About this review..

**DONOTDELETE** · Oct 30, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by drakh:

Originally posted by Chris Springob:
As I recall, the review didn't say that the visuals looked bad, just that what was seen in the show looked different from what had previously been established in Babylon 5 (hyperspace FX and the like).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I'm more interested in things looking visually interesting than exactly like they were before. The shots we've already seen do not look horribly out of place. B5 constantly tinkered with things to make them look better (the Whitestar bridge is a good example), and in the end, the new effects team is just going to have to figure out their own way of doing things.

And I note he also complained that the jumpgates looked different from B5... apparently unaware that he was about three years too late...

Click to expand...

He did not complain that they looked different - he noted it.

And, IMO, the effects work was subpar, but not as embarrassing as the effects work on Crusade.

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drakh · Oct 30, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tobias Clutch:
as embarrassing as the effects work on Crusade.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>That's a statement I have problems interpreting, given that the quality of Crusade's CGI varied greatly.

With the first five (production order), I found the CGI equal or better than Netter Digital's work on B5. They were however pushing themselves more than on B5, so the limitations of the budget were more obvious while they tested just how far they could go.

With the remaining episodes (still production order), there was a noticeable drop in CGI quality. Even jms acknowledged that, saying they were trying a "new approach". Dunno what happened - some have said Netter changed their rendering platform, though I think budget problems is a more likely answer.

Special mention goes to War Zone was the absolutely worst, likely because it was a very ambitious episode (CGI wise) that was shoehorned into the production schedule, right after The Long Road (which also had a good amount of CGI).

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You are not entitled to your own opinion. You are only entitled to your own informed opinion.
-- Harlan Ellison quoting Gustave Flaubert

drakh@spamcop.net

KoshN · Oct 31, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by drakh:
"as embarrassing as the effects work on Crusade" That's a statement I have problems interpreting, given that the quality of Crusade's CGI varied greatly.

With the first five (production order), I found the CGI equal or better than Netter Digital's work on B5. They were however pushing themselves more than on B5, so the limitations of the budget were more obvious while they tested just how far they could go.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Got any specific examples?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
With the remaining episodes (still production order), there was a noticeable drop in CGI quality. Even jms acknowledged that, saying they were trying a "new approach". Dunno what happened - some have said Netter changed their rendering platform, though I think budget problems is a more likely answer.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Again, got any specific examples?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
Special mention goes to War Zone was the absolutely worst, likely because it was a very ambitious episode (CGI wise) that was shoehorned into the production schedule, right after The Long Road (which also had a good amount of CGI).

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Which spots are most objectionable, to you, and why?

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KoshN
-------------
Vorlon Empire

"To Live and Die in Starlight"
pilot movie for "Babylon 5 - The Legend of the Rangers"
January 2002 on The Sci-Fi Channel. http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/

[This message has been edited by KoshN (edited October 31, 2001).]

drakh · Nov 3, 2001

I'm in the process of reveiwing my tapes now, to get spesifics.

Of the first five, one solid example of a effects shot that doesn't work is Dureena blocking Galen's path to the big machine. No matter how many times I watch that one, it still fails to convey what is happening, and Dureena seems to jump a lot longer than one would expect given her speed. Given that they pull off a similar scene (Dureena and the "energy" bridge) a lot better in the same episode, I'd expect this was a result of budget/time rather than incompetence.

Else, there are plenty of shots that I find "fake" looking... The skimmer chase (Gideon sticks out like a sore thumb), the Homuncoulus(sp?) (especially the face), the establishing shot of Galen walking around on the planet in The Memory of War. I do not however think the latter is any more fake looking than Londo walking to the Emperor's Palace in The Fall of Centauri Prime, it may however be more noticable to some, since Crusade relied a lot more on these types of shots than B5.

In the end, it's wether or not the effects manage to effectively convey the story. For example, I can't say I found the simpler PPG effects used in Severed Dreams to lessen the impact of the battle scenes.

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You are not entitled to your own opinion. You are only entitled to your own informed opinion.
-- Harlan Ellison quoting Gustave Flaubert

drakh@spamcop.net

drakh · Nov 4, 2001

Another thing - Crusade had, as I understand it, a pretty realistic repesentation of space thanks to JPL. This did however mean they had to seriously cut down on the usage of colored nebulae(?), which made the space shots a lot less visually striking.

