN]

B5 and Crusade made me see the weaknesses in Trek and have absolutely no further use for Trek at this point. Sure, I may watch an episode of TOS or TNG if it comes on TV while I'm channel surfing, but I don't own any Trek on DVD, and wouldn't spend the money now for TOS or TNG.

Well, I finally saw TOS Seasons 1 thru 3 (Remastered DVD sets) at a price point I couldn't ignore, and in a fit of nostalgia, I bought 'em. :alienblush: So far, I've only watched "The Man Trap" and "Where No Man Has Gone Before." I wish Warner Brothers would show as much reverence for Babylon 5 as CBS has shown for TOS with these DVD sets.

 

[JonFrain]

A continuation of Babylon 5 is of no interest to me. The series finale was a fine end to that universe as far as I'm concerned. JMS lost something after Season 4 of B5. Season 5 was a major step down in quality. All of the TV movies were horrible other than In the Beginning and A Call to Arms. Crusade was just derivative tripe, and that goes for the unaired scripts. Sure TNT has some blame there, but what about Gary Cole being completely miscast and uninteresting? I've never once been tempted to rewatch that series or waste money buying them on DVD. One watch on TNT was enough for me.

LOTR was even worse. Lost Tales was a slight return to form, but it wasn't the budget that was the main problem.

If B5 returns I'd like to see it taken over by someone else. JMS got to tell his story and you're not going to be able repeat that magic with a new cast.

The simple fact is that serialized Television has come leaps and bounds since B5 aired. Classic B5 in reruns just can't compare. The special effects are terribly dated due to the use of low poly models.

 

[KoshN]

Psicorps is a huge bleeding hole in the narrative, though, I agree. that's got to be handled.

Other than The Telepath War, it WAS handled in the Psi Corps trilogy of novels. Only The Telepath War was skipped, left for a theatrical release or series of theatrical releases.

The books were more about Bester's fate than the Psi Corps. The war itself was not really covered and could sustain a series if blended with other elements.

That's why I said "Other than The Telepath War,..."

 

[KoshN]

A continuation of Babylon 5 is of no interest to me.

A re-telling or re-boot of "Babylon 5" is on no interest to me. I feel about this like G'Kar felt about the rebirth ceremony in The Parliament of Dreams. Paraphrasing: I've already been born once, and quite sufficiently, I think.

All of the TV movies were horrible other than In the Beginning and A Call to Arms.

I definitely find In the Beginning and A Call to Arms to be, by far, the best, but I didn't find Thirdspace or The River of Souls to be "horrible." I never liked Thirdspace, and would give it at most, 6 out of 10, but The River of Souls grew on me and I rate it a 7 out of 10, and compared to The Legend of the Rangers*, Thirdspace and The River of Souls are gems.

Crusade was just derivative tripe, and that goes for the unaired scripts.

IMHO, that comment is a steaming pile of BS. ��~~

Sure TNT has some blame there, but what about Gary Cole being completely miscast and uninteresting?

Originally, I didn't care for Gary Cole's casting in Crusade, but having watched the entire series many times and having read the unaired scripts, I came to agree with his casting as Capt. Gideon. I'd love to see a retelling of Crusade, with a new cast, following what was done in the aired episodes and the unaired scripts, fixing the problems caused by SOBs at TNT, and continuing from there as if TNT hadn't been SOBs.

An interesting idea might be who would the people here like to see cast in the Crusade roles, IF Crusade was retold and continued. It's like something we've been playing with on the John Butcher bboard regarding "The Dresden Files."

I've never once been tempted to rewatch that series or waste money buying them on DVD. One watch on TNT was enough for me.

That's too bad, because it you watched it in a better order (No order is perfect though, thanks to the SOBs at TNT-Atlanta.), you'd probably like it more. Also, as with B5, you would see stuff that you didn't notice on your first time through. HOWEVER, if you're 110% DETERMINED to hate Crusade based upon your first impressions, gotten during the 1999 TNT run, that's YOUR loss. If I came across any Crusade episode on TV today, I'd watch it. I can't say that for Trek (any of
em).

LOTR was even worse.

THAT was TERRIBLE. I rank it with the Dell novels 4 & 5, in awfulness. Crusade, watched in a decent order, is a couple orders of magnitude BETTER than B5:LotR.

Lost Tales was a slight return to form, but it wasn't the budget that was the main problem.

