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B Squared / War Without End Question(s)

Alluveal

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I watched War Without End Part 1 and 2 last night again and realized something. Garibaldi mentions "seeing a firefight" (from the future) while on Babylon 4 and it not turning out so well. I thought Garibaldi's vision was about Lise and Sinclair was the one who had the vision about the firefight.

Also, Delenn seemed to know a lot about Sinclair going back and that he would eventually become Valen. I assume this was in the letter she received? Or, did she know for longer about Sinclair? The Minbari were aware that Sinclair had a minbari soul (the soul of Valen) but I'm curious what others think on this.

Thanks!
 
To my recollection, some people on Babylon 4 saw multiple time flashes. That might explain Garibaldi.

As for Delenn knowing/suspecting where Valen came from (this would limit the possibilities of who could become Valen)... she had seen pictures of Babylon 4 in Minbari use, and surely recognized the design on arrival to Babylon 5.

That would suggest it was a Human. Which human could it be? Knowing the history of Babylon 4 (disappeared with crew) but its state on arrival (Valen and Zathras) she would suspect it would reappear -- to allow the crew escape close to their "time of origin".

Suspicion would focus on anyone who knew of its reappearance (especially went there, or commanded Babylon 5). Those people would be receptive to traveling with that tin can later.

She would suspect some human who had a connection to the Minbari... knew of the Council... knew Minbari ways... had expertise in warfare, but also administration. She would suspect it was Sinclair from early on.

After her own transformation, she would also know the effect of transformation on facial structure. Had she possessed any visual records about Valen, she could have used a computer program to calculate a Human appearance matching his face.

Unfortunately to that avenue of speculation, it would appear to me that Valen had covered his tracks, leaving behind no accurate clues for identification.

Getting a letter from Valen in Sinclair's handwriting and English language... would probably remove any remaining suspicion.
 
Delenn and the Gray Council have known that Sinclair had Valen's soul since the Battle of the Line (as indicated to them by the Triluminary). Thus Delenn's continual concern for Sinclair. When the Soul Hunter comes to Babylon 5, she is not at all afraid for herself at first -- otherwise she would have kept a closer watch, and not been so easily surprised by the Hunter in her own quarters. No, she was afraid for Sinclair. She does not kill him, when indirectly ordered to by the Gray Council. She believes that because he has the soul of Valen, he has a destiny. She probably did not put all the pieces together about how he actually was Valen until the B4 mystery was unraveled a bit more.
 
Delenn and the Gray Council have known that Sinclair had Valen's soul since the Battle of the Line (as indicated to them by the Triluminary). Thus Delenn's continual concern for Sinclair. When the Soul Hunter comes to Babylon 5, she is not at all afraid for herself at first -- otherwise she would have kept a closer watch, and not been so easily surprised by the Hunter in her own quarters. No, she was afraid for Sinclair. She does not kill him, when indirectly ordered to by the Gray Council. She believes that because he has the soul of Valen, he has a destiny. She probably did not put all the pieces together about how he actually was Valen until the B4 mystery was unraveled a bit more.

Remember that the Minbari believe that the souls of the dead are reborn in future generations. The "soul of Valen" is in reference to the fact that Sinclair had his soul--was a descendant of Valen, like Delenn (for whom the Triluminary glowed as well). The shock was that a human could be related to the Minbari, and that it was one of their greatest figures.

It's my feeling that Delenn did not know Valen's true identity until she received a letter.
 
The Minbari didn't believe that Sinclair was "related" in any genetic sense to the Minbari. They believed that a Minbari soul had been reincarnated in him. There's a difference. (Because the Minbari believe that souls are reincarnated in the next generation, and because the Minbari population has been in decline for 2,000 years, and perhaps sharp decline for 1,000, there are "missing" souls that must somehow be accounted for. The glowing triluminaries - because they also scan other pilots at the Battle of the Line - suggest to them that these souls are being reborn into Human bodies.)

The Council thus accepts that the war must end because "Minbari must not kill Minbari", but they are by no means unanimous in their beliefs regarding Sinclair and his relation to the Minbari. Some believe he is Valen returned, others believe that he has some Minbair soul, perhaps even a Great Soul, but not Valen's, some don't believe any of it. This spilt explains their rather schizoid approach to Sinclair. They have him appointed commander of B5 because that somehow seems to accord with prophecy, but they order Delenn to watch over him and to kill him if necessary. (Delenn doesn't refuse the order to do so. It is more accurate to say that the precise conditions that would trigger it - his regaining his complete memory of what happened at the Line and her being aware that he has - never come about.)

