Aborted Reboot

[Jan]

Well, I don't think either of us disagree that the Season 5 Telepath arc was poorly written and executed,

Uneven perhaps but no, I don't think it was nearly as bad as people like to claim.

... so it's entirely possible that the message put forward on screen isn't the one JMS had in his head when writing. Case in point: I'm *PRETTY* sure that JMS's thoughts on social justice do not involve letting victims beat the living shit out of their abusers.

I'm not 100% sure of that. Ever see his Twilight Zone episode "Acts of Terror"?

jan

 

[Psi Cop]

I liked the Byron storyline except, as mentioned, the quality of acting by some of the telepath extras. The tension was there between those who wanted a violent revolution and those that wanted a peaceful one, a very common scenario thru history. The only thing I didn't get was Sheridan's insistence that the telepaths shouldn't have a homeworld. After all that he went thru with them to win the Shadow War. Lyta was conflicted throughout the series about remaining in the Corps or leaving so it is totally reasonable that a catalyst (Byron) was needed to push her towards leading a revolution against the Corps. I think a sixth series could have worked with the dual storylines of the Telepath War and the Drakh's takeover of Centauri Prime.

 

[Republibot 3.0]

Uneven perhaps but no, I don't think it was nearly as bad as people like to claim.

Well, we're talking specifically about the Telepath arc in season 5, not the season as a whole. How do you feel that was executed? Personally, I found it less than compelling, and putting like 7 episodes back to back that put a principle cast member as subordinate to a recurring character no one had any attachment to was a serious mistake.

I'm not 100% sure of that. Ever see his Twilight Zone episode "Acts of Terror"?

jan

I have not. Do tell.

 

[Republibot 3.0]

I liked the Byron storyline except, as mentioned, the quality of acting by some of the telepath extras. The tension was there between those who wanted a violent revolution and those that wanted a peaceful one, a very common scenario thru history. The only thing I didn't get was Sheridan's insistence that the telepaths shouldn't have a homeworld. After all that he went thru with them to win the Shadow War. Lyta was conflicted throughout the series about remaining in the Corps or leaving so it is totally reasonable that a catalyst (Byron) was needed to push her towards leading a revolution against the Corps. I think a sixth series could have worked with the dual storylines of the Telepath War and the Drakh's takeover of Centauri Prime.

Well, you've got most of the episodes airing together in a bloc, or very close to one, and on top of that, not much substantial is going on on the station. So there's a lot of setup, and not a lot of payoff. Ok, Byron dies and Lyta loves him. That was evident from like the first time we met him/then. But there's no resolution to the telepath storyline.

My objection to it is this, I guess: spending so much time on the teeps feels like we're gearing up for something that never happens, which irritates me because, honestly, we get it by this point: it sucks to be a telepath. Don't need it driven home again. Certainly don't need it driven home in one out of every three episodes this season. So it feels like a waste. I recognize that JMS wanted to make a movie series, but that just ain't a-gonna' happen, so I can't really judge it on what he hoped would happen, but rather what he showed us.

Figure a movie is 2 hours, a trilogy is 6 hours, we got 7 or so hours of telepaths that season. I can't help but think he COULD have resolved the whole thing, rather than endless setup for stuff we already knew. I see Byron, and I think "Lost Opportunities."

 

[JonFrain]

Ok, I'm going to say the most arogant thing I've ever said, and I don't mean it with any disrespect, but here it is: JMS should not be in charge of the B5 universe anymore.

There comes a time in the career of every series creator/showrunner/executive producer/head writer in which they've taken something about as far as they can, and while there may still be other places to go, they'll never get there on their own. Maybe it's the stress, time involved, maybe it's the age, maybe it's an inability to keep up with changes in the medium, or maybe it's just what Peter Packer said regarding Lost in Space: "I just didn't have another goddamned idea in my head." It's not their fault. They did great work in creating the franchise, and running it, but entertainment is a team sport, and eventually even the best QB and/or coach just gets worn down and has to quit.