The small budget, in light of all the previously built up B5 & Crusade resources that were GONE (Poof!), was a HUGE problem. There was no money to RECREATE what should never have been lost (all the CGI files, and a lot of the costumes and props). Hell, the station looks like it had a smaller skeleton crew that B5 did in Sleeping in Light!. Also, IMHO, the first Lost Tale sucked. The SECOND was a return to form, but the TINY budget REALLY SHOWED throughout. C'mon, they had a doorway and a wall. THAT'S IT!

If B5 returns I'd like to see it taken over by someone else. JMS got to tell his story and you're not going to be able repeat that magic with a new cast.

I want to see JMS in charge, with creative freedom like he had with B5 (no damned meddlers!). That said, I am not AT ALL interested in a reboot. He ought to adopt Harlan Ellison's "pages taped to the store window" philosophy. I WANT TO SEE CRUSADE continued, somehow. Novels would be PERFECTLY A-OK with me. I'm completely OK with reading the rest of the Crusade story and visualizing the characters. Hell, that's almost as good as having it in DVD sets!

The simple fact is that serialized Television has come leaps and bounds since B5 aired. Classic B5 in reruns just can't compare.

BS! ��~~

The special effects are terribly dated due to the use of low poly models.

So, UPDATE the effects. Do it up right, at least as good as CBS did with the Trek-TOS Remastered DVD sets. C'mon WARNER BROTHERS, show some faith and spend some money!!!!!

The first half of Season 5, the Byron part, was a major step down in quality. 90% of this was caused by Claudia Christian going AWOL at the last minute before Season 5 was to begin production. However, the second half of Season 5 almost completely recovered from that. I say "almost" because we were still stuck with Tracy Scoggins. Still, once Byron was toast, things got markedly better.

AGREED!

* The Legend of the Rangers awfulness was caused by The Sci-Fi Channel wanting a different story, not a tying up of the Crusade dangling threads, AND was severely hobbled by the loss of 1993-1998 Babylon 5 and Crusade resources due to Warner Brothers near total lack of vision and faith, and a $3 million budget made infinitely worse by the lack of resources previously mentioned.

 

[Raw Shark]

PHP]Interesting. I hadn't heard that. So why is Bester on the run in Crusade? Why isn't he with the Corps forces? [/PHP]

I hope this quote thing works, grumble grumble...

Bester was described in the Psi Corps trilogy as an example of the most dedicated telepath the Corps had produced, an example to loyal telepaths everywhere. I read somewhere that the Telepath War's leaders would be Lyta for the Resistance, and Bester for the Psi Corps. Where was that, does anyone know? I'm curious. What could possibly bring Bester, a hard-charging field agent of Metapol, to lead the entire Psi Corps and its millions of subject telepaths? Someone nuked the Corps' headquarters and its leaders, which we saw, and no, it wasn't on Mars, the scenery is clearly on Earth. The Psi Corps base at Syria Planum on Mars had to be destroyed at another time. Following the attack shown in 'The Path of Sorrows,' the Corps is desperate after being beheaded, and they turn to arch-hardcase Bester to get things under control, after he has almost certainly proven his leadership abilities in the Telepath War already. After the war ends, and the concentration camps near Brasilia and elsewhere are revealed, the citizens of Earth are outraged (and probably millions of them have died in the war, that doesn't help much), and the most of the Corps leadership is arrested or dead. Bester is still free, somehow, there's probably a story there. So why wouldn't he be with the rest of the Psi Corps fleet, or whatever's left of it? 'The Corps is Mother, the Corps is Father' spelled it out nicely, he does not see telepaths as his friends, but his family, and he accepts responsibility for protecting them. In the wake of a war that likely kills most human telepaths, he would be visiting the backwaters of the Earth Alliance, risking his life to search for other telepath survivors. What a powerful instinct people have, to 'get the band back together.'

My first hunch when the series was done was that it was a kind of "Beat 'em at their own game" thing. A sort of "The other team has an OK premise. Here's what it'd be like if they had any clue how to use it."

Very well put. I think you’re right.

TNT is often cited as the main villain behind the decline of Babylon 5. I can't agree. The budget was lower on season 5, yes. Without TNT, there would have been no season 5 at all. As much as people hate the Byron storyline (not me, though), there were plenty of other episodes and events to make season 5 worthwhile. No one else would have picked up the series, it was TNT or nothing. They funded the re-editing of 'The Gathering,' which was originally clunky and had weird timing. I still like Copeland's opening theme, though. Without TNT there would be no 'In the Beginning' or the other movies, no Crusade, and probably nothing beyond that from anyone, the franchise would be kaput. They did these things on their terms, that's how sponsors work, he who pays the piper calls the tune. Of course there would be changes, of course budgets were an issue, and of course they cut their experiment off when the results fell short of their expectations. But in the end, TNT gave us all more B5, plus Crusade, and I for one am very glad they did.

