B5 DVD Quality

[Za_Ha_Dum]

Hi everybody out there,

I believe most of you are not quite happy with the quality we can see in the B5 DVD so far. The bottom line is, WB did not fully take advantage of the video and audio quality available in the DVD technology.

I have been visiting lately the "Home Theater Forum" as recommended by JoeDMartino. So I have the following question for the tech people out there.......

Can we, somehow, make it better the image we get from B5 DVD´s? For instante, would you say that upgrading your DVD regular player to a Progressive Scan DVD player can improve image quality? Can we improve audio quality?

My concern is because we can see majority of B5 chapters quite dark. Are you experiencing same problem?

Take care,

CADU
Zahadum

 

[sleepy_shadow]

I watch it on a laptop... so I cannot exactly claim to have a good reference system. Getting the brightness/contrast right for TFT did require manual adjustment in software.

With a cheap soundcard and cheap earphones (not to speak of cheap ears) I am not well placed to comment on sound.

 

[Kyehlar]

I have a low-end DVD player, so I'm hoping that's what's it. I'm planning on getting a new progressive-scan player soon with the tax-refund. So we'll see how that pans things out. Cause it is quite dark in places, for my viewing.

Rommie :devil:

 

[kin_of_zathras]

I don't expect LotR Extended Edition audio-visual quality from B5 considering they made all 5 seasons and the tv movies for less than the cost of Fellowship of the Ring.

B5 was purposefully shot very dark - read the Lurker's Guide page for Points of Departure.

I'm just glad to have the series in a format that won't degrade. I certainly won't buy B5 if its released in HD-DVD format in a decade unless they redo the cgi and restore the film prints. As it is its barely good enough for DVD.

 

[Lyra]

Hey

I have to say, that I am major disappointed in the entire handling of our beloved show from WarnerBro$.

It is appalling how this company simply Sh%£! on its fans and most importantly how they have no control over the errors they have made on these DVDs. AND YES they have been major errors!

Anamorphic screw ups, bad picture, bad sound, spelling errors( I'll never understand who pulled that one over us "Minibari"???) and the list goes on...

What I don't understand is, don't Warner have any quality control? I mean there is NO quality in these series, the lack of features they put on these shows, not to mention the pocket money they invested in the commentaries, in fact as far as I recall, JMS, didn't even get anything for the first ones... And the hidden features on these discs are a total joke, I mean I love them but the quality is to cry about...

And to top it off they have no control over their release dates, no strategy. I mean the menus suck, the episodes are not re-mastered, NOTHING IS DONE WITH THE SHOW! If it has then it is very little... This is the only real good Sci Fi Warner has and it screwed us totally... I wish someone would buy the rights and make a new version of the series...

A friend of mine has them on Laserdisc and he made me a comparison where he made one episode into a DVD and showed me just how much more work went into the LDs...

I know most people are just happy that they have the series, but trust me, from what I have seen Warner sets B5 on its lowest priority, the worst thing is that they know these DVDs sell... So why are they like this? Simply, let it cost as little as possible for them so they can profit as much as possible... Only problem is that in the over all business view, Warner is lacking behind everyone else, eventually they will loose big time on their DVD sales...

I am sorry to say a very close friend of mine works at Warner and when I visit them I hear these things... And all the while I, like you cannot wait to get more Babylon 5... Yet these people spit in our faces...

I hope JMS, will get the right funding for the new show... Sorry I cannot tell you what the show is called, as I would be found out...

 

[sleepy_shadow]

eventually they will loose big time on their DVD sales...

If my preferences are any indication, they will not lose big-time. I find the quality quite tolerable. For the price they charge, I am willing to buy.

I never expected perfection. For someone just doing business, they have devoted a reasonable deal of attention into their product.

Since they are not fans... I cannot expect them to devote total attention (or discover every minor issue before release).

----- And now for the opinionated stuff. ------

how this company simply Sh%£! on its fans

I believe you are mistaken. It never occurred.

I mean there is NO quality

Certainly better quality than Laserdisc or VHS.

the lack of features

Which features did you expect them to bother with?
It's a TV show, for crying out just as loud.

the hidden features on these discs are a total joke

There are no hidden features.
The filesystem is plain open for reading.

they have no control over their release dates, no strategy.

Claims who, basing on which proof?

the episodes are not re-mastered

Pardon me, but I think they are.

and it screwed us totally..

Did they? I don't think so.

 

[Za_Ha_Dum]

Hey Lyra,

I must agree with "sleep shadow".