When they took Trek away from Roddenberry, it got better. Then the new guys stayed too long. It's been taken away from them, and it's doing better.

Star Wars has been taken away from Lucas, and everyone pretty much knows it'll get better.

Stargate SHOULD have been taken away from the powers that be over there prior to Universe, a show that indicated both boredom with the franchise and a disrespect for the fans, clear indicators that they shoulld no longer be driving that particular car.

Likewise, I don't think JMS should be driving the B5-wagon anymore. He can program the mapquest if he likes, he can cheerlead. I'd definitely want to read all his notes before proceeding, but the fact is that the guy has had 15 years to continue the story, and he hasn't, can't, or simply won't.

I don't claim to know who CAN, but clearly he's not going to get anywhere by himself.

All that said, I have great respect for JMS personally and creatively, just, y'know, it's time.

Well I stated that in the moderated newsgroup after reading an early review of LOTR. I stated if it was as bad as the review indicated, that I wouldn't be against someone else taking over. He responded in a pissy way but it turned out the review was 100% fair and I still believe he isn't the best thing for the property. Well unless he wants to provide the canon material for novels and such.

 

[Republibot 3.0]

Well I stated that in the moderated newsgroup after reading an early review of LOTR. I stated if it was as bad as the review indicated, that I wouldn't be against someone else taking over. He responded in a pissy way but it turned out the review was 100% fair and I still believe he isn't the best thing for the property. Well unless he wants to provide the canon material for novels and such.

I can totally see why he'd be upset by that. I mean, Roddenberry never accepted (Nor even really admit) that they took Trek away from him, and occasionally tried to torpedo it rather than let it continue without him. Lucas did not respond well to the idea that he shouldn't be helming 'Wars anymore, though eventually he gave in for the kids. I mean the money.

B5 was 5 years of blood, sweat, and tears for JMS. It's unquestionably his, but if we want more, I don't think he's the one to give it to us.

 

[Jan]

Well I stated that in the moderated newsgroup after reading an early review of LOTR. I stated if it was as bad as the review indicated, that I wouldn't be against someone else taking over. He responded in a pissy way but it turned out the review was 100% fair and I still believe he isn't the best thing for the property.

Yeah...nobody'd ever take offense at this...

>A not so ringing review has been posted for the upcoming movie. I'm hoping
>the reviewer has a strong bias against B5. I unfortunately have a very
>strong bias against Crusade.

They did.

>If this telefilm tanks, I'd honestly be open to the idea of someone else
>taking over the universe from Joe.

...especially when you hadn't even seen the film yet and admitted going into it with a negative bias. </sarcasm>

As for Republibot's question, my only real issue with the execution of the telepath arc was that so few of Byron's group had speaking roles in order to become more sympathetic to the audience who'd obviously forgotten the stories told to Talia by the teeps in the Underground Railroad. The fact that the production simply couldn't afford more speaking roles is pretty immaterial. This is one of the areas where a 'previously on Babylon 5' segment would have worked well to remind viewers of things that had gone on before, particularly that long ago.

Jan

 

[KoshN]

I wonder how much of that was true. Trouble is, he was VERY GOOD on the show. Re. killing him off in End of the Line, how many times does it look like a key actor is killed off in a season finale cliffhanger and he doesn't die and is back in Season 2? VERY often.

The Crusade-behind-the-scenes book I read made it pretty clear he wanted out, and they wanted him out. There's also a mention in there that he wouldn't have been back for a 2nd season, had there been one.

One of these days, I'll have to read that. It's on the shelf. There just isn't enough time!

Lacking the above, I'd rather have Crusade continued and wrapped up in non-graphic novels, but JMS would only do it as a TV series, TV miniseries or as theatrical movies. So, given Warner Brothers interest and backing of B5 universe projects since Crusade, Crusade is never going to be continued in ANY form.

Well, JMS could have done a graphic novel or a novel novel by now if he wanted to. He's been asked if he'll ever resolve Crusade, and he generally says 'no.' He wants to do more in the B5 universe, but he doesn't seem to want to do Crusade again.