Raw Shark

"Let's swim to the moon,
Let's climb through the tide,
You reach your hand to hold me, but I,
Can't be your guide..."

Moonlight Drive, The Doors

 

[vacantlook]

I think the biggest thing that hurt season 5 was the ending of the Earth civil war having been squeezed into the end of season 4, what with jms thinking they wouldn't even get a season 5 and all. If season 4 had ended with Sheridan's capture as the original plan was to be, then there would've been a ton of drama that we all know and love happening there in the beginning of season 5.

 

[ranger phil]

if battlestar galactica can get a remake, then i'm sure Babylon 5 more than deserves a reboot.

 

[JonFrain]

* The Legend of the Rangers awfulness was caused by The Sci-Fi Channel wanting a different story, not a tying up of the Crusade dangling threads, was severely hobbled by the loss of 1993-1998 Babylon 5 and Crusade resources due to Warner Brothers near total lack of vision and faith, and a $3 million budget made infinitely worse by the lack of resources previously mentioned.

I'm sorry but you can't blame Sci-Fi for LOTR. They didn't write the script, cast the actors or come up with that laughable combat system the woman was using. There was a hint of something great, and a series with recasting could have fixed a lot of it. But the night it aired I switched between it and the Patriots game. I had to rewatch it to see everything. I think the leads were pretty bad and G'Kar was misused.

Luckily I found Farscape, the Sopranos, Deadwood, Rome, Carnivale, The Wire, The Shield, BSG, Breaking Bad and Game of Thrones after B5. That's my golden age of TV (starting with B5).

I've tried getting many people to give B5 a chance and many simply refuse or give up early. Even when I tell them which episodes to skip.

It's too bad that there's no real venue for classic Science Fiction on cable TV. It's also too bad that WB will never pay the costs of updating the effects in B5, especially for the scenes where it's mixed with live action.

 

[Republibot 3.0]

A continuation of Babylon 5 is of no interest to me. The series finale was a fine end to that universe as far as I'm concerned. JMS lost something after Season 4 of B5.

Well, yeah, he lost a ton of money, two of his cast, and one shooting day per episode, which adds up to 3 lost weeks of production time over the course of the year. He also lost his outlines for the first batch of the season, *AND* he was doing those useles movies, *AND* he was getting Crusade going.

So basically what he lost was focus. He had too many irons in an unfriendly fire, and I think it drove the quality of the last season down.

As to Crusade, after it ended, there's the story that JMS was having dinner with Harlan Ellison, and the Harlan said "I'm glad that show's done. It wasn't your best work." So i wasn't just us fans who thought that.

I'd like to see more B5, but I have some reservations I'm semi-afraid to mention openly...

 

[Republibot 3.0]

TNT is often cited as the main villain behind the decline of Babylon 5. I can't agree. The budget was lower on season 5, yes. Without TNT, there would have been no season 5 at all. As much as people hate the Byron storyline (not me, though),

TNT isn't a hero, but they're certainly not the villain. They did what they could with the resources available, it didn't pay off for them, so they cut their losses. No harm, no foul, though I think Crusade should have gotten a full season before they killed it, I can see their reason for not doing so.

I've thought about it a lot, and I think there's several problems with Byron:
1) His episodes all come in a block, it's like a kidney stone you can't pass, and the rest of the season can't get flowing until he's out of the way. And he won't get out of the way.
2) Byron is inherenetly a superfluous character.

Think about it: We don't NEED Byron at all. We've got Lyta. What, Lyta has to be TOLD to lead the Telepaths? We've seen her grow more and more unhappy with the situation over the years, and get stronger both as a person and a teep. The idea that some man needs to come to the station and hold her by the hand and teach her how to be a leader is both ludicrous and condescending. I mean, does someone need to teach Sheridan how to be President? Or Garibaldi how to run Edgars? Did someone need to hold G'kar's hand and teach him how to be a poet/prophet guy? No. So why does Lyta need it?

I think the story would have played much, much, much better if Lyta just went to Sheridan and said "I want a homeland for my people. You owe me this." Sheridan could say something like, "Ok. We'll need time to negotiate this with the other races, and see if anyone is willing to donate a world. In the meantime, you can set up a colony on the station here." It could have been the exact same sub-par story otherwise, and it would have played much, much, much better.

