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B5 DVD review
- Thread starter sputnik
- Start date
DVD File has posted their review of the B5: In the Beginning/The Gathering DVD. And believe me, they let their feelings about the DVD, its quality and Warner's treatment of B5 (and their DVDs) be known.
I have copied and paster the article for those who don't actually want to visit the URL.
http://www.dvdfile.com/software/review/dvd-video_4/babylon5_gathering.html
BABYLON 5: THE GATHERING / IN THE BEGINNING
Warner Home Video / 2001 / 185 Minutes / Not Rated
Street Date: December 4, 2001
Reviewed by Dan Linzmeier on December 11, 2001.
Babylon 5 is one of those series that has been surrounded by controversy throughout its entire run. When it first premiered back in 1993, it drew immediate comparisons to Deep Space Nine. (I think there was even some sort of lawsuit involved at one point, but I'm not 100% certain?) After decent ratings and three years in syndication, the plug was pulled on the series, causing a heated letter-writing campaign by the show's fans, which eventually brought the series back to life on TNT. But even that last-minute resuscitation couldn't save the patient, and the show was canceled after season 4. Another letter writing campaign ensued, and brought back B5 yet again for its fifth and final season. Executive producers J. Michael Stracznski and Douglas Netter were finally able to complete their pet project, which was always intended as a five-year show.
After a rather halfhearted mass-market release on VHS and laserdisc in 1998 and 1999, Warner abruptly pulled the plug on any future releases due to poor sales. Many Internet news groups blamed B5's poor sales on the formats and the potential sales juggernaut that B5 would be on DVD. Many within these groups celebrated after the cease fire, assuming this cleared the way for B5 on DVD. But ever since, the rabid Babylon 5 fan base, have been screaming at Warner to release B5 on DVD for nearly three years, and now it is finally here. But Babylon 5 has arrived, not with a bang, but a whimper.
Warner has decided to test the market by releasing a “Two Volume Set” which includes the show's original pilot episode, The Gathering, and the season five stop gap premiere episode, In The Beginning. After being spoiled by Fox and HBO, who have been releasing full-season box sets of their shows on DVD for a while now, seeing Warner only this two-parter is frustrating. And, in that grand tradition, these episodes are even out of order.
Now before you B5 geeks out there scream, “the events of these episodes are chronologically correct!” let me put that into the perspective of a casual Babylon 5 fan. What are the problems of including In the Beginning with The Gathering? It's a twofold situation. First are the questions related to The Gathering such as, what happened to Sinclair, Girabaldi and the other numerous humans that were part of the pilot episode? How did Londo become the Emperor of Centuari Prime, and why is his homeland destroyed? Where's the original telepath? Why are the backstories focusing on some doctor named Franklin, a Russian named Ivonava, and some guy named Sheridan? On the second level there are the secrets that In The Beginning ruins, such as the history of the “Battle on the Line,” and every race's relationship to one another. Most of these subplots were drawn out during the run of the series, leaving major gaps.
So, Warner has placed the fans for Babylon 5 in a bit of a catch-22. They're basing future releases of Babylon 5 on this release, so if you a B5 fans and don't buy this, the odds are you won't see any more Babylon 5. But buying this disc doesn't guarantee any additional volumes of B5, either. Warner has set ambiguous sales goals that no one outside of their marketing department is privy to. What does this means? Even if the sales of this disc are decent, we'll never know. Thus, if Warner doesn't feel like continuing with the series, which is my hunch, they'll claim the sales weren't solid enough to warrant investing in more releases...we'll see.
Video: How Does The Disc Look?
After the promises that Babylon 5 was going to be released in widescreen on laserdisc, that promise has finally been fulfilled on DVD. While The Gathering is been presented in its original full frame aspect ratio, In The Beginning is presented in anamorphic widescreen. The show was shot on super 35 film, which lends itself to multiple aspect ratios, so In The Beginning and every other episode (save The Gathering) were shot with high-definition television in mind.