We cannot expect PERFECTION from the DVD release. You and others should understand that for WB, as a company, B5 is just another business project. They will not expend the money you would expect because WB does not have any feelings to B5, as we do.

We should separate BUSINESS to PASSION. We all love B5, and some of us would spend money to improve DVD release quality, but since we do not have either the power to influence WB nor the money to sponsor, so we have to look for an alternative. This alternative none of you answered so far.

CAN WE IMPROVE QUALITY IMAGE AND SOUND OF B5 DVD´s UPGRADING OUR DVD PLAYERS, OR IS JUST TECHNICALLY IMPOSSIBLE?

IF POSSIBLE WHAT WOULD YOU RECOMMEND? HOW WE SHOULD CALIBRATE IMAGES FROM DVD?

Regards,

Cadu
Zahadum

 

[GaribaldisHair]

Not to step into this argument, but just to back up one or two points ...

I have the entire series and TVMs on VHS, all bought pretty much on release date, and this cost me in the region of £600 all told.

I now have the first three seasons on DVD, and these cost me a total of around £100. Add in S4 and S5, and you are talking a total outlay of around £180-£200.

Picture quality on my brand new 28" 4:3 ratio TV in widescreen format is significantly better than my VHS tapes (some of which I am already wearing out) as is the sound - even though I am only listening in standard stereo and not surround.

The DVD sets come with loads of interesting background stuff in the Special Features - no sign of those on the VHS sets - with all the added convenience of massively reduced storage space, ease of use (no FF or rewind required) and durability.

On the general points, the sound has been re-mixed into Dolby 5.1, and given the well documented condition of the original film stock, following storage problems, I would imagine no amount of "re-mastering" could restore them to their original pristine condition.

All in all, IMHO, the DVD sets are a massive improvement over the VHS tapes at less than a third of the cost, and I for one am very happy with them.

 

[KoshN]

...and given the well documented condition of the original film stock, following storage problems, I would imagine no amount of "re-mastering" could restore them to their original pristine condition.

All in all, IMHO, the DVD sets are a massive improvement over the VHS tapes at less than a third of the cost, and I for one am very happy with them.

And who allowed the film stock to get into its current poor condition? Who did not clean up the video for even the worst of the dust, scratches, and some of which looks like a black ink splatter from a fountain pen?

Answer: Warner Brothers.



Oh, and who lost the CGI files?

Again, Warner Brothers.



And the improvement over Laserdisc isn't what I'd call massive, and wrt the CGI, the LDs are better. The DVD sets do have a big cost advantage, though. I just wish the worst of the glaringly bad defects could have been fixed via digital restoration.

The reason the DVDs are selling is that they are the only game in town.

 

[GaribaldisHair]

And who allowed the film stock to get into its current poor condition?

Answer: Warner Brothers.

Granted, but that is a separate issue from the DVDs. When it came to putting together the disks the condition of the fillm stock was just a fact - at that point, it doesn't matter whose fault it was.

And the improvement over Laserdisc isn't what I'd call massive, and wrt the CGI, the LDs are better. The DVD sets do have a big cost advantage, though. I just wish the worst of the glaringly bad defects could have been fixed via digital restoration.

Perhaps true, but I haven't seen the LDs (were they even available in the UK, I never saw them?) - my only point of comparison is the VHS tapes that I have seen, and the difference IMO is massive.

The reason the DVDs are selling is that they are the only game in town.

Perhaps also true, but it comes back to economics - the great balancing act of

How much can we spend on putting the sets together

vs

How much will we make back when we sell them

As has already been pointed out, for WB this is nothing more and nothing less than a business proposition. They do not share our feelings towards the show, and hence do not share our desire to treat it with the intense loving care and attention that we would like them to.

If the cost of putting the picture quality right outweighs the potential profit on sales then they just won't do it, same as if the original Gathering/ItB diak had flopped we probably wouldn't be seeing the season sets at all.

From what I have seen, heard and read it strikes me that WB badly underestimated the sales potential of the series on DVD (in spite of Joe DeM's well documented protestations over the years) and with the benefit of hindsight might well have been prepared to splash some more cash on things like picture, audio and extras.

Don't think I don't share your feelings and desire to see B5 produced in the maximum possible quality, because I do. However, if the price of having these sets at all is that some fans are disappointed that more money was not lavished on them, then we I am prepared to live with that.