Ideally, it should have been about Lyta, but really it was a story in which Lyta was second bananna.

 

[JonFrain]

TNT is often cited as the main villain behind the decline of Babylon 5. I can't agree. The budget was lower on season 5, yes. Without TNT, there would have been no season 5 at all. As much as people hate the Byron storyline (not me, though),

TNT isn't a hero, but they're certainly not the villain. They did what they could with the resources available, it didn't pay off for them, so they cut their losses. No harm, no foul, though I think Crusade should have gotten a full season before they killed it, I can see their reason for not doing so.

I've thought about it a lot, and I think there's several problems with Byron:
1) His episodes all come in a block, it's like a kidney stone you can't pass, and the rest of the season can't get flowing until he's out of the way. And he won't get out of the way.
2) Byron is inherenetly a superfluous character.

Think about it: We don't NEED Byron at all. We've got Lyta. What, Lyta has to be TOLD to lead the Telepaths? We've seen her grow more and more unhappy with the situation over the years, and get stronger both as a person and a teep. The idea that some man needs to come to the station and hold her by the hand and teach her how to be a leader is both ludicrous and condescending. I mean, does someone need to teach Sheridan how to be President? Or Garibaldi how to run Edgars? Did someone need to hold G'kar's hand and teach him how to be a poet/prophet guy? No. So why does Lyta need it?

I think the story would have played much, much, much better if Lyta just went to Sheridan and said "I want a homeland for my people. You owe me this." Sheridan could say something like, "Ok. We'll need time to negotiate this with the other races, and see if anyone is willing to donate a world. In the meantime, you can set up a colony on the station here." It could have been the exact same sub-par story otherwise, and it would have played much, much, much better.

Ideally, it should have been about Lyta, but really it was a story in which Lyta was second bananna.

Apparently Byron was supposed to be matched with Ivanova. Something along the lines of making up for her mistakes with Marcus. I don't think the story would have been much better with that kind of twist. The telepaths around Byron played like True Blood vampires or something. It was just a mess.

Having Ivanova would have removed Lochley though. That would have been a major improvement. You can tell from quotes that JMS treated the loss of Ivanova as being good for the story and adding tension. That may have worked with a better actress. But she got too much air time and even ruined Lost Tales.

The last impressive TV season I was impressed with from JMS was Season 2 of Jeremiah. But that was likely due to him pushing fast to a resolution before he left. Season 1 ended well but was very hit or miss with some naive scenarios, especially considering it was on Showtime which allowed for more adult content.

It's too bad that JMS doesn't like working in a writers room. He's a one man show and sometimes his limitations really hurt the final product. Some of the best shows in history have been collaborations of many talented writers. It allows for ideas to be bounced around and bad ones to be discarded. I think JMS has a glaring weakness in dialogue for instance that could be reduced with some solid writers.

JMS the person is great. But I've never felt the desire to join his cult or buy something with his quotes.

JMS was also adamant that Evan Chen was a good composer. But the soundtrack totally distracted from the material most of the time.

 

[Republibot 3.0]

Apparently Byron was supposed to be matched with Ivanova. Something along the lines of making up for her mistakes with Marcus. I don't think the story would have been much better with that kind of twist. The telepaths around Byron played like True Blood vampires or something. It was just a mess.

My best guess is it would have been some dopey crap like Byron chasing Ivonova, Lyta chasing Byron, and maybe Zac chasing Lyta, though I admit the last is rather unlikely. And eventually Ivonova comes to grips with what happened, blah, blah blah. I could - and likely am - completely off-base here in my assumptions, but it doesn't sound very GOOD, does it? And even if I'm wrong, I'm hard-pressed to think of something they could do that would make it good.

Honestly, they probably could have crammed the whole Telepath war into 7 episodes if they'd tried. IT's not like there was anything of note going on in the station.

Having Ivanova would have removed Lochley though. That would have been a major improvement. You can tell from quotes that JMS treated the loss of Ivanova as being good for the story and adding tension. That may have worked with a better actress. But she got too much air time and even ruined Lost Tales.

From what little I know of her personally, I like the actress as a person. As an actress, she's kind of inconsistent. I thought she was basically a waste of space in Season 5, I thought she was pretty good in Crusade. Lost Tales isn't her fault. Her only role in that is to stare in awe at the special guest star's rambling and the cheezy heavy metal music video special effects.