Still, the picture quality of both episodes is only fair to marginal. It's tough to gauge the overall picture quality of this disc, because the elements for each episode are all over the place. The show frequently pops back and forth from smoke-filled corridors to razor sharp computer-generated exteriors. While The Gathering contains less digital artifacts than In The Beginning, the image is much softer. In The Beginning also suffers from some nasty moiré patterns. The color and contrast levels are as varied as the film elements. Fleshtones slip from very natural to beat red, though black levels are dead on most of the picture. Both of these episodes show marginal improvements over their original full-frame laserdiscs counterparts from 1999, but are still quite lacking.
Audio: How Does The Disc Sound?
OK, boys and girls say it with me, “If you're only going to include only one soundtrack on a DVD, and it is surround, encode it as PCM!” While both Babylon 5 films are presented in 2.0 surround, these Dolby Digital tracks pale in comparison to the original 2-channel PCM mixes included on the laserdisc. I know PCM eat up a lot of space on a DVD, but would it be that difficult to include it for two 90-minute movies?
The Gathering's soundtrack is just one step above mono. The majority of the stereo and surround sound effects are limited to Christopher Franke's score. The are a few cool flybys with the spaceships, but overall envelopment is very limited. Even the dialog seems a bit strained, which make no sense for a show that is less than ten years old. Bass is, as expected, weak.
In The Beginning is slightly more aggressive than The Gathering, but not much better in terms of fidelity or dynamics. There is a little better use of ambient sounds, but overall the soundtrack is flat. At least the dialog elements for this episode are in better shape and don't suffer from the same cramped feeling. Surrounds are still lacking and bass dull. I wish Warner would have sprung for 5.1 remixes for these episodes, as it sure would have helped.
English Closed Captions and French subtitles are also included.
Supplements: What Goodies Are There?
And you thought the supplements on the Star Trek television series were bad. Even the menus scream, “Take it and shut up.”
DVD-ROM Exclusives: What do you get when you pop the disc in your PC?
No ROM extras have been included.
Parting Thoughts
I supposed we're all supposed to be grateful that Warner has put together this first “set” of Babylon 5 episodes, but I'm insulted. I, along with many other people, have already bought the original release of B5 on home video, I'm not going to hold my breath assuming Warner's going to get it right this time. I'll be honest, if I hadn't received the review copy for this release I wouldn't have spent the money. $19.98 would be a good price for a special edition of these episodes, but as you can tell, this release isn't very special at all.
------------------
We say atoms are bound by
weak attractors.
Why not admit the truth:
The universe is held together by love.
Michio von Kerr,
Wayist physicist,
CY 9942
GENE RODDENBERRY'S ANDROMEDA
"BANKS OF THE LETHE"
I have copied and paster the article for those who don't actually want to visit the URL.
http://www.dvdfile.com/software/review/dvd-video_4/babylon5_gathering.html
BABYLON 5: THE GATHERING / IN THE BEGINNING
Warner Home Video / 2001 / 185 Minutes / Not Rated
Street Date: December 4, 2001
Reviewed by Dan Linzmeier on December 11, 2001.
Babylon 5 is one of those series that has been surrounded by controversy throughout its entire run. When it first premiered back in 1993, it drew immediate comparisons to Deep Space Nine. (I think there was even some sort of lawsuit involved at one point, but I'm not 100% certain?) After decent ratings and three years in syndication, the plug was pulled on the series, causing a heated letter-writing campaign by the show's fans, which eventually brought the series back to life on TNT. But even that last-minute resuscitation couldn't save the patient, and the show was canceled after season 4. Another letter writing campaign ensued, and brought back B5 yet again for its fifth and final season. Executive producers J. Michael Stracznski and Douglas Netter were finally able to complete their pet project, which was always intended as a five-year show.