Cheers,

 

[KoshN]

And the improvement over Laserdisc isn't what I'd call massive, and wrt the CGI, the LDs are better. The DVD sets do have a big cost advantage, though. I just wish the worst of the glaringly bad defects could have been fixed via digital restoration.

Perhaps true, but I haven't seen the LDs (were they even available in the UK, I never saw them?) - my only point of comparison is the VHS tapes that I have seen, and the difference IMO is massive.

The reason the DVDs are selling is that they are the only game in town.

Perhaps also true, but it comes back to economics - the great balancing act of

How much can we spend on putting the sets together

vs

How much will we make back when we sell them

As has already been pointed out, for WB this is nothing more and nothing less than a business proposition. They do not share our feelings towards the show, and hence do not share our desire to treat it with the intense loving care and attention that we would like them to.

If the cost of putting the picture quality right outweighs the potential profit on sales then they just won't do it, same as if the original Gathering/ItB diak had flopped we probably wouldn't be seeing the season sets at all.

From what I have seen, heard and read it strikes me that WB badly underestimated the sales potential of the series on DVD (in spite of Joe DeM's well documented protestations over the years) and with the benefit of hindsight might well have been prepared to splash some more cash on things like picture, audio and extras.

Don't think I don't share your feelings and desire to see B5 produced in the maximum possible quality, because I do. However, if the price of having these sets at all is that some fans are disappointed that more money was not lavished on them, then we I am prepared to live with that.

Cheers,

I am not asking for the "maximum possible quality" wrt to B5 DVDs. Indeed, I expect the same level of quality of Warner Brothers B5 DVDs as I expect of Berman & Braga's Trek writing, in other words, not much. I'm not asking that every speck of dust or scratch be retouched on the B5 DVDs with the same level of care that's lavished upon a Hitchcock classic film (e.g. "Vertigo"), just that the "worst of the glaringly bad defects could have been fixed via digital restoration." That's all. How much could that have cost Warner Brothers to do?

 

[Za_Ha_Dum]

Someone out there,

Nobody is going to help us out about technical matters regarding best calibration and best DVD Player to watch our BELOVED Babylon Five DVD?

Garibaldi´s hair: No doubt it was important to have B5 in DVD media. No doubt it is much better than a VHS quality. No doubt about the reasonable price. However, and this I believe everybody should agree is that, a DVD video and audio resources has higher quality than what is seeing in the B5 DVD set. I do not understand why B5 came out so grainy and dark.....So again, comes to my original question.....

Can we reduce or eliminate grainy and darkness purchasing a specific DVD player with certain features?

PLEASE SOMEBODY ANSWER MY QUESTION. T H A N K Y O U!!!

Cadu
Zahadum

 

[KoshN]

Can we reduce or eliminate grainy and darkness purchasing a specific DVD player with certain features?

PLEASE SOMEBODY ANSWER MY QUESTION. T H A N K Y O U!!!

I don't know. My DVD Recorder/Player (Panasonic DMR-E30s) is progressive scan, but I usually play the B5 DVDs on the DVD Player I bought first (Sony DVP-S360) which isn't progressive scan. The signals get to the TV (a high quality 27" 4:3) via a 4:1 powered switch and composite video and left & right audio Monster Cables (RCA Phono connectors). On my setup, played thru the Sony, the B5 DVDs look fine (not "grainy"). Some scenes are dark, but I think they're supposed to be dark, e.g. the conspiracy meeting between Londo, Vir, and the other Centauri officials when plotting Cartagia's assassination.

Perhaps you should ask this on Home Theater Forum. JoeD should be able to point you to the right URL. I suspect the graininess may only be visible when the picture is enlarged on a big screen TV. If you enlarge anything enough, and sit close enough to the screen, you'll see the limits of the source material and/or media (e.g. grain or pixelation).

 

[Za_Ha_Dum]

Hi KoshN,

Thanks for giving a hint about your personal experience. So I have a new question....Have you experienced any difference in image between your regular DVD and the Progressive Scan DVD?

I am already a member of the Home Theater Forum. This question might be confusing for them since they do not know about B5 DVD, therefore no knowledge in DVD quality regarding B5 collection.

Take care,

CADU
Zahadum

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

The HTF was one of the primary sources of support for B5' release on DVD, and the live on-line chats with Warner Bros. executives were one of the places we lobbied to get the discs released. There have been lots of threads about the DVDs and the assorted problems they had on the forum.

