Another War WIthout End question

[RMcD]

Refa was never already dead, so it can't be him. Dead is dead,
and the only one who fits that description would be Sheridan.

jms

Well, JMS does have a wry, twisted sense of humour, and I wouldn't put it past him to get a kick out of posting deliberately misleading information on points like that..

But your explanation is neat.. You negated the main argument I would have used against its being Sheridan, that Londo doesn't kill him. I'm convinced

 

[KoshFan]

Gaaah! Not that again. Didn't JMS also post that the thing about prophecies is that you can interpret them as you please?

I personally feel that Morden fits the best, because Londo has three chances left: saving the eye that does not see (presumably G'Kar's), not killing the man who is already dead (either Morden or Sheridan) and surrendering to his greatest fear, knowing it will destroy him. That third option will save him if he doesn't get the other two right.

And can you think of any story, any where or any time, in which when someone is offered three chances at redemption he gets it right the second time?


As to War Without End and its problems, I think the major issue was that Babylon Squared set up one side of a story which then had to be radically changed essentially on the fly to account for the Sinclair/Sheridan handoff. JMS had kind of painted himself into a corner.

 

[vacantlook]

And can you think of any story, any where or any time, in which when someone is offered three chances at redemption he gets it right the second time?

And Londo doesn't get it right the second time. He comes close, but he realizes that ultimately he failed at his second attempt, that the Keeper will wake up and countermand his orders that he gave to help Sheridan escape, and the Keeper will have Sheridan put to death immediately.

 

[GKarsEye]

There is no rule that says Londo couldn't have taken both of the last two chances. By surrendering himself to his greatest fear, he also did not kill the one who was already dead.

From the point of view of "redemption," it would be fitting tor it not to be someone so negative, like Morden. The idea of redemption is to make up for some bad shit you did. Saving Sherdian, G'Kar's eye, etc, that would fit more than sparing a dude like Morden.

 

[B5_Obsessed]

I believe Lady Morella's words were something along the line of "You have three more chances to save yourself from the darkness that awaits you."

Sparing Morden wouldn't have helped him any after blowing up the island of Selini. And if he hadn't blown it up, the Shadows would have still retained power on Centauri Prime.
Either way, no appreciable improvement for Londo. After Corianna 6, the Shadows would still have been gone and the Drakh would still want revenge. He may have survived, but the stain of darkness would remain.

The release of Sheridan was a pivotal moment where, after 16 years of silent manipulation by the Drakh, Londo tells the Sheridans what is going on and beseeches them to save his world. So HE didn't kill Sheridan under his own power, which was Chance #2.

Unfortunately, his Keeper would kill them, so Chance #3 (if all else fails) had to be used to ensure their escape and redeem Londo's soul.

 

[Flounder]

Well, Londo kind of did "save the eye that does not see", in that he saved G'Kar. If "save the eye that does not see" meant stopping G'Kar's eye from being cut out, that doesn't make any sense. The eye did see, untill it was cut out. And then how do you "save" that eye? Putting it in a jar and put it on display in the Royal Palace? Having it re-attached?

Londo saved G'Kar. Londo did not kill the one that is allready dead. And Londo surrendered to his greatest fear (also G'Kar), knowing that it would destroy him.

And when it comes to Morden, he was more allive than many on Z'ha'dum, like those who had been a "battlecrab" CPU.

But for this to fit...

"You have a chance few others will ever have, Mollari. You still have three opportunities to avoid the fire that waits for you at the end of your journey. You've already wasted two others. You must save the eye that does not see. You must not kill the one who is already dead. And at the last, you must surrender yourself to your greatest fear, knowing that it will destroy you. Now, if you fail all the others, that is your final chance for redemption."

....doesn't Londo have to fail the middle two of those five (saving the eye and not killing the one)?

It fits for not killing the one. He tries to save him, but fails because of the keeper. That works.

But when it comes to G'Kar, what happens that spoils his saving of G'Kar. He saves him, but fails because .... what? How does he try but fail to save the eye that does not see?

There's poetry in this though: To not kill the one who is allready dead, he has to surrender to his greatest fear knowing that it would destroy him, and to do that he had to save the eye that does not see.....

 

[GKarsEye]

Um... no.

G'Kar's eye failed to see Cartagia's "glory." Cartagia had it removed because he was bothered by the stare (it laid bare what a monster he was, wereas everyone else looked at him with reverence and fear). When Cartagia asked Londo on his advice, Londo said something like "whatever your Majesty feels is appropriate," thus doing absolutely nothing to help. And so the eye was not saved.