They think he had a Minbari soul, perhaps even Valen's. They never for one second imagine that he might be Valen. Valen deliberately leaves them just enough information for them to do what they must do in the 2250s and 60s, without endagering the timeline. Delenn knew nothing of Valen's true identity until she received the letter.

As for Delenn knowing/suspecting where Valen came from (this would limit the possibilities of who could become Valen)... she had seen pictures of Babylon 4 in Minbari use, and surely recognized the design on arrival to Babylon 5.

That would suggest it was a Human.

I don't think Delenn had any reason for suspecting that anyone would "become Valen". I think we're projecting our own knowledge onto the characters. Delenn did recognize the design of the B5 station as similar to that of the Valen's station when she arrives to open her embassy, and she verified her suspicions by checking photographs of B4 itself. This certainly left her with a mystery, but no basis for making any assumptions about who was responsible for its apparent trip through time. The Humans, in fact, might have been near the bottom of her list.

1) Despite B4's being a Human station, with a Human work crew bringing it on-line at the time it disappeared, it apparently arrives in the 13th century with only two beings aboard it - a Minbari named Valen, and an alien of unknown origin called Zathras. There's no sign of the original crew. That the station later materializes and has the crew evacuated in 2258 leaving only the alien Zathras and the ghostly space-suited figure aboard only deepens the mystery.

2) Delenn says that the Minbari have no way to control a time field "this unstable". That suggests that the Minbari have some technology that involves time, and some ability to manipulate it. That makes the Minbari themselves far and away the most likely race to have engineered the theft of B4.

3) The matter of Valen being "a Minbari not born of Minbari" does not necessarily suggest that Valen started life as some other species and then changed. We only see it that way because we know the whole story. The phrase itself no doubt originated because one he returned to Minbar, Valen had no satisfactory way to account for himself. In a society ruled so strongly by family, clan and caste, it would have been immediately obvious that Valen had no realtives, no history, no employment or school records... Imagine someone running for President or Prime Minister today who could not produce a driver's license, a family, a school transcript or a birth certificate. The adult "orphan" Valen had to be explained. But that would have been as true if he'd been a clone created in a Vorlon lab or a time-travelling Minbari as in any other case. And saying that he was a "Minbari not born of [any living, known] Minbari" would have been as true of the clone or the time traveller as of Sinclair.

4) OTOH, B4 vanished years before either the Minbari or Sinclair became associated with the Babylon Project - which suggests that some other agency was responsbile.

Regards,

Joe
 
I don't think Delenn had any reason for suspecting that anyone would "become Valen".
Why not? She knew that Valen arrived from essentially nowhere, accompanied by Zathras, another traveler from essentially nowhere.

It would not be a big leap... after learning that Babylon 4 arrived from the future... to suspect that Valen too arrived from the future.

This begs the question of who became Valen. Minbari or Human? Who? In my imagination, Delenn would consider the possibilities... and suspect Sinclair. Not strongly at first -- but increasingly more as pieces fall together.

Bear in mind: Sinclair was capable of operating Babylon-class stations. After accepting the role of Entil'zha, he was likewise developing capability of leading/establishing the Rangers. No Minbari administrator or commander possessed that combination of abilities.

Moreover, Delenn was already during the first season... assembling a device which transformed her. Even if her own transformation should have surprised her... after it happened... she would not discard the possibility of someone else doing it.

She knew, after all... that Valen brought the triluminaries. Why then should she assume... that Valen could not have used one?
 
I think if Delenn, for some reason, believed that someone had "become" Valen she would more strongly suspect the Vorlons of engineering it than anything else (for there were two Vorlons present as well as Valen and Zathras) and the mere fact that the Vorlons were involved would make more mundane speculation seem unnecessary! :LOL:
 
I wasn't clear enough in my post. By "become Valen" I meant starting out as some other species and "turning into Valen". Obviously an existing being took on the role and name of Valen.

Regards,

Joe
 
Until she received Valen's letter Delenn could not be certain that Valen was not a Minbari such as Lennier.

We do not know what the prophecies that Valen had given to warn the Minbari of the coming of the Babylon stations. They do appear to have been cryptic – things like the uniting of the souls.
 
My take on this is that during the last days of the Earth-Minbari War, Delenn and the other members of the Grey Council discovered that Sinclair possessed Valen's soul and that there were other Humans that possess Minbari souls.

I also believe that it wasn't until she received Sinclair's letter, at the beginning of "War Without End, Part I" that she discovered that Sinclair was Valen . . . or that he will be once he goes back to the past.
 