He wanted to do it in 2001, when Sci-Fi Channel threw a monkeywrench in the plans by wanting their own new show in the B5 universe. Yeah, the Hell with dangling threads; those don't bother anybody! {DRIPPING WITH SARCASM} Damned idiots! Then Warners wanted to retain ownership of everything in the TV B5 universe and Universal wanted to OWN their B5 show. THEY SHOULD JUST HAVE CONTINUED CRUSADE, you know, back BEFORE most of the B5 resources were lost, sold or destroyed. But Nooooooooo! as HELL!

[Honestly, I don't think he thought it was his best work, and I think he found it a rather unpleasant experience. I base that on very little.

BECAUSE of all of TNT's MEDDLING, that we later found out was done so that JMS would quit and TNT could use that as grounds for canceling the show, when they REALLY wanted to cancel it because their core (wrestling/sports/mainstream drama audience) didn't like science-fiction (e.g. Babylon 5). This was discovered when survey results came in after B5 Season 5 was done and Crusade had filmed 5 episodes. TNT wanted to cancel Crusade, get out of paying for it, and use the money for Law & Order reruns.

[He does seem to have made a half-hearting pitch to Warners for a Trek TV Series rebook that COULD be taken as an attempt to re-purpose the Crusade storyline, but it's JMS, so we'll never know.

I don't think it could be taken as that.

 

[Republibot 3.0]

One of these days, I'll have to read that. It's on the shelf. There just isn't enough time!

Not worth your time. I felt ripped off after reading it.

He wanted to do it in 2001, when Sci-Fi Channel threw a monkeywrench in the plans by wanting their own new show in the B5 universe. Yeah, the Hell with dangling threads; those don't bother anybody! {DRIPPING WITH SARCASM} Damned idiots! Then Warners wanted to retain ownership of everything in the TV B5 universe and Universal wanted to OWN their B5 show. THEY SHOULD JUST HAVE CONTINUED CRUSADE, you know, back BEFORE most of the B5 resources were lost, sold or destroyed. But Nooooooooo! as HELL!

Well, I'm never gonna' defend Skiffy, as they're all a bunch of idiots who seemed to hate their own target demographic much of the time. However Skiffy was making a hard push at generating a lot of original programming at the time. Basically, if Skiffy had picked up Crusade, they claim it would have cost them as much money as producing 2 or 3 original shows. Given their MO at the time was "Get as much on the air as we can, and screw quality," this seems reasonable.

Also, look at it from a suit POV: You're asking them to invest 3 shows worth of money to buy a show that just FAILED on another network. This show was a spinoff to a show that generated very soft ratings, and was, itself, CANCELLED in first-run syndication. All things being equal (And all things are always equal to a suit), that's a no-brainer. Throwing good money after bad.

BECAUSE of all of TNT's MEDDLING, that we later found out was done so that JMS would quit and TNT could use that as grounds for canceling the show, when they REALLY wanted to cancel it because their core (wrestling/sports/mainstream drama audience) didn't like science-fiction (e.g. Babylon 5). This was discovered when survey results came in after B5 Season 5 was done and Crusade had filmed 5 episodes. TNT wanted to cancel Crusade, get out of paying for it, and use the money for Law & Order reruns.

Well, the "Meddling" bit is new to me, but, yeah, they had buyer's remorse. It's understandable. They plunked 20 million bucks into a cult-fave that didn't draw ratings, and seemed to actually alienate some of its fans. Who'd want to plunk 100 million into five more years of that?

[He does seem to have made a half-hearting pitch to Warners for a Trek TV Series rebook that COULD be taken as an attempt to re-purpose the Crusade storyline, but it's JMS, so we'll never know.

I don't think it could be taken as that.[/QUOTE]

Why not? I mean, I'm willing to say I misinterpreted it, but have you got anything that would support the idea that it wasn't?

 

[KoshN]

Interesting. I hadn't heard that. So why is Bester on the run in Crusade? Why isn't he with the Corps forces?

I hope this quote thing works, grumble grumble...

