B5 and Important Parallels

[Recoil]

Many people have commented as to some of the themes in B5 really tying into current events. Lyta even posted a link to that guy on Sci-Fi Wire whose letter said that Marcus's quote really helps him relate to his students about current events. I had mentioned that GKar's monologue at the end of Z'Ha'Dum really could parallel the 9/11 incident, if you take out the alien race references. Today I thought of another parallel.

One of the main reoccuring themes of B5 is that 'humans build communities.' In several episodes that very phrase was used. Delenn also talked to the Gray Council in 'Babylon Squared' that us humans are very diverse, and from that diversity comes strength. Also throughout the series it talked of humans building vast communities from diverse and sometimes hostile environments and races. And in the end it was the humans who pulled all the different races together and formed the ISA. Well here is what, at least in my opinion, we could tie that to currently.

(and this is the part where all you Canadians and folks who are overseas comment on me and my typical American Ego)

To me this very much rings true of the United States. We have many different cultures, religions, and beliefs, and freedom to do all of the above. We have to be the most diverse country in the world. In no other place as so many different cultures meshed into one country, under one government. And from the diversity comes our strength. In many ways I think of B5 being the future equilivant of the US. At least I thought we seem to fit the mold of 'humans build communities' and 'from their diversity comes strength'.

Any other thoughts?

 

[Jomar]

There is a lot of truth in what you say. I might add that Canada has as many communities (ie citizens from various other countries) and also the same freedoms as the US, However I see The United Nations as being closer to the ideals of the ISA, or it would be if it lived up to the ideals of the founders.

 

[RW7427]

That's a good observation Recoil. I would have to agree with you on that. I think Jomar is right about Canada as well. Any country that has such a melting pot like ours and Canada's is bound to have differences in the people of the country. Now, sometimes those differences can lead to war and predjudice and things like that, but many times they can also be a uniting factor. Each ethnic group, race, religion, whatever, has unique qualities to bring into the mix. Sometimes people from other groups decide to check out what others are about. Then they can develop a respect and an appreciation for other groups. Understand and excepting those that are different from you is key.

 

[A_Ranger]

Our diversity is definately a uniting factor. In the middle east, you have countries constantly fighting each other over hundreds year old feuds. But in America, it doesn't exist. We're allowed to believe what we want and we're subjected to other viewpoints, so we generally don't have an attitude of prejudice or violence or self-righteousness towards other cultures.

 

[Recoil]

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by A_Ranger:
<font color=yellow>Our diversity is definately a uniting factor. In the middle east, you have countries constantly fighting each other over hundreds year old feuds. But in America, it doesn't exist. We're allowed to believe what we want and we're subjected to other viewpoints, so we generally don't have an attitude of prejudice or violence or self-righteousness towards other cultures. </font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>
I wouldnt say such issues DONT exist here. They do, and we arent perfect. But as a country we certainly arent as volitile as other regions of the world, and there is an overall effort to work out our differences.

 

[SigmaC13]

Humans build communities. I agree with that. I also agree that the US is a melting pot of different cultures, religions, and beliefs. And the country has done a remarkable job in being quite arguably the most open society around.

This successful system of yours is held together by a framework that has worked well for you - i.e. the ideas and ideals enshrined in your Constitution. People who move to the country accept and are further socialised into believing in those ideas, and propagating them because these ideas help to ensure that the society remains open and accepting of outsiders. I believe that this openness tends to be a trait of immigrant societies. (I refer to the fact that almost all Americans today are descendants of immigrants from somewhere else and are not truly 'native' to the place.)

But, unfortunately, I may have to be one of the first dissenters to this post. Yes, I am one of the 'folks who are overseas', which means I see the USA differently from the way you do. It's only natural since a house looks very different to a person inside and another outside.

The very success of the system tends to leads people who are part of the system to think that they are the greatest, the best, and everyone ought to be like them. It's a natural and very human reaction. I am not criticising it. But I have to say that not everyone thinks the same way. To illustrate, someone may think that his 5-storey air-conditioned house with the swimming pool, drive-in cinema, attached bar and disco, plus hot happening parties every weekend, is the world's greatest place. It's wonderful, so everyone ought to have a great place like this! Unfortunately, the neighbours may think the very same place is an architectural monstrosity that blocks the sunlight, produces too much noise and pollution, and is a general nuisance.