My question is...just how did the Grey Council determine that Sinclair had VALEN's soul. It's not like there's a monitor hooked up to the triluminary or anything. There are not flashing readouts that say "Valen! Valen! Valen!" If the triluminary glowed for most or all of the human Starfury pilots that the Minbari captured, then how could they tell that Sinclair was special? Of course we know that the triluminary wasn't detecting souls at all, but more likely human DNA. But my question remains valid. How did they link Sinclair to Valen?
 
In "Atonement", we learn that Dukhat told Delenn (the details came too late) of the triluminary's very selective powers; it only glowed in the presence of descendents of Valen (parts of Valen's soul). This, and the details of Valen's descendents and their outcast, had been known on the Grey Council but was not publicly circulated.
 
A commonly accepted interpretation is that the Triluminary glowed in the presence of Human DNA, and that for a thousand years among the Minbari this meant the descendents of Valen.

But this tells us that if the Triluminary glows for all Humans, then the Minbari had other tests we didn't see in order to separate Sinclair from the herd.
 
A commonly accepted interpretation is that the Triluminary glowed in the presence of Human DNA, and that for a thousand years among the Minbari this meant the descendents of Valen.

But this tells us that if the Triluminary glows for all Humans, then the Minbari had other tests we didn't see in order to separate Sinclair from the herd.

Delenn (and JMS on the 'net) says that the council was divided about how to interpert the Triluminaries reaction to Sinclair. All accepted that it indicated a Minbari soul. (Since there was no way a Human could be a descendent of a Minbari, and the Minbari already beleived that the "missing" souls indicated by their declininig population must be going somewhere.) Some thought it indicated a "Great" soul of some sort, others that it specifically indicated Valen's soul.

Lenier says that when they tested the other Human pilots they found that Minbari souls were being reborn "in whole or in part" in the other Humans. This would seem to indicate that the triluminary itself reacted in slightly different ways to different individuals. I think vacantlook is right, it glowed more brightly for Sinclair than for the others, thereby indicating a purer or more highly developed Minbari soul. This, along with Valen's prophecy of the Minbari having to join with the "other half" of their people and about his own return, led some (mostly religious caste) Council members to see Sinclair's Minbari soul as a sign, and him as a possible candidate to be Valen returned to them.

That put them in a delicate position, since a false prophet can be a dangerous as a real one can be helpful. That's why they kept everything about Sinclair such a deadly secret, from the Humans and from their own people. That's why they both set Delenn to watch over him and ordered her to kill him if he seemed to be recovering his memories on his own, before they had figured out who he really is and what part he has to play in the future.

Regards,

Joe
 
Something that I haven't seen mentioned in this thread is the Vorlons. I'm not suggesting that they played a role in identifying Valen or Minbari souls in Humans, and indeed Delenn was keeping their presence a secret. But for how long? Between the end of the war and the establishment of Babylon 5, I strongly suspect Delenn filled the rest of the council in on what the Vorlons had told her, and perhaps in the interim they had also told her more. We can only speculate, of course, but the Vorlons may have had an impact on Minbari decisions after the war ended.
 
Between the end of the war and the establishment of Babylon 5, I strongly suspect Delenn filled the rest of the council in on what the Vorlons had told her

Quite possible. On the other hand the prophecies of Valen may have been quite enough to guide the Minbari in their actions, and much of what they did might have been done by the religious caste alone - the Warriors may have decided that their dealings with Earth and the other races were a minor matter, unworthy of their notice, and simply let the religious deal with them as they saw fit.

So it is also possible that Delenn and the Vorlons kept their secret (because they knew the old intelligence maxim that says the chance of a secret's being revealed is equal to the square of the number of people who are in on it) and didn't "officially" meet a Vorlon until Kosh arrived on the station. (Someone who has read To Dream in the City of Sorrows more recently than I have can tell me if the book sheds any light on when Ulkesh arrived as amabassador to Minbar, and if he and/or Kosh were there before B5 went on line.)

Regards,

Joe
 
Ulkesh is on Minbar when Sinclair arrives, but as the book starts with Sinclair's arrival on Minbar that doesn't tell us much.

I have always wondered that nothing more was made of the fact that the Vorlons had shown themselves in terms of the Military Caste's attitude. After all, their objection to believing that the Shadow War was about to start was based on the fact that the Vorlons hadn't shown themselves, and yet when the Vorlons DID show themselves they didn't seem to reconsider. Why didn't Delenn throw THAT in their face at the meeting that broke the Grey Council? It seems to me a powerful argument.
 

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