Regarding film grain - well, film grain is grain in the film It is not an artifact of the DVD mastering process or of playback on a particular DVD player. Grain is inherent in film, and Super35 is known for exihibiting more grain than some other systems. TV shows, which don't have the time or the money to spend getting the lighting just perfect, or matching the film stock used for a given scene exactly to the lighting conditions will exhibit more grain than theatrical films, as a rule. DVDs will show whatever grain is present in a way that LD and VHS won't, because DVD is a higher-resoultion medium.

A progressive scan player might give slightly better results if connect to an HDTV, but only if all the other settings are properly adjusted. When the first season came out the loudest complaints were heard from those with very high end front projection systems and large screens. It turned out that these systems were misreading a flag on the DVDs (or the flag was mis-set) and they were switching to "film" mode when they should have been in "TV" mode. The result was that the expensive equipment made the discs look worse than they really were. Once people took their systems out off the "film" or "auto-sense" settings the discs looked much better - although, again, a big screen and a higher resolution playback system will magnify the flaws, as well as the strength of the source material on DVD.

By all means, start a thread on the HTF (in the new "TV shows" section of the HT Software Forum) about the B5 sets and look at how many replies you receive.

Regards,

Joe

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

...and given the well documented condition of the original film stock, following storage problems, I would imagine no amount of "re-mastering" could restore them to their original pristine condition.

All in all, IMHO, the DVD sets are a massive improvement over the VHS tapes at less than a third of the cost, and I for one am very happy with them.

And who allowed the film stock to get into its current poor condition? Who did not clean up the video for even the worst of the dust, scratches, and some of which looks like a black ink splatter from a fountain pen?

Answer: Warner Brothers.

Just wanted to deal with this specific point....

There are two schools of thought regarding the removal of film grain. Although it is possible to clean up a picture digitally without a massively expensive film restoration, it could cause a decrease in definition in the picture. For instance, Anchor Bay did a major digital clean-up job on their special edition DVD of Heathers, removing whatever film grain they could. The result was a visibly softer, fuzzier picture, especially when compared to the earlier, non-anamorphic release.

Therefore, while some people can't stand to see abundant film grain--even in older releases--others would rather studios left the grain in rather than softening up the image. Which is why the majority of the live action shots on the B5 releases are as sharp as they're ever going to be.

Personally, I think the B5 box sets are pretty solid. Most come with three commentary tracks, remixed Dolby Digital 5.1 on all episodes, anamorphic transfer in the intended aspect ratio, and some decent featurettes. Could they be better? Sure--I would have loved to have a season DVD suite on all of the box sets, the original stereo soundtrack, a retrospective 20 minute featurette rather than the introductions, and, like everyone, I wish Warners hadn't thrown the CGI files. But what's there is better than what's come before, and they're a better release than some other series sets out there.

 

[PillowRock]

while some people can't stand to see abundant film grain--even in older releases--others would rather studios left the grain in rather than softening up the image.

Sounds rather like some debates that I have seen about newer releases of old jazz and blues recordings.

 

[KoshN]

...and given the well documented condition of the original film stock, following storage problems, I would imagine no amount of "re-mastering" could restore them to their original pristine condition.

All in all, IMHO, the DVD sets are a massive improvement over the VHS tapes at less than a third of the cost, and I for one am very happy with them.

And who allowed the film stock to get into its current poor condition? Who did not clean up the video for even the worst of the dust, scratches, and some of which looks like a black ink splatter from a fountain pen?

Answer: Warner Brothers.

Just wanted to deal with this specific point....

There are two schools of thought regarding the removal of film grain. Although it is possible to clean up a picture digitally without a massively expensive film restoration, it could cause a decrease in definition in the picture. For instance, Anchor Bay did a major digital clean-up job on their special edition DVD of Heathers, removing whatever film grain they could. The result was a visibly softer, fuzzier picture, especially when compared to the earlier, non-anamorphic release.

Therefore, while some people can't stand to see abundant film grain--even in older releases--others would rather studios left the grain in rather than softening up the image. Which is why the majority of the live action shots on the B5 releases are as sharp as they're ever going to be.

snip

Wait a minute! Just how did you get from my "dust, scratches, and some of which looks like a black ink splatter" to your "regarding the removal of film grain" ? Personally, I've always preferred a picture that had some visible film grain and a high acutance picture, to a softer picture which had less film grain. Hell, it's one of the reasons why I like Kodachrome 200, and Tri-X (in a developer which does not reduce grain size).

With regard to my "dust, scratches, and some of which looks like a black ink splatter," I was just talking about restoring the few specific frames that contain the worst of those film defects (and by defects, I'm not talking about grain).