Allies of the Shadows

[bakana]

If I remember right, what Londo said about the Drakh was that they hadn't been heard from in centuries, and that if they were back, things were Very Bad Indeed.

Which implies that they had been serving the Shadows for a Long Time.
The Drakh practically worship the Shadows. That's a relationship that goes back more than just a few years.

Plus, the Shadows go into Hibernation between wars. They can't very well be going out recruiting new followers while they hibernate.


What Delenn said about the Streib was that, the last time they meddled in Minbari affairs, they were "taught the depth of their mistake." And the lesson would be taught again since the Streib seemed to have forgotten.
That implies that the Minbari are Stronger and more advanced than the Streib, in spite of any Shadow backing.
The Shadows don't go around handing out advanced Tech any more than the Vorlons do.
It's probably another of the "rules of engagement". The younger races have to develop or steal their own tech.

After all, the whole point is for the younger races to Evolve.
Handing fusion grenades to a bunch of "Neanderthals" isn't going to help them evolve.
It does tend to cut down on the number of survivors, though.
On both sides.
Plus, giving Tech away doesn't create any Understanding.
That's the flaw in the Technomages situation: They have the Use of very advanced technology and every mage spends most of his/her life just trying to figure out how it works.

That's the real reason they go for the analogy to "magic". They don't understand it Either.
But they can't very well admit that.

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The 3 most common elements in the Universe:
Hydrogen, Greed, Stupidity!

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

How much do we know about the Drahk aside from the basics? ive read the Centauri and Technomage trilogies and as much as they reveal its not much. Londo did say that if the Drahk were back it was bad. Something that has been assumed is that the Shadows leftover tech is the basis of the Drahk fleet. i believe this is wrong. Drahk vessals bear absolutely no resemblance whatsoever to those of the shadows in appearance or apparent ability. Drahk technology seems vastly different, which would imply any technology given to the Drahk or perhaps the Streib was quite limited. it also suggests that the Drahk had a pre-existing fleet and unique technology of their own, though nothing to match the Shadows. The Drahk militairy strategy seems to be to get in, deploy an overwelming force on an unsuspecting target, and get out before any real damage can be done to the Drahk themselves. their vessals seem to reflect this philosophy. the Shadows also knew the virtues of the element of suprise but didnt seem to rely so much on suprise as on overwelming firepower and stealth. this shows a difference between Drahk and Shadow tech that is more than skin deep.

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[Cern]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KoshN:
Ahhh! Spoiler Protection!!! Gees. Cern! My eyes!

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black>in Invoking Darkness, page 257, the Wurt are described as "scabrous skinned"</font></td></tr></table>

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

damn, dude. i didnt think two words from a book constituted a spoiler, considering its not even about the plot. my bad...

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Never start a fight, but ALWAYS finish it.

" The dogmas of the quiet past are inadequate for the stormy present. The occasion is piled high with difficulty, and we must rise to the occasion. We can not escape history. We will be remembered, in spite of ourselves. The fiery trial through which we pass will light us down in honor or dishonor, to the last generation. We shall nobly save, or meanly lose our last best hope."

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Which implies that they had been serving the Shadows for a Long Time.
The Drakh practically worship the Shadows. That's a relationship that goes back more than just a few years.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
True. BUT - the Shadows have been inactive for a Thousand years; "not heard of for centuries" falls right into that inactive period... and well after the last (Valen's) ShadowWar. So that would indicate the Minbari did not, could not recognize them.


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Plus, the Shadows go into Hibernation between wars. They can't very well be going out recruiting new followers while they hibernate.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Not personally... but they sure as hell have someone or something minding the store for them - certainly the Eye and diverse servants. Those would do the recruiting while their masters are asleep...


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>The Shadows don't go around handing out advanced Tech any more than the Vorlons do.
-snip-
After all, the whole point is for the younger races to Evolve.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Exactly!

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"ShadowScout"
Roman Alexander

"Go on, watch out for Shadows - we'll watch you right back!"

What do you want?
ShadowShips!

 

[bakana]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Plus, the Shadows go into Hibernation between wars. They can't very well be going out recruiting new followers while they hibernate.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>
Not personally... but they sure as hell have someone or something minding the store for them - certainly the Eye and diverse servants. Those would do the recruiting while their masters are asleep... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, the fact that the Drakh seem to have vanished at pretty much the same time as the Shadows would tend to argue that the Shadows DID NOT permit them to go around causing trouble in the intervening years.

The servant races that know enough to work that closely with the Shadows are probably under orders to stay home and wait "for the right time".
The Shadows DO have a game plan and they are unlikely to appreciate anyone messing it up.

The game plan is pretty obvious: Periods of War and Chaos followed by periods of quiet, rebuilding and getting used to the new technologies that have come out of the war.
Every war generates a jump in the level of technology.
After the war, the civilization needs to learn how to Live with the new tech. To raise a few generations that take it for Granted.
Then, the Shadows come back and kick the anthill over again.

One of the things to note is that the first sign of a new war is the Shadows RETURNING to Z'Ha'Dum.
The Vorlons drive them away.
They come back.
Given the level of paranoia indicated by their habit of remaining invisible 99% of the time, they undoubtedly hibernate somewhere that even the most trusted of their servant races cannot find or encroach on.

Probably somewhere that even the other First Ones can't find them.
They don't strike me as being very Trusting.

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The 3 most common elements in the Universe:
Hydrogen, Greed, Stupidity!