After a rather halfhearted mass-market release on VHS and laserdisc in 1998 and 1999, Warner abruptly pulled the plug on any future releases due to poor sales. Many Internet news groups blamed B5's poor sales on the formats and the potential sales juggernaut that B5 would be on DVD. Many within these groups celebrated after the cease fire, assuming this cleared the way for B5 on DVD. But ever since, the rabid Babylon 5 fan base, have been screaming at Warner to release B5 on DVD for nearly three years, and now it is finally here. But Babylon 5 has arrived, not with a bang, but a whimper.
Warner has decided to test the market by releasing a “Two Volume Set” which includes the show's original pilot episode, The Gathering, and the season five stop gap premiere episode, In The Beginning. After being spoiled by Fox and HBO, who have been releasing full-season box sets of their shows on DVD for a while now, seeing Warner only this two-parter is frustrating. And, in that grand tradition, these episodes are even out of order.
Now before you B5 geeks out there scream, “the events of these episodes are chronologically correct!” let me put that into the perspective of a casual Babylon 5 fan. What are the problems of including In the Beginning with The Gathering? It's a twofold situation. First are the questions related to The Gathering such as, what happened to Sinclair, Girabaldi and the other numerous humans that were part of the pilot episode? How did Londo become the Emperor of Centuari Prime, and why is his homeland destroyed? Where's the original telepath? Why are the backstories focusing on some doctor named Franklin, a Russian named Ivonava, and some guy named Sheridan? On the second level there are the secrets that In The Beginning ruins, such as the history of the “Battle on the Line,” and every race's relationship to one another. Most of these subplots were drawn out during the run of the series, leaving major gaps.
So, Warner has placed the fans for Babylon 5 in a bit of a catch-22. They're basing future releases of Babylon 5 on this release, so if you a B5 fans and don't buy this, the odds are you won't see any more Babylon 5. But buying this disc doesn't guarantee any additional volumes of B5, either. Warner has set ambiguous sales goals that no one outside of their marketing department is privy to. What does this means? Even if the sales of this disc are decent, we'll never know. Thus, if Warner doesn't feel like continuing with the series, which is my hunch, they'll claim the sales weren't solid enough to warrant investing in more releases...we'll see.
Video: How Does The Disc Look?
After the promises that Babylon 5 was going to be released in widescreen on laserdisc, that promise has finally been fulfilled on DVD. While The Gathering is been presented in its original full frame aspect ratio, In The Beginning is presented in anamorphic widescreen. The show was shot on super 35 film, which lends itself to multiple aspect ratios, so In The Beginning and every other episode (save The Gathering) were shot with high-definition television in mind.
Still, the picture quality of both episodes is only fair to marginal. It's tough to gauge the overall picture quality of this disc, because the elements for each episode are all over the place. The show frequently pops back and forth from smoke-filled corridors to razor sharp computer-generated exteriors. While The Gathering contains less digital artifacts than In The Beginning, the image is much softer. In The Beginning also suffers from some nasty moiré patterns. The color and contrast levels are as varied as the film elements. Fleshtones slip from very natural to beat red, though black levels are dead on most of the picture. Both of these episodes show marginal improvements over their original full-frame laserdiscs counterparts from 1999, but are still quite lacking.
Audio: How Does The Disc Sound?
OK, boys and girls say it with me, “If you're only going to include only one soundtrack on a DVD, and it is surround, encode it as PCM!” While both Babylon 5 films are presented in 2.0 surround, these Dolby Digital tracks pale in comparison to the original 2-channel PCM mixes included on the laserdisc. I know PCM eat up a lot of space on a DVD, but would it be that difficult to include it for two 90-minute movies?
The Gathering's soundtrack is just one step above mono. The majority of the stereo and surround sound effects are limited to Christopher Franke's score. The are a few cool flybys with the spaceships, but overall envelopment is very limited. Even the dialog seems a bit strained, which make no sense for a show that is less than ten years old. Bass is, as expected, weak.