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You are not entitled to your own opinion. You are only entitled to your own informed opinion.
-- Harlan Ellison quoting Gustave Flaubert

drakh@spamcop.net

KoshN · Nov 5, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by drakh:
I'm in the process of reveiwing my tapes now, to get spesifics.

Of the first five, one solid example of a effects shot that doesn't work is Dureena blocking Galen's path to the big machine. No matter how many times I watch that one, it still fails to convey what is happening, and Dureena seems to jump a lot longer than one would expect given her speed.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It didn't stick out as bad to me. What I didn't understand was why Galen didn't use his

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black>Spoiler:</td></tr><tr><td>Spell of Destruction</td></tr></table>

on the machine, and instead threw his staff.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
Else, there are plenty of shots that I find "fake" looking... The skimmer chase (Gideon sticks out like a sore thumb),
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What do you think caused it to look fake? The lighting on the ships vs. the lighting on Gideon's face? The level of detail in the ships and background CGI in the scene vs. the detail in the live action part of the shot? I think the speed and amount of detail required in the shot just made it an extraordinarily hard shot to do.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
...the Homuncoulus(sp?) (especially the face),
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What about it? Is your problem with the Homuncoulus(sp?) or the background CGI? The Homuncoulus wasn't supposed to look exactly like Galen, just enough to fool the robotic ships. If they'd wanted it to look exactly like Galen, they could have used Peter Woodward (or at least used his head superimposed on the CGI body, and then they'd just have had to detail the hands and entrails better).

I was happy with the shot, and thought it did everything they were trying to do with it. No big deal.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
...the establishing shot of Galen walking around on the planet in The Memory of War. I do not however think the latter is any more fake looking than Londo walking to the Emperor's Palace in The Fall of Centauri Prime, it may however be more noticable to some, since Crusade relied a lot more on these types of shots than B5.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you mean the 3.7 second high angle establishing shot of Galen first setting foot on the planet and walking from upper left of the frame to lower right, it was from relatively great distance, zoomed in a bit, and then cut to the closer shot of him walking towards camera. I thought it looked OK, and equally as good if not better than the similar, high angle shot that showed the first group from Excalibur walking on the planet. Galen's shadow was a nice touch. I just looked at my SVHS SP master and it looked fine to me.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
In the end, it's wether or not the effects manage to effectively convey the story. For example, I can't say I found the simpler PPG effects used in Severed Dreams to lessen the impact of the battle scenes.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, over time, effects evolve, and there will be differences. I can usually accept these differences.

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KoshN
-------------
Vorlon Empire

"To Live and Die in Starlight"
pilot movie for "Babylon 5 - The Legend of the Rangers"
January 2002 on The Sci-Fi Channel.
http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/

KoshN · Nov 5, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by drakh:
Another thing - Crusade had, as I understand it, a pretty realistic repesentation of space thanks to JPL. This did however mean they had to seriously cut down on the usage of colored nebulae(?), which made the space shots a lot less visually striking.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I remember at least one extraordinarily colored, rosy nebula background with the Excalibur crossing in front of it (left to right). Might make a nice avatar.

Can't remember the episode at the moment, but I'll find it.

------------------
KoshN
-------------
Vorlon Empire

"To Live and Die in Starlight"
pilot movie for "Babylon 5 - The Legend of the Rangers"
January 2002 on The Sci-Fi Channel.
http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/

drakh · Nov 8, 2001

Well, I've now finished rewatching all the episodes. And first a little correction. The CGI remained pretty good for the two first eps shot after the TNT break. The Well of Forever is generally pretty nice, and the Well itself comes out well, in spite of the ambitiousness of the thing.

The Long Road looks fantastic (with one exception). The space shots are crisp and clear, have a bit more imaginative angling and composition than usual. The exteriors blend well with the live action, and I thought this was the Crusade ep that was most successful in creating a real "outdoors" feel (that's Mike Vejar for you). The only let down are the shots of the mining complex, which are so-so, and specifically Alwyn casting his spell, which looks dreadful (the textures on the ground are very blocky and undetailed).

Then comes War Zone, which IMNSHO looks awful in most ways. The planet surface shots lack detail in the distance. The Omega chasing the Drakh ship has very blury and undetailed textures compared to the one in the previous episode, and the battle looks very silly (hits like that are usually a sign that the ship is about to go boom). The weapons fire inside the Drakh wreck looks very cheap (heck the whole scene is technically wretched, outclassing even Andromeda in bad FX, gratuitous use of slowmo and hideous directing in general. Poor Janet Greek. Whatever did TNT do to her...) Lastly, the end battle with the Drakh is not really much of a battle. It's more a bunch of quick cuts of ships flying in straight lines, with lots of explosions and weapons fire thrown in.