 

[Jade Jaguar]

I only disagree with one thing, Bakana. It is the Vorlons' proxies who drive the Shadows away, not the Vorlons themselves. We are given to believe that when Sheridan persuades Kosh to have the Vorlons attack the Shadows on behalf of the Alliance, that is the first time they engaged them directly.

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You're speaking treason! Olivia De Havilland as Maid Marian
Fluently! Errol Flynn as Robin Hood
You're talking treason! Olivia De Havilland as Arabella Bishop
I trust I'm not obscure. Errol Flynn as Dr. Peter Blood

Pallindromes of the month: Snug was I, ere I saw guns.
Doom an evil deed, liven a mood.

 

[A_M_Swallow]

The Shadows may simply go into hiding on Z'Ha'Dum and not appear on the planet's surface. The Shadows would need some sort of doomsday weapon to prevent the other First Ones from attacking them.

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Andrew Swallow

 

[bakana]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> The Shadows may simply go into hiding on Z'Ha'Dum <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


No, it was clearly stated two or three times that the Shadows were Driven Away and that the signal that the war is starting again is the Shadows Return to Z'Ha'Dum.

Lorien says it quite clearly:
Every time they are driven away, they return.
They think they are showing respect.



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The 3 most common elements in the Universe:
Hydrogen, Greed, Stupidity!

 

[hypatia]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KoshN:

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[/IMG]

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"I do not believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense,
reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."—Galileo

hypatia@b5fan.b5lr.com

 

[bakana]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> A few years later they activated a ship they had stored on a small red planet in the sol system, and found it had been fitted with a beacon and followed by a science vessel to their home <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, the evidence shows that it was the research team Digging the ship Up that activated it.
Or more precisely, set off an alarm that let the Shadows know the ship had been disturbed.
The Shadows then sent Another Ship to activate it and take it home. Chances are, the second ship was carrying a "CPU/Pilot" for the one buried on Mars.

Considering the fact that the ship was buried deep on a dead world, only a fairly advanced race would have been able to get to Mars in the first place, let alone find the ship and dig it up.

By all indications, it was buried there sometime in the 1300s. We were just getting a handle on Gunpowder at the time. Crossbows were still a viable weapon of war.

One very good probability is that the Shadow vessels served an additional purpose just by the way hiding places were selected for them.
They let the Shadows know when primitive races have advanced far enough technologically to be of interest/use in the periodic wars.



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The 3 most common elements in the Universe:
Hydrogen, Greed, Stupidity!

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Actually, the fact that the Drakh seem to have vanished at pretty much the same time as the Shadows...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Not so. The Shadows vanished a thousand years ago, the Drakh a few centuries ago. Not the same time at all...


About that "Drive them away, and then they return"...
Well, this is one of the instances in B5 where we're stuck with a little contradiction.
We have many instances where we're told the Shadows were driven from Z'ha'dum, and their returning heralds their next "activity period"
But then we also have the story of the Icarus, which tells us their people woke up the Shadows at Z'ha'dum.
Personally I think the latter is a bit incorrect, as we know the Shadows were back some time before the Icarus arrived at Alpha Omega Three - it followed the beacon signal from the ShadowShip on Mars after all.
So I believe most of the Shadows hibernate somewhere safe, and leave only a skeleton crew to oversee the automated systems at Z'ha'dum and their remaining minions (those that survived Valen's alliance); which probably were ordered to keep their heads down until their masters tell them to act. Those minions were probably the ones who invited the Drakh to come to Z'ha'dum and work for the Shadows. Some time around the EA-Minbari war the Shadows returned to Z'ha'dum and slowly & silently started preparing for their next time of chaos, activating their fleets, etc. A few years later they activated a ship they had stored on a small red planet in the sol system, and found it had been fitted with a beacon and followed by a science vessel to their home - that "woke them up" in some sense - they realized someone was onto their moves. And they recruited and sent Morden to deal with it, while speeding up their activities just in case. The rest is B5 history...

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"ShadowScout"
Roman Alexander

"Go on, watch out for Shadows - we'll watch you right back!"

What do you want?
ShadowShips!

 

[KoshN]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hypatia:

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your cat image isn't showing up.

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KoshN
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Vorlon Empire

"To Live and Die in Starlight"
pilot movie for "Babylon 5 - The Legend of the Rangers"
January 19, 2002 at 9PM & 11PM EST, January 20, 2002 at 5PM on The Sci-Fi Channel (US).
http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/

 

[hypatia]

Yea, I figured it out last night. mysmilies.com changed the http address on me!

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"I do not believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense,
reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."—Galileo

hypatia@b5fan.b5lr.com

 

[A_M_Swallow]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>
About that "Drive them away, and then they return"...
Well, this is one of the instances in B5 where we're stuck with a little contradiction.
We have many instances where we're told the Shadows were driven from Z'ha'dum, and their returning heralds their next "activity period"
But then we also have the story of the Icarus, which tells us their people woke up the Shadows at Z'ha'dum.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If the Shadows do leave Z'ha'dum, rather than go underground, then their main planet(s) is around somewhere waiting to be found. The planet could be hidden in hyperspace; it may even be a spaceship like the other first ones. By its nature the Shadow rest planet would have to be covered in Shadow defence systems - unless they are very trusting of the other first ones. Bad news for someone when that place is found.

In this scenario Z'ha'dum becomes a forward military base. At the end of previous wars the surface constructs are destroyed, the pillars survive (or are repaired) and the underground constructions continue to operate.

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Andrew Swallow