I have no idea who you're quoting but the reason Bester is on the run in Crusade "Value Judgemenrts" is because the TELEPATH WAR happened BEFORE Crusade started. Bester's side LOST. Bester, if found, would be tried for war crimes. He IS captured in the third book of The Psi Corps trilogy, in 2281. Re. Crusade, Shot: January 2267 - Fall 2267. Planned: January 2267 - December 2271.

TNT is often cited as the main villain behind the decline of Babylon 5. I can't agree.

TNT IS the main villain behind the decline of Babylon 5. Their machinations that led to Crusade going down, started the awful ball rolling. Crusade going down led to the actors being released, the B5 and Crusade resources reverting to Warner Brothers who LOST all of the CGI files, and sold off or destroyed most of the costumes and props and destroyed the sets. How do you come back after that on a $3 million TV movie budget, when you're told to start anew? You can't. The result was the AWFUL B5:LotR movie for The Sci-Fi Channel. THEN, five years after that, you have even less to work with and we get something even less substantial,

Soul Hunter: That is where it began to go wrong. First, there was the Claudia "I'll be there for Season 5, oh no, oops, I won't." and then TNT screwing over Crusade because their core viewers didn't like science-fiction, didn't like Babylon 5. That was the one-two punch that killed the B5 universe.

 

[KoshN]

I think the biggest thing that hurt season 5 was the ending of the Earth civil war having been squeezed into the end of season 4, what with jms thinking they wouldn't even get a season 5 and all. If season 4 had ended with Sheridan's capture as the original plan was to be, then there would've been a ton of drama that we all know and love happening there in the beginning of season 5.

That happened because PTEN went down and another home for B5 Season 5 wasn't found until the last minute, long after JMS had been told to wrap things up in Season 4. If B5 would have just gone to The WB/The CW (a much better home for sci-fi/fantasy), but The/WB/The CW was spiteful re. PTEN. Warner Brothers, PTEN and The WB/The CW are like the most dysfunctional, cut-throat family you could ever imagine.

 

[KoshN]

if battlestar galactica can get a remake, then i'm sure Babylon 5 more than deserves a reboot.

Nah, they'd just f*ck it up worse the second time around.

 

[KoshN]

* The Legend of the Rangers awfulness was caused by The Sci-Fi Channel wanting a different story, not a tying up of the Crusade dangling threads, was severely hobbled by the loss of 1993-1998 Babylon 5 and Crusade resources due to Warner Brothers near total lack of vision and faith, and a $3 million budget made infinitely worse by the lack of resources previously mentioned.

I'm sorry but you can't blame Sci-Fi for LOTR.

I MOST CERTAINLY CAN. They are the ones who FORCED things in that direction, away from Crusade's storyline continuing. JMS should have said "Fine, you don't want to continue Crusade's story and wrap things up? The library of resources we built up over all those years is gone? I'm supposed to create a miracle for $3 million? I'm outta here. Find somebody else to make your Sci-Fi Original movie in every bad sense of that designation."

Pebble #1: TNT screws over JMS and Crusade in the hope of getting out of paying for Crusade, so they can buy Law & Order reruns.

Pebble #2: Upon Crusade going down, Warner Brothers wants to pull all Babylon 5 universe resources back to themselves, and then they lose, destroy or sell 99% of it.

Pebble #3: Sci-Fi wants to OWN their own B5 universe TV show.

Pebble #4: Warner Brothers won't let Sci-Fi (part of Universal) own a B5 TV show.

Pebble#5: We get a half-assed TV movie (B5: LotR) which is hamstrung by Pebble #2.

Pebble #6: Five years go by and we get an even less substantial, Babylon 5 - The Lost Tales - Voices in the Dark, consisting of two 36 minute mini-episodes, on the same budget as Pebble #5.

Since Crusade, everything has been a feeble shadow of what has gone before. The avalanche has buried all hope of anything new and good in the B5/Crusade universe, UNLESS somebody gets some FAITH and ponies up the cash to do it, not some half-hearted, cheapass attempt, but a REAL, GOOD FAITH ATTEMPT.