In The Beginning is slightly more aggressive than The Gathering, but not much better in terms of fidelity or dynamics. There is a little better use of ambient sounds, but overall the soundtrack is flat. At least the dialog elements for this episode are in better shape and don't suffer from the same cramped feeling. Surrounds are still lacking and bass dull. I wish Warner would have sprung for 5.1 remixes for these episodes, as it sure would have helped.
English Closed Captions and French subtitles are also included.
Supplements: What Goodies Are There?
And you thought the supplements on the Star Trek television series were bad. Even the menus scream, “Take it and shut up.”
DVD-ROM Exclusives: What do you get when you pop the disc in your PC?
No ROM extras have been included.
Parting Thoughts
I supposed we're all supposed to be grateful that Warner has put together this first “set” of Babylon 5 episodes, but I'm insulted. I, along with many other people, have already bought the original release of B5 on home video, I'm not going to hold my breath assuming Warner's going to get it right this time. I'll be honest, if I hadn't received the review copy for this release I wouldn't have spent the money. $19.98 would be a good price for a special edition of these episodes, but as you can tell, this release isn't very special at all.
------------------
We say atoms are bound by
weak attractors.
Why not admit the truth:
The universe is held together by love.
Michio von Kerr,
Wayist physicist,
CY 9942
GENE RODDENBERRY'S ANDROMEDA
"BANKS OF THE LETHE"
Sinclair97
New member
I hated the case!
The quality was fairly good.
The plots of course were as good as the 1st time I say them.
There is nothing that jumps out at you as WOW this is amazing!
I believe that every B5 fan should by one so that WB will continue to release the series.
All and all it is a fair DVD. In comparison to the Farscape DVD's (which have amazing picture and sound. And have extremely cool bonus features.) this B5 DVD stinks. I still believe it is EVERY B5 fans duty to get a copy.
------------------
"The truth points to itself."
--Kosh(The Original)from "In The Beginning"
The quality was fairly good.
The plots of course were as good as the 1st time I say them.
There is nothing that jumps out at you as WOW this is amazing!
I believe that every B5 fan should by one so that WB will continue to release the series.
All and all it is a fair DVD. In comparison to the Farscape DVD's (which have amazing picture and sound. And have extremely cool bonus features.) this B5 DVD stinks. I still believe it is EVERY B5 fans duty to get a copy.
------------------
"The truth points to itself."
--Kosh(The Original)from "In The Beginning"
Kribu
Administrator
Funny how the DVD File review keeps referring to the two movies as "episodes" - OK, I could somehow understand it in the case of the Gathering (pilot movie/pilot episode) but to call ItB an episode...?
And I must admit I didn't know that the show was cancelled after both S3 and S4.
------------------
"Narns, Humans, Centauri... we all do what we do for the same reason: because it seems like a good idea at the time." - G'Kar, Mind War
Kribu's Lounge | kribu@ranger.b5lr.com
And I must admit I didn't know that the show was cancelled after both S3 and S4.
------------------
"Narns, Humans, Centauri... we all do what we do for the same reason: because it seems like a good idea at the time." - G'Kar, Mind War
Kribu's Lounge | kribu@ranger.b5lr.com
Jade Jaguar
Regular
There is enough mistaken 'information' in that review to make one believe that DVD File's reviews aren't worth the electrons used to display them. The Jade Jaguar licks the rabid froth from his taut lips and stalks off.
------------------
You're speaking treason! Olivia De Havilland as Maid Marian
Fluently! Errol Flynn as Robin Hood
You're talking treason! Olivia De Havilland as Arabella Bishop
I trust I'm not obscure. Errol Flynn as Dr. Peter Blood
Pallindromes of the month: Snug was I, ere I saw guns.
Doom an evil deed, liven a mood.
------------------
You're speaking treason! Olivia De Havilland as Maid Marian
Fluently! Errol Flynn as Robin Hood
You're talking treason! Olivia De Havilland as Arabella Bishop
I trust I'm not obscure. Errol Flynn as Dr. Peter Blood
Pallindromes of the month: Snug was I, ere I saw guns.