The humans in B5 who built the community of the ISA tried to build bridges, to bring together diversity and build strength through unity of the members. (Although, I honestly cannot tell what the motivations of the alien races who joined the ISA actually were/would be.) This community-building has developed quite well in the US. Nevertheless, to say that B5 is the future equivalent of the US would be stretching it a bit in my view. I'd prefer to put it that the current qualified success of the US gives us hope that a future like what the B5 universe portrays is possible.

 

[SigmaC13]

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by A_Ranger:
<font color=yellow>Our diversity is definately a uniting factor. In the middle east, you have countries constantly fighting each other over hundreds year old feuds. But in America, it doesn't exist. </font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>
I'm sorry, but I have to make one additional point here. It's a little unfair to compare one country not fighting with itself, with several different countries that are allegedly fighting each other. The Middle East is not a single national entity, unlike the USA.

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Diversity makes us stronger.<hr></blockquote>Diversity definitely makes you stronger. It allows you to try out more options, test more models and eventually find more solutions. But when diversity is combined with conflict, the price tag is usually terrible. Diversity can create wonderful things. Diversity provoked into conflict can leave long-lasting wounds.

I would think that Delenn emphasized the best sides of humanity. She was not a spoilsport. She could have also listed thousands of miserable failiures, along with self-destructive behaviour. She did not because she believed that, under the right conditions, beings can learn. That beings can use their better qualities, avoiding the worse.

She tried to create such conditions. Conditions where diversity could exist in peace. Because usually, such conditions are hard to achieve. But when you achieve them, the reward is great. I would say that Delenn saw something in Human traditions which she wanted to apply, something which under the right conditions does much good.

Unfortunately she also saw that the Humans had never fully succeeded in creating such conditions. They had built great things, but always destroyed their creation. Minbari societies rarey destroyed what they built, but the cost of this was lack of flexibility. Quite naturally, Delenn wanted to figure out what made these things possible, and combine the best of them.

Inspired by the successful cooperation of many races against common enemies, the Interstellar Alliance was an attempt to create such cooperation in peacetime. Crucial to this was applying several principles well known among the Humans. Quite naturally, it had huge obstacles to overcome. It overcame them. It did not last forever, but nothing ever does.

----

I rather like the idea of the European Union. Trying to create something well-balanced in a situation with different languages, different economies and many national borders. Even many wars, still fresh in memory. I like it and support it. Knowing that such attempts usually fail, I support it twice as much. It promises great benefit.

Rarely have different nations been united by anything but force. Empires are built by force. Only quite recently in the history of our species have large unions appeared which are not kept together by oppression. Usually they are kept together by a common enemy. But there are some exceptions.

Among the earliest of such achievements was the USA. It had the advantage of originally being rather limited and quite coherent. It had the advantage of having one main language. It had the advantage of refugees, helping people see similarities better than differences. It grew gradually and gained some stability. I rather like the result.

Canada is quite similar, with some remarkable differences. Canada has differences in language, but it too was "built from scratch" helping people see common interests instead of old animosities. Canada also reminded me of the British Commonwealth, another loose union involving many nations.

My personal experience is from the USSR. This was an empire built by force. It involved many nations and efficiently suppressed internal conflict... but nevertheless it only suppressed the conflict. It created unity at the cost of oppression. What is assembled by force tends to fall apart when the force is removed.

Yugoslavia united several initially hostile nations. It was partly created by force, and partly by common enemies. It was not maintained with much force. In fact, it allowed much more individual and economical choice than the USSR. I even suspect that had there been more time, Yugoslavia could have taken the challenge and made the transition from a forced union into a natural union.

But time was short, and it failed to create balance. Failed to remove the tensions between nations. When the fall of the USSR destabilized things, Yugoslavia too fell, into civil war. The topic of war, or lack thereof reminded me of Switzerland. Unless I am mistaken, the country has lasted without civil conflict between its three main national/language groups. What was created by a common enemy became a permanent alliance.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>This successful system of yours is held together by a framework that has worked well for you - i.e. the ideas and ideals enshrined in your Constitution.<hr></blockquote>You hit the nail on its head, but perhaps in a too narrow sense. /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif What is essential for diversity to work... are the right conditions. A good framework, ways to resolve conflicts without suppressing them. Without letting them escalate. Having a well-written constitution is part of this.