Continue and finish the Crusade storyline. Reboot it if you must, BUT DO IT and DO IT RIGHT.

They didn't write the script, cast the actors or come up with that laughable combat system the woman was using.

Sci-Fi forced things in that direction when they refused to continue the Crusade storyline, wanting something new and different.

There was a hint of something great, and a series with recasting could have fixed a lot of it.

What hint?!? All but about five minutes of the thing was embarrassing. The best thing about the whole thing was when Martel hit his head and Dulann came back with his best line. I feel bad that Andreas was last seen in the B5 universe in that crappy thing.

But the night it aired I switched between it and the Patriots game. I had to rewatch it to see everything. I think the leads were pretty bad and G'Kar was misused.

IF I would've coaxed B5 newbies to watch it with me, I'd have been embarrassed. I'm glad that I watched it alone.

It's too bad that there's no real venue for classic Science Fiction on cable TV.

There is, on ME-TV, but that's an NBC subchannel, connected with Universal, NOT Warner Brothers. The CW would be a natural fit IF Warner Brothers wasn't do damned intent on it being a teeny-bopper channel. Supernatural (WB) does well there and is on Season 8. The Dresden Files could do well there IF they were faithful to the books. Babylon 5 and Crusade could do well there, IF Warner Brothers would use the jaws of life to pry oven their wallet and bring the effects (especially early B5 effects) up to today's standards.

It's also too bad that WB will never pay the costs of updating the effects in B5, especially for the scenes where it's mixed with live action.

AGREED for all scenes containing special effects.

 

[KoshN]

A continuation of Babylon 5 is of no interest to me. The series finale was a fine end to that universe as far as I'm concerned. JMS lost something after Season 4 of B5.

Well, yeah, he lost a ton of money, two of his cast, and one shooting day per episode, which adds up to 3 lost weeks of production time over the course of the year. He also lost his outlines for the first batch of the season, *AND* he was doing those useles movies, *AND* he was getting Crusade going.

So basically what he lost was focus. He had too many irons in an unfriendly fire, and I think it drove the quality of the last season down.

As to Crusade, after it ended, there's the story that JMS was having dinner with Harlan Ellison, and the Harlan said "I'm glad that show's done. It wasn't your best work." So i wasn't just us fans who thought that.

It's hard to do your best work when you're kicked in the balls and sabotaged at every turn by TNT. JMS didn't have that with B5. TNT tried to make life Hell making Crusade. They didn't want to improve it; they wanted JMS to quit so they could get out of paying for it and instead use the money for Law & Order reruns. That's what I call a hostile work environment, and it probably bled over into the cast and caused problems there (e.g with Gary Cole).

 

[KoshN]

TNT is often cited as the main villain behind the decline of Babylon 5. I can't agree. The budget was lower on season 5, yes. Without TNT, there would have been no season 5 at all. As much as people hate the Byron storyline (not me, though),

TNT isn't a hero, but they're certainly not the villain.

YES, THEY ARE THE VILLAIN!!! They are the reason for the lower budget, the reduced shooting schedule (1 day less per episode). They forced that.

Claudia is also a villain. She caused the big problems at the start of Season 5. She was the reason we are now stuck with Lochley (Scoggins). See, it's a lasting poison.

They did what they could with the resources available, it didn't pay off for them, so they cut their losses. No harm, no foul, though I think Crusade should have gotten a full season before they killed it, I can see their reason for not doing so.

Back when Babylon 5 and Crusade could have gone to The Sci-Fi Channel, TNT held onto them and reran B5 to death. What they asked Sci-Fi for the B5 and Crusade reruns was called a ransom note.
http://jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-17752&query=scifi continue Crusade



http://jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-17625&query=Sci-Fi Crusade Rangers
Q: You trust them? After Crusade, after Rangers, you believe them?