I should mention that I wouldn't mind the character *AT ALL* if she'd been brought in as, say, the new XO of the station. "Ivonova, you're in charge, but having a loyal Earthforce officer as XO would go a LONG way towards smoothing over difficulties, so here's Commander Lochley."

The last impressive TV season I was impressed with from JMS was Season 2 of Jeremiah. But that was likely due to him pushing fast to a resolution before he left. Season 1 ended well but was very hit or miss with some naive scenarios, especially considering it was on Showtime which allowed for more adult content.

I've found his obsession with one-act plays kind of distracting. I get the attraction. Everyone loves Rod Serling, everybody wants to write a classic twilight zone episode, but he likes them too much, and kept trying to cram 'em in, dropping more and more of the show's own format every time. It works in "Comes the Inquisitor," but it totally doesn't work any other time he does it (The worst two examples being "Over Here" and "Intersections in Real Time," but all of 'em are pretty awful)

I also found his lack of complexity in the movies annoying. I read in an interview something like he thought it was really cool to do standalone stories with no real subplots, or very little of 'em, and he thought that was fun. Well, alas, the only one of the movies that really works is the Crusade one, and that's because it *DOESN'T* do that. Honestly, the movies were just bloated and dull. How long does the fight scene in thirdspace go on? Like half an hour?

It's too bad that JMS doesn't like working in a writers room. He's a one man show and sometimes his limitations really hurt the final product. Some of the best shows in history have been collaborations of many talented writers. It allows for ideas to be bounced around and bad ones to be discarded. I think JMS has a glaring weakness in dialogue for instance that could be reduced with some solid writers.

Ok, I'm going to say the most arogant thing I've ever said, and I don't mean it with any disrespect, but here it is: JMS should not be in charge of the B5 universe anymore.

There comes a time in the career of every series creator/showrunner/executive producer/head writer in which they've taken something about as far as they can, and while there may still be other places to go, they'll never get there on their own. Maybe it's the stress, time involved, maybe it's the age, maybe it's an inability to keep up with changes in the medium, or maybe it's just what Peter Packer said regarding Lost in Space: "I just didn't have another goddamned idea in my head." It's not their fault. They did great work in creating the franchise, and running it, but entertainment is a team sport, and eventually even the best QB and/or coach just gets worn down and has to quit.

When they took Trek away from Roddenberry, it got better. Then the new guys stayed too long. It's been taken away from them, and it's doing better.

Star Wars has been taken away from Lucas, and everyone pretty much knows it'll get better.

Stargate SHOULD have been taken away from the powers that be over there prior to Universe, a show that indicated both boredom with the franchise and a disrespect for the fans, clear indicators that they shoulld no longer be driving that particular car.

Likewise, I don't think JMS should be driving the B5-wagon anymore. He can program the mapquest if he likes, he can cheerlead. I'd definitely want to read all his notes before proceeding, but the fact is that the guy has had 15 years to continue the story, and he hasn't, can't, or simply won't.

I don't claim to know who CAN, but clearly he's not going to get anywhere by himself.

All that said, I have great respect for JMS personally and creatively, just, y'know, it's time.

JMS was also adamant that Evan Chen was a good composer. But the soundtrack totally distracted from the material most of the time.

B5 music is a sore spot for me. I've always, always, always felt it was the weakest part of the series. I didn't like Christopher Franke with Tangerine Dream (Nor did I like Tangerine Dream much), I didn't like his solo work in B5. I can point to maybe three scenes in the entire run of the series that actually stood out. The show needed a better composer, like Joel Goldsmith, or Bear McReary (Who didn't really exist at the time), or Michael Giachino, or hell, even a talented synth noodler a'la Vangelis (or some Vangelis knockoff).

I genuniely liked the Evan Chen music on the show, specifically because it was slightly at odds with the action, and that little dissonance created some cool moments. When it came out on CD, I was pretty excited, and bought the CD, and, wow, it didn't work at all as standalone music. Since re-watching, some of the cues/scenes have grated on me a bit, but mostly I still like it for what it is. And I MASSIVELY respect it because it was trying something different and slightly risky, and because it wasn't Christopher Franke. So I can understand JMS' taste in this regard.

 

[Jan]

Just touching on one aspect of a really long post...

Are you under the impression that we saw the Telepath War? Because we didn't, not by a long shot. What we saw was a flashpoint and the process by which Lyta was brought from being a doormat to a rebellion leader.

Jan

 

[Republibot 3.0]

Just touching on one aspect of a really long post...

Are you under the impression that we saw the Telepath War? Because we didn't, not by a long shot. What we saw was a flashpoint and the process by which Lyta was brought from being a doormat to a rebellion leader.