 

[Flounder]

GKarsEye: Yeah. I get that. But I can't see how it's the "eye that does not see" while he still has it?

What world-changing consequences did the removal have, though...except making G'Kar hate the Centauri even more than what he did before?

Can we see eye to eye on this? (Fun fact here, my last name is prononuced two different ways in Norwegian. The most common being the same as "eye" in Norwegian.)

 

[deaded]

The Eye is such a fascinating entity. The third Technomage book delves into this but wow, it basically IS the shadows. We could have a whole trilogy on the Eye.

 

[Flounder]

There's no similarity between the B5 universe and Tolkien's Middle Earth. None, what so ever, I tell you!

When it comes to what the Eye actually is, there is a twist to it that makes the B5 universe quite different to the Lord of the Rings.

 

[RMcD]

GKarsEye: Yeah. I get that. But I can't see how it's the "eye that does not see" while he still has it?

I guess it means metaphorically, not literally. G'Kar's whole story is about his journey to enlightenment. At the time of Lady Morella's prophecy, he was getting there but he wasn't there yet. It was a kind of 'blinding light on the road to Damascus' thing. The scales fell from his eyes (well, eye) and after that he could 'see'.

However, if Londo had spoken out while G'Kar was being tortured, he might (arguably) have saved the eye, perhaps because Cartagia would at that point have lost interest in the Narn to concentrate on punishing the traitor Mollari instead.

Similarly, Londo did not accomplish anything by killing Morden, since at the end the Vorlon planetkiller was called away from Centauri Prime to join the battle at Corianis 6. So it was a pointless murder, and yet another black mark against his soul. It might even have been a factor in the Drakh's decision to infiltrate Centauri Prime, although I guess they'd have done it anyway.

And if it was Sheridan, and not Morden.. Well, killing him would obviously have been a bad idea.

 

[deaded]

Similarly, Londo did not accomplish anything by killing Morden, since at the end the Vorlon planetkiller was called away from Centauri Prime to join the battle at Corianis 6. So it was a pointless murder, and yet another black mark against his soul.

I'd have to argue there. Killing Morden was not pointless and if anything it REMOVED a black mark from his soul (if that's possible). It signified to him and us the end of his cooperation with the Shadows (little did he know...). But still, Morden needed to be killed. He'd been asking for it for a long time and it would not have been fair to let Vir commit another murder.

 

[A_M_Swallow]

Similarly, Londo did not accomplish anything by killing Morden, since at the end the Vorlon planetkiller was called away from Centauri Prime to join the battle at Corianis 6. So it was a pointless murder, and yet another black mark against his soul.

I believe that killing Morden was needed. Even during the Coriana 6 battle destroying a planet containing Morden and a fleet of Shadow ships would have been a sensible thing for the Vorlons to do. The Shadow ships were reinforcements and Morden was a major carrier of the hated ideology. Destroying Centauri Prime would have only delayed the Vorlons by a few minutes – Morden + Londo could be worth those few minutes.

 

[Flounder]

Oh, wait. In Londo's dream, G'Kar was missing an eye. So it did make sense that he should save the eye that does not see. Well, that would work to get Cartagia's wrath turned away from G'Kar and towards Londo. But not too much, then, because if Londo didn't remove Cartagia, who would? Somebody in his house that would do it to avenge Londo?

In other words, how did it affect the ebbs and tides of the universe to have G'Kar with or without the eye?

 

[RMcD]

But still, Morden needed to be killed. He'd been asking for it for a long time and it would not have been fair to let Vir commit another murder.

Because he was asking for it? That's not justification to kill someone!! At least, not where I come from..

The shadow vessels had already been blown away, and both Morden and Londo were in equally deep with the shadows.. Although Londo was too thick to see that, and couldn't have predicted that the Vorlons would be called away at the last moment, so that's some mitigation, perhaps..

But my main gripe with Londo is that of my facourite recurring B5 villains, Neroon, Refa, Morden and Bester, only Bester survived into Season 5. Londo has a lot to answer for there..

 

[Sindatur]

Flounder, how is it that you can see Londo failing at "Not Killing the one who is already dead" because the keeper woke up, but, you can't see he failed at "Saving the eye that can't see" because the keeper woke up?

If you take the Eye that can't see as being all of G'Kar, rather than just G'Kar's eye, surely you must see that the keeper killed G'Kar when it woke up, and through this surrendering to his greatest fear he saved the man who is already dead.

 

[PillowRock]

d both Morden and Londo were in equally deep with the shadows.. Although Londo was too thick to see that, and couldn't have predicted that the Vorlons would be called away at the last moment, so that's some mitigation, perhaps..