 

[A_Ranger]

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Recoil:
<font color=yellow>
I wouldnt say such issues DONT exist here. They do, and we arent perfect. But as a country we certainly arent as volitile as other regions of the world, and there is an overall effort to work out our differences. </font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>

I said "generally," thus implying that issues do exist

 

[superbob]

Where I come from, There is one group of people heel bent on wreaking havoc for the sake of revenge. Another group doesn't like another group based on one of the following:race, culture creed or religion. Sometimes because of all of them. Maybe it's a base principle of being sentient. Thinking doesn't mean an individual or a group is smart or knows what it's doing. The problem is that a a group like the UN is so far removed from the problem that they have a vague, academic idea of said problem. So what they percieve as a solution can more often than not inflame the situation.
Unfortunately we're discussing a form of politics here and one of the rules I have is don't discuss politics or religion, a friendly debate can turn horribly nasty.

 

[Tigara]

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by superbob:
<font color=yellow>The problem is that a a group like the UN is so far removed from the problem that they have a vague, academic idea of said problem. </font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>
True. Frankly the UN doesn't have any real commanding authority. A loose economic and political system like the UN simply isn't enough. If they don't start showing a stronger fist in the middle east with their peace plans, eventually the situation will go critical and we could have a massive worldwide problem. I know this isn't a revolutionary idea but this is a B5 parellel thread. The EA was set up to colonize Mars and the moon(unfortunately the first Mars colony fell victum to torrorists). The moon base was successful. Realizing the potential the EA continued and although it had it's turmoil, using a stong fist they kept the peace until our difference were fully worked out. We need a single full world government. Not a loose confederation.

 

[RW7427]

I also think that one person's unique abilities can help to enhance and compliment someone else's totally different abilities. That can work well on a larger level as well, even one the size of a country like the US with over 250,000,000 people.

 

[TheInfection]

I have noticed that the current situation in the Middle-East has parallers to the Centauri and the Narn. Revenge is the only thing that matters for them.

Regards,
TheInfection

 

[Recoil]

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by TheInfection:
<font color=yellow>I have noticed that the current situation in the Middle-East has parallers to the Centauri and the Narn. Revenge is the only thing that matters for them.

Regards,
TheInfection </font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>
True, although the reasons for revenge are different. Wars arent started and based on Religious beliefs in B5. But you are right, the end result is very similar. However I do think perhaps JMS had other historical situations in mind regarding the Narns and the Centauri.

 

[A_Ranger]

When I hardly even remember the existence of the UN, it says something about the impact they're making. But hey, I don't know what to do anymore than anyone else

 

[RW7427]

Yeah, it seems to me that the UN does little more than let the US be the world's policeman.

 

[SigmaC13]

*jumps in to stir things up a bit*

Well, some might argue that the UN cannot do anything simply because the US vetos many of the attempts to get the UN involved. The US is one of the Permanent 5 members of the Security Council and (together with Russia, China, UK and France) has a veto, and uses it. Very often, the US has specific interests in NOT letting the Security Council get involved. After all, if the Council can get involved in X-country, what is to stop it from eventually 'meddling' with the US's actions in whatever other country? There have also been people and countries that have come out and accused the US of crippling the UN by simply refusing to pay up on its arrears.

Having said the above, let me clarify that the US is *NOT* the only country responsible for holding things up or being 'obstructionist'. But to imply that the UN is useless or that it shifts the burden of world policing to the US may not be entirely fair.

<Usual caveat - I am not America-bashing. I am just pointing out an alternative view. Please don't hurt me! /ubbthreads/images/icons/tongue.gif>

 

[RW7427]

Well, we do have the world's best equipped army, so a lot of the world's policeman duties invariably fall to us because there is no one else to do them.

 

[SigmaC13]

I agree with that. The US has often shouldered a large military burden, and it does have very well-equipped forces.

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

The UN coordinates *many* kinds of humanitarian efforts, including those not meant for temporary relief, but actually changing and directing some social processes (environment, agriculture, medicine, equal rights, education). It coordinates peacekeeping, using expertise and resources from a wide variety of countries. And it serves as a forum. Considering the different situations and views of its many members, I would say that it does a lot. Which does not prevent me from saying it should do more, and be more efficient.