JMS: Warner’s has never actually lied. What happened with TNT and Crusade was a different situation where they said, after we started making the show, they [TNT] said they weren’t getting a new audience with science fiction and they wanted to get out of the deal at TNT. Which is a different division over here and they set about to sabotage the show. And then Rangers was a good show and Sci-Fi would’ve picked it up except that it wasn’t owned by Universal, it was owned by Warner Bros. and the deal was not something they wanted to get into. But Warner’s themselves have always been very stand-up. With B5 itself, starting with episode 2 of year 2, they never gave us any notes. They just brought in the guy who’d been our liaison on B5 the series, a guy named Greg Maday, to be our liaison on this as well. Greg’s a great guy; he’s a former Jesuit student, a scholar. Seriously, he’s a really smart guy and understands story and he’s coming back to be our liaison. Very smart guy. So Warner’s, yeah, I do trust them. They actually have kept their promises to me. The contract negotiation was a different scenario but that’s just business. Creatively they’ve been great.


Q: I’m curious about how much of the Babylon 5 tool kit you still have available to use for your project. For example, the old CG tools, or props, sets, costumes, that kind of thing. In other words, go you have to start from the ground up?

JMS: We have some stuff but not a lot. Over the years Warner’s has used it for other stuff, other shows, sold it off, lost it. The costume inventory…when we closed Babylon 5 we had racks that went from there to there [indicates the width of the room which sat about 40 people across], like four of them. We asked them what they had and it was from there to there [indicates about one third of the room across]. I said “What’d you *do*? So to some extent we have to start over with that. But that’s fine; due to wear and tear over time, it happens. They’re a great studio but every studio has its problems. We were constrained when we re-edited the pilot movie, some things we couldn’t do, there was stuff we couldn’t incorporate in the re-edit because Warner’s had stored the film, the originals and the negatives and the prints in this one vault which was cracked. Rats got in and ate the negatives. Somewhere there’s a Narn rat running around right now. Or a Centauri rat. Their storage facilities aren’t the best although their intentions are. So to a large extent we’re starting over on stuff.
****************************************************

That's all well and good UNTIL you have to re-create the stuff and you don't have the budget to do so. Then, you're screwed,

I've thought about it a lot, and I think there's several problems with Byron:
1) His episodes all come in a block, it's like a kidney stone you can't pass, and the rest of the season can't get flowing until he's out of the way. And he won't get out of the way.
2) Byron is inherenetly a superfluous character.

Byron is the single worst character in Season 5.. Lochley is a close second.

 

[KoshN]

TNT is often cited as the main villain behind the decline of Babylon 5. I can't agree. The budget was lower on season 5, yes. Without TNT, there would have been no season 5 at all. As much as people hate the Byron storyline (not me, though),

TNT isn't a hero, but they're certainly not the villain. They did what they could with the resources available, it didn't pay off for them, so they cut their losses. No harm, no foul, though I think Crusade should have gotten a full season before they killed it, I can see their reason for not doing so.

I've thought about it a lot, and I think there's several problems with Byron:
1) His episodes all come in a block, it's like a kidney stone you can't pass, and the rest of the season can't get flowing until he's out of the way. And he won't get out of the way.
2) Byron is inherenetly a superfluous character.

Think about it: We don't NEED Byron at all. We've got Lyta. What, Lyta has to be TOLD to lead the Telepaths? We've seen her grow more and more unhappy with the situation over the years, and get stronger both as a person and a teep. The idea that some man needs to come to the station and hold her by the hand and teach her how to be a leader is both ludicrous and condescending. I mean, does someone need to teach Sheridan how to be President? Or Garibaldi how to run Edgars? Did someone need to hold G'kar's hand and teach him how to be a poet/prophet guy? No. So why does Lyta need it?

I think the story would have played much, much, much better if Lyta just went to Sheridan and said "I want a homeland for my people. You owe me this." Sheridan could say something like, "Ok. We'll need time to negotiate this with the other races, and see if anyone is willing to donate a world. In the meantime, you can set up a colony on the station here." It could have been the exact same sub-par story otherwise, and it would have played much, much, much better.

Ideally, it should have been about Lyta, but really it was a story in which Lyta was second bananna.

Apparently Byron was supposed to be matched with Ivanova. Something along the lines of making up for her mistakes with Marcus.