Yes, it didn't occur to Londo initially that the Vorlons would still consider him to be too much Shadow influance even after he had blown up their ships etc. However, once the concept *did* come up he was perfectly willing to let Vir kill him to save the planet.

And yes, he couldn't have predicted the Vorlon planet killer being called away.

I would definitely consider the killing of Morden to have been justified under the circumstances.

 

[PillowRock]

In other words, how did it affect the ebbs and tides of the universe to have G'Kar with or without the eye?

It might not have.

However, the prophesy was not about how Londo could save the galaxy, or even Centauri Prime.

The prophesy was about how Londo could save *himself* from the fire that awaited him. It was about his personal redemption. Stepping between Cartagia and G'Kar to save G'Kar (especially G'Kar, a Narn, given Londo's original attitudes Narns; not to mention his preminition about his own death) and accepting the consequences of that ...... that would have been the kind of act that would have signified enough personal growth and change for the better that would have redeemed Londo to a large degree.

 

[KoshFan]

But did Londo kill Morden to save Centauri Prime... or out of revenge for Adira?

Besides, I'm still dubious about the dramatic arc of the whole thing... it doesn't sit right with me that Londo gets two chances almost on top of each other in the last minutes of his life. It may be what JMS had in mind -- but if so my respect for his storytelling has dropped a bit.

I personally feel that Londo's true redemption was giving up his freedom to the Keeper at the end of season five.

 

[GKarsEye]

But I can't see how it's the "eye that does not see" while he still has it?

That's because you didn't read my post carefully.

The prophecy isn't literal.

To Cartagia, G'Kar failed to see his power/majesty/superiority/glory. This confused and annoyed him. What G'Kar did see with that stare, and did not hide, was Cartagia's depravity.

Londo's chance at redemption was when Cartagia asked his advice on what to do about the stare (the eyes that didn't "see"). Londo did nothing. The mistake some make is that they assume any attempt to help G'Kar would have harmed himself and thus ruin his assassination plot. This is not true. He knew how to handle Cartagia and could have made up some BS like suggesting he be blindfolded or knocked out and phrased it in a way to make Cartagia believe he was offering genuine advice, not helping G'Kar.

What world-changing consequences did the removal have, though...except making G'Kar hate the Centauri even more than what he did before?

The prophecy never spoke of world-changing consequences, just of personal redemption. Certainly helping many people is a form of redemption, but so is helping one person, which is a running theme of the entire series (ie, Comes the Inquisitor).

Destroying Centauri Prime would have only delayed the Vorlons by a few minutes – Morden + Londo could be worth those few minutes.

IIRC, killing a planet takes a planetkiller more than a few minutes. At that moment, its presence was urgent at Corianus 6. It would have left had Morden still been there as well.

Still, wiping out a Shadow fleet on your homeworld is a good idea no matter what.

And whether killing Morden (and especially the gruesome display of his head on a pike) is a mark against or for Londo is entirely dependant on your personal morality. For instance, I personally feel it is neither, as I have no remorse over Morden's death but generally find the practice of immediate execution and particularly medieval style body-part displays to be distasteful.

In other words, how did it affect the ebbs and tides of the universe to have G'Kar with or without the eye?

This is a matter of speculation, of course, but I think it's important to G'Kar's personal philosophical development as well as his relationship to Londo. Given the importance these two men play in their worlds' development as prophet and emperor, any subsequent consequences can be quite significant.

If you take the Eye that can't see as being all of G'Kar, rather than just G'Kar's eye, surely you must see that the keeper killed G'Kar when it woke up, and through this surrendering to his greatest fear he saved the man who is already dead.

Are you suggesting that his failure to save the eye that doesn't happen actually happens at the same time as failing to not kill the one who is already dead- that all three chances happen almost simultaneously right before his death?
That's a new one to me.

Yes, it didn't occur to Londo initially that the Vorlons would still consider him to be too much Shadow infulance even after he had blown up their ships etc. However, once the concept *did* come up he was perfectly willing to let Vir kill him to save the planet.

I don't think anyone could of thought of that. Can't blame him for that one. And, IIRC, even he didn't think of it. Vir was the one who realised it.

I personally feel that Londo's true redemption was giving up his freedom to the Keeper at the end of season five.

Londo was always willing to sacrifice for his people, so that act, while noble, does not signify a change or growth.

Ignoring prophecy, I consider his greatest act of growth realising the futility and immorality of the Centauri attitude towards the Narn. Yes, he ordered the end of Narn occupation after Cartagia's death to fulfill his agreement wth G'Kar, but I think he wanted to anyway- a far cry from his attitude in the beginning of the series.