Jan

I'm not at all under the impression we sat the war, excepting the brief flash of it in "Crusade."

I'm saying that Lyta's transformation from doormat to rebel leader would have been better if she'd done it herself, without having a big strong man around to show the little girl how to handle such a big burden. Because everyone knows girls can't change their personalities, or be assertive unless a guy tells them to, right? See what I'm getting at here?

JMS said many a time early on that he'd tie up every thread but one, which he'd leave open for a spinoff if everyone was interested in it. I don't hold him to that, as the show we ended up with was not at all the show he set out to make (As per my "Hidden Evolution of Babylon 5" synopses over on the Republibot site), but after all the buildup, leaving the Telepath War unresolved is annoying. The Drakh thing is annoying, too, but the Telepath war just pisses me off as there was PLENTY of dead air in season 5 to resolve the whole thing, if he wanted to.

I know he had other plans, I'm just saying, y'know, in retrospect.

 

[Jan]

I'm saying that Lyta's transformation from doormat to rebel leader would have been better if she'd done it herself, without having a big strong man around to show the little girl how to handle such a big burden. Because everyone knows girls can't change their personalities, or be assertive unless a guy tells them to, right? See what I'm getting at here?

Who would that have been, though? Certainly not pacifist Byron. He didn't show her anything except how to be completely politically naïve. She wasn't shown how to do anything. As Franklin said,

Well, let's see: she's been adjusted
by the Vorlons, dumped by the
Vorlons, used as a weapon, quit the
Corps, lost the only man she loved
and dedicated herself to finishing
off his work...pick any or all of
them. Face it, she's pissed.

By "Darkness Ascending" she was exploring the range of her powers on her own and shortly thereafter she's able to go head-to-head against Garibaldi. Nobody showed her how.

Jan

 

[A_M_Swallow]

{snip}
I've thought about it a lot, and I think there's several problems with Byron:
1) His episodes all come in a block, it's like a kidney stone you can't pass, and the rest of the season can't get flowing until he's out of the way. And he won't get out of the way.
2) Byron is inherenetly a superfluous character.

Think about it: We don't NEED Byron at all. We've got Lyta. What, Lyta has to be TOLD to lead the Telepaths? We've seen her grow more and more unhappy with the situation over the years, and get stronger both as a person and a teep. The idea that some man needs to come to the station and hold her by the hand and teach her how to be a leader is both ludicrous and condescending. I mean, does someone need to teach Sheridan how to be President? Or Garibaldi how to run Edgars? Did someone need to hold G'kar's hand and teach him how to be a poet/prophet guy? No. So why does Lyta need it?

I think the story would have played much, much, much better if Lyta just went to Sheridan and said "I want a homeland for my people. You owe me this." Sheridan could say something like, "Ok. We'll need time to negotiate this with the other races, and see if anyone is willing to donate a world. In the meantime, you can set up a colony on the station here." It could have been the exact same sub-par story otherwise, and it would have played much, much, much better.

Ideally, it should have been about Lyta, but really it was a story in which Lyta was second bananna.

Byron is Jesus where as Lyta is Saint Peter. Byron's job is to die a martyr. Lyta then goes on to lead the Telepath War.

Lyta did not need Byron to become a leader but the other telepaths need a martyr to revolt.

 

[Republibot 3.0]

Who would that have been, though? Certainly not pacifist Byron. He didn't show her anything except how to be completely politically naïve. She wasn't shown how to do anything. As Franklin said,

Well, I don't think either of us disagree that the Season 5 Telepath arc was poorly written and executed, so it's entirely possible that the message put forward on screen isn't the one JMS had in his head when writing. Case in point: I'm *PRETTY* sure that JMS's thoughts on social justice do not involve letting victims beat the living shit out of their abusers. I'm sure he was trying to make a point about the futility of vengence or honor over cowardice, or whatever, but it's just a crappy episode and it comes across as a HARD RIGHT kinda' statement. Trust me: I'd know about those.

So I totally cop that everything you say is true, and probably what JMS intended, but it comes across as (A) a complete waste of screen time and (B) Lyta still being mollycoddled, unlike any other character on the show by that point. .

 

[Republibot 3.0]

Byron is Jesus where as Lyta is Saint Peter. Byron's job is to die a martyr. Lyta then goes on to lead the Telepath War. Lyta did not need Byron to become a leader but the other telepaths need a martyr to revolt.

So you're saying the storyline is derivative, then?