Doom an evil deed, liven a mood.
Leto II
Regular
Ahh, but you see, Babylon 5 has had to continuously prove itself to the world-at-large time and time and time again: first, of course, the original pilot film's broadcast ratings plus a letter-writing campaign were necessary to take the story to series format at all; then, season after season we were faced with small prospects for renewal (and more letter-writing campaigns); the final season was just barely rescued at the eleventh hour by TNT (again, letter-writing played a factor here); Crusade fell prey to the vicious jackanapes at aforesaid network (much letter-writing ensued here as well, but to no avail this time); it took years of pressure upon Warner Brothers Home Video to get them to release the tapes and laserdiscs (yes...you guessed it: more letter-writing); these were unceremoniously dumped aside, with vague promises of an eventual DVD release upon the horizon, with nothing firmly writ in stone for a long age.
And more letter-writing.
Finally, we come to the year 2000: the Sci-Fi Channel broadcasts the series in widescreen, garnering impressive ratings...and, suddenly, Warners blossoms with talk of a DVD series release, and Sci-Fi commission a brand-new telefilm to serve as a pilot for a new potential series.
However -- you can see where I'm headed with this, I'm sure -- it seems that Warners have once again gotten cold feet vis-a-vis the DVD release (once again having been spooked by the spectre that once was Star Trek and its DVD performance), and opt only to release a "test" disc onto the marketplace to gauge how strong the demand is for a full-on series release (all the while prepping the episodes backstage, we've recently been told), and Sci-Fi are wanting fen to speak up and tell them if they want a new Babylon 5 series or not by way of ratings points and...
...more letter-writing, both to the Sci-Fi Channel as well as to Warner Home Video.
So, why is it seemingly fated that we in Babylon 5 fandom must continue to make our collective voices loudly heard anew every couple of years or so just to maintain the same identical level of product-development (not to undermine Mr. Straczynski's writing, here) for the series that it has seen lo these past five annums or thereabouts, when it should actually be on the increase after all of this time? (Barring, obviously, the so-called "Dark Age" circa 1999-2001, whence there were no new filmed Babylon 5 tales produced, a cold rain fell, and children were born antlered and hooved.)
Have we not spoken aloud enough? Very broadly speaking, why must the executives at Warner Home Video once again create an unrealistic onus of comparison between Babylon 5 and Star Trek once again??
Must this same tiresome procedure be repeated ad infinitum again and again for the next ten years or more? Is it God, evil leprechauns, or some other malevolent force that continuously assails us with the requirement to prove ourselves over and over and over again, when other media-SF stories following in Babylon 5's lofty wake (whose successes B5 may have helped to pioneer, incidentally) are now regularly being, or are on the cusp of, comparatively painless renewal and merchandising development year in and year out?
Perhaps, as some have pointed out, it is Straczynski's fate -- as the alpha-paradigm in this particular world -- to suffer so for his art and the opportunity to present it to the world.
And we all suffer alike in the process of getting each new story that is told...but in the utter end, the pain will lead to final vindication.
Faith Manages. (Or something.
)
------------------
[This message has been edited by Leto II (edited December 12, 2001).]
And more letter-writing.
Finally, we come to the year 2000: the Sci-Fi Channel broadcasts the series in widescreen, garnering impressive ratings...and, suddenly, Warners blossoms with talk of a DVD series release, and Sci-Fi commission a brand-new telefilm to serve as a pilot for a new potential series.
However -- you can see where I'm headed with this, I'm sure -- it seems that Warners have once again gotten cold feet vis-a-vis the DVD release (once again having been spooked by the spectre that once was Star Trek and its DVD performance), and opt only to release a "test" disc onto the marketplace to gauge how strong the demand is for a full-on series release (all the while prepping the episodes backstage, we've recently been told), and Sci-Fi are wanting fen to speak up and tell them if they want a new Babylon 5 series or not by way of ratings points and...
...more letter-writing, both to the Sci-Fi Channel as well as to Warner Home Video.
So, why is it seemingly fated that we in Babylon 5 fandom must continue to make our collective voices loudly heard anew every couple of years or so just to maintain the same identical level of product-development (not to undermine Mr. Straczynski's writing, here) for the series that it has seen lo these past five annums or thereabouts, when it should actually be on the increase after all of this time? (Barring, obviously, the so-called "Dark Age" circa 1999-2001, whence there were no new filmed Babylon 5 tales produced, a cold rain fell, and children were born antlered and hooved.)
Have we not spoken aloud enough? Very broadly speaking, why must the executives at Warner Home Video once again create an unrealistic onus of comparison between Babylon 5 and Star Trek once again??
Must this same tiresome procedure be repeated ad infinitum again and again for the next ten years or more? Is it God, evil leprechauns, or some other malevolent force that continuously assails us with the requirement to prove ourselves over and over and over again, when other media-SF stories following in Babylon 5's lofty wake (whose successes B5 may have helped to pioneer, incidentally) are now regularly being, or are on the cusp of, comparatively painless renewal and merchandising development year in and year out?
Perhaps, as some have pointed out, it is Straczynski's fate -- as the alpha-paradigm in this particular world -- to suffer so for his art and the opportunity to present it to the world.
And we all suffer alike in the process of getting each new story that is told...but in the utter end, the pain will lead to final vindication.
Faith Manages. (Or something.
------------------
[This message has been edited by Leto II (edited December 12, 2001).]
Leto, perhaps you haven't heard the all encompassing wisdom that drives Hollwierd:
"No one ever lost money Underestimating the American Audience."
It's an article of faith. The TV and Movie watching public is Stupid.
Just LOOK at the record: Dumb & Dumber.
Need I say more??
Babylon 5, OTOH, is designed to appeal to an Intelligent audience.
Worst than that, it makes people THINK.
Babylon 5 breaks All the Rules for Hollywood success.
It even breaks the rules for the SciFi subgenre As seen by Hollywierd by Not featuring large breasted women in brass bikinis in imminent danger of being ravaged by ugly drooling aliens.
And, of course, in need of rescue (and maybe an offscreen quickie) by the studly hero.
Having broken all the "Rulz", the amazing thing is that Babylon 5 made it on the screen at all, let alone Survived.
The H'Wood execs are puzzled by an audience they never knew existed: Intelligent Fans who actually Enjoy stuff that makes you think.
They are also a little bit Scared.
Stuff they don't understand always scares small minded people.
------------------
The 3 most common elements in the Universe:
Hydrogen, Greed, Stupidity!
"No one ever lost money Underestimating the American Audience."
It's an article of faith. The TV and Movie watching public is Stupid.
Just LOOK at the record: Dumb & Dumber.
Need I say more??
Babylon 5, OTOH, is designed to appeal to an Intelligent audience.
Worst than that, it makes people THINK.
Babylon 5 breaks All the Rules for Hollywood success.
It even breaks the rules for the SciFi subgenre As seen by Hollywierd by Not featuring large breasted women in brass bikinis in imminent danger of being ravaged by ugly drooling aliens.
And, of course, in need of rescue (and maybe an offscreen quickie) by the studly hero.
Having broken all the "Rulz", the amazing thing is that Babylon 5 made it on the screen at all, let alone Survived.
The H'Wood execs are puzzled by an audience they never knew existed: Intelligent Fans who actually Enjoy stuff that makes you think.
They are also a little bit Scared.
Stuff they don't understand always scares small minded people.
------------------
The 3 most common elements in the Universe:
Hydrogen, Greed, Stupidity!
B5_Obsessed
Regular
Ummm, I love "Dumb and Dumber".
------------------
"Draal gave Zathras list of things not to