The Path of Sorrows - Gideon's flashback - the textures of the Omega sees to have the same problem as the previous episode. The shadow hybrid's attack seems over too quick... It's like they're trying to keep the costs down by speeding up the scene.

Patterns of the Soul - the attack on the slave transport - The Shadow ships' movement seems very unusual and simplified. There's no grace... It's more like they're being jerked into place by strings, and once again the firing/explosions seem to be over to quickly.

The rest seem ok (mainly because of relatively simple CGI), although I think I spotted the ultra-cheap PPGs again in Ruling From the Tomb.

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You are not entitled to your own opinion. You are only entitled to your own informed opinion.
-- Harlan Ellison quoting Gustave Flaubert

drakh@spamcop.net

drakh · Nov 8, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by KoshN:
I think the speed and amount of detail required in the shot just made it an extraordinarily hard shot to do.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Undobtedly. The whole scene is probaly the most ambitous FX sequence B5/Crusade ever did.

Anyone who calls that one embaresing has little credibility in my eyes. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The Homuncoulus wasn't supposed to look exactly like Galen, just enough to fool the robotic ships. If they'd wanted it to look exactly like Galen, they could have used Peter Woodward<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Would have increased the cost of the scene considerably. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>(or at least used his head superimposed on the CGI body, and then they'd just have had to detail the hands and entrails better).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Would have still looked fairly fake and very flat. For pretty decent faces look at the CGI Starship Troopers series. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I was happy with the shot, and thought it did everything they were trying to do with it. No big deal.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I didn't think it was a problem... I was just trying to be hyper-critical, as someone who disliked the series on a whole would likely be.

------------------
You are not entitled to your own opinion. You are only entitled to your own informed opinion.
-- Harlan Ellison quoting Gustave Flaubert

drakh@spamcop.net

KoshN · Nov 8, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by drakh:
The only let down are the shots of the mining complex, which are so-so,
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Man, I agree with you on that one! The overall shot of the mining complex, just before Excalibur hit it with the main gun,
were not convincing at all. I don't know it was not enough detail, the lighting, or both. It just looked like "a model" to me.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
and specifically Alwyn casting his spell, which looks dreadful (the textures on the ground are very blocky and undetailed).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I thought that was just the effect of Alwyn's spell, as we were seeing through it.

I'll have to re-check War Zone, with your comments in hand.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
The Path of Sorrows - Gideon's flashback - the textures of the Omega sees to have the same problem as the previous episode.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'll check this out.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
The shadow hybrid's attack seems over too quick... It's like they're trying to keep the costs down by speeding up the scene.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think it was more a matter of trying to keep the mystery up, like JMS does with the Vorlons (not revealing too much about them). We would have gotten more info. about the hybrid ship, possibly with longer flashbacks, a little at a time as the series progressed. Some of the scene might have been cut for time. That's a possibility. It's happened before. What to keep and what to cut, that is the question.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
Patterns of the Soul - the attack on the slave transport - The Shadow ships' movement seems very unusual and simplified. There's no grace... It's more like they're being jerked into place by strings, and once again the firing/explosions seem to be over to quickly.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What was more surprising to me was that the Shadows missed any of the escape pods, and didn't send fighters down to eradicate them.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
The rest seem ok (mainly because of relatively simple CGI), although I think I spotted the ultra-cheap PPGs again in Ruling From the Tomb.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you mean no distortion around the PPG shots, like in early episodes of B5?

------------------
KoshN
-------------
Vorlon Empire

"To Live and Die in Starlight"
pilot movie for "Babylon 5 - The Legend of the Rangers"
January 2002 on The Sci-Fi Channel.
http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/

bakana · Nov 9, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> What was more surprising to me was that the Shadows missed any of the escape pods, and didn't send fighters down to eradicate them.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not when you think about the Shadow's ultimate aims.
Breeding "better" younger races.
They stopped the ships from getting where they were going.
Then, some Shadow probably said:
"The planet is uninhabited, there are only a few hundred survivors. Let's come back in a few hundred years and see if there are any survivors worth bothering with."

For the Shadows, it would be a perfect way to "test" the race to see how well it is evolving.

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Hydrogen, Greed, Stupidity!

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