If we wouldn't have lost Ivanova, we wouldn't have lost Marcus.

I don't think the story would have been much better with that kind of twist. The telepaths around Byron played like True Blood vampires or something. It was just a mess.

Hard to tell given all of the variables involved. None of this would have happened if PTEN hadn't gone under, the various parts of Warner Brothers hadn't been spiteful (The WB/The CW re. PTEN, TNT re. B5 & Crusade, Warner Brothers re. ownership of B5), and Universal insisting on ownership of a piece of B5. If only they'd have worked together for the benefit of all. No, you're not going to get ALL of the profits, but you're going to get SOMETHING.

Having Ivanova would have removed Lochley though0. That would have been a major improvement.

YES!

You can tell from quotes that JMS treated the loss of Ivanova as being good for the story and adding tension. That may have worked with a better actress. But she got too much air time and even ruined Lost Tales.

If JMS said that, I think that was just him trying to put a good face on things.

JMS was also adamant that Evan Chen was a good composer. But the soundtrack totally distracted from the material most of the time.

I got used to Evan Chen's music in Crusade, EXCEPT where it was just too loud, and the "music" (noise: baby crying, dog barking, etc.) over the end titles of "Ruling from the Tomb." Then, it was distracting and ridiculously awful, in that order.

 

[KoshN]

Honestly, they probably could have crammed the whole Telepath war into 7 episodes if they'd tried. IT's not like there was anything of note going on in the station.

The Telepath War is set to happen between 2263 and 2266, not IN 2262. I can't remember if it was supposed to have ended before B5: LotR.

I should mention that I wouldn't mind the character (Lochley) *AT ALL* if she'd been brought in as, say, the new XO of the station. "Ivonova, you're in charge, but having a loyal Earthforce officer as XO would go a LONG way towards smoothing over difficulties, so here's Commander Lochley."

Not bad. That would've made for some tension. However, Claudia prevented that.

Ok, I'm going to say the most arogant thing I've ever said, and I don't mean it with any disrespect, but here it is: JMS should not be in charge of the B5 universe anymore.

What, like George Lucas and Star Wars? I disagree with respect to JMS and B5 universe. I think he should be in charge sans the meddling (e.g. like TNT's Crusade meddling), and with a proper budget, necessary to re-create all that Warner Brothers lost, sold or destroyed.

Likewise, I don't think JMS should be driving the B5-wagon anymore. He can program the mapquest if he likes, he can cheerlead. I'd definitely want to read all his notes before proceeding, but the fact is that the guy has had 15 years to continue the story, and he hasn't, can't, or simply won't.

Warner Brothers support keeps evaporating. Lucy and the football.

I don't claim to know who CAN, but clearly he's not going to get anywhere by himself.

Not without the funding and a venue to air the show. Warner Brothers is lacking on both counts. It is Warner Brothers that B5 should be taken away from, but THEY won't let it go anywhere else. They'd rather it DIE that go to another studio and be revived. They want it all for themselves, and if they can't make a go of it, they'll make sure nobody can. They're like TNT (a part of Warner Brothers) in that respect. It is Warner Brothers that is the problem, not JMS.

 

[KoshN]

Just touching on one aspect of a really long post...

Are you under the impression that we saw the Telepath War? Because we didn't, not by a long shot. What we saw was a flashpoint and the process by which Lyta was brought from being a doormat to a rebellion leader.

Jan

Getting caught up. Boy is this a BEAR!

 

[KoshN]

He wanted to do it in 2001, when Sci-Fi Channel threw a monkeywrench in the plans by wanting their own new show in the B5 universe. Yeah, the Hell with dangling threads; those don't bother anybody! {DRIPPING WITH SARCASM} Damned idiots! Then Warners wanted to retain ownership of everything in the TV B5 universe and Universal wanted to OWN their B5 show. THEY SHOULD JUST HAVE CONTINUED CRUSADE, you know, back BEFORE most of the B5 resources were lost, sold or destroyed. But Nooooooooo! as HELL!

Well, I'm never gonna' defend Skiffy, as they're all a bunch of idiots who seemed to hate their own target demographic much of the time. However Skiffy was making a hard push at generating a lot of original programming at the time. Basically, if Skiffy had picked up Crusade, they claim it would have cost them as much money as producing 2 or 3 original shows. Given their MO at the time was "Get as much on the air as we can, and screw quality," this seems reasonable.

Quantity over quality, yeah I want to watch a channel like that. NOT!!!!!!

Also, look at it from a suit POV:

No, I'd need a lobotomy first. No thanks.

You're asking them to invest 3 shows worth of money to buy a show that just FAILED on another network.

You have to look at WHY it failed. You can't just think that it failed there, so it will fail here, too. The audiences are different.

This show was a spinoff to a show that generated very soft ratings, and was, itself, CANCELLED in first-run syndication.

This wouldn't have happened on a sci-fi friendly channel that has an audience that wants to see sci-fi. If only Warners had such a channel, oh yeah, THE CW. Oops, no, wait, they hate B5 because they hated PTEN, so nobody wins. Ain't life grand for Warner Brothers sci-fi properties that can't get on The CW?

BECAUSE of all of TNT's MEDDLING, that we later found out was done so that JMS would quit and TNT could use that as grounds for canceling the show, when they REALLY wanted to cancel it because their core (wrestling/sports/mainstream drama audience) didn't like science-fiction (e.g. Babylon 5). This was discovered when survey results came in after B5 Season 5 was done and Crusade had filmed 5 episodes. TNT wanted to cancel Crusade, get out of paying for it, and use the money for Law & Order reruns.

Well, the "Meddling" bit is new to me,

WHAT?!?!?!?!? Where were you in the summer of 1999? It was all over the net. Go to jmsnews.com and search on Crusade.

but, yeah, they had buyer's remorse. It's understandable. They plunked 20 million bucks into a cult-fave that didn't draw ratings, and seemed to actually alienate some of its fans. Who'd want to plunk 100 million into five more years of that?

They screwed it up in damn near every possible. I think they INVENTED new ways to screw it up. "A Call to Arms" was supposed to air before the first Crusade episode, Racing the Night. However, TNT aired "A Call to Arms" in January, and then didn't air Crusade until JUNE. Then, they wanted a traditional pilot episode, instead of airing "A Call to Arms" as the intro. to Crusade. So, JMS had to write a pliot ep., War Zone." Then what does TNT do, they air War Zone, and then air A Call to Arms right after it, and then air the episodes that were meant to be aired FIRST, LAST. Then, on the first airing, Crusade was pushed around by the NBA draft (The Path of Sorrows aired at midnight, AFTER the f-ing NBA draft.), by JFK Jr.'s plain crash coverage, etc.

The creation of War Zone meant that we never got Value Judgements (the Bester episode). So, we got a superfluous episode and lost an episode which would have been a magnet for B5 fans.

We also never got To the Ends of the Earth and End of the Line, two episodes that would have been blockbusters.

He does seem to have made a half-hearting pitch to Warners for a Trek TV Series rebook that COULD be taken as an attempt to re-purpose the Crusade storyline, but it's JMS, so we'll never know.

I don't think it could be taken as that.

Why not? I mean, I'm willing to say I misinterpreted it, but have you got anything that would support the idea that it wasn't?

Do you honestly think that JMS would stoop to pitching a reboot of TOS to somehow wheedle the Crusade storyline into it? I don't. The stories are too different.

 

[Republibot 3.0]

Warner Brothers who LOST all of the CGI files

I heard tell it wasn't that they lost them, it was that they deliberately demanded their return, then wiped 'em. I heard this was an intellectual property move, I've also heard it was ostensibly to prevent piracy. I've also heard that they didn't figure they'd be of any future worth. I've also heard that they just didn't trust Netter Digital.

In any event, most of the rumors I hear are that it was deliberate. But it may not be.

Any way you slice it, it comes up stupid. Honestly, Warners doesn't make much sense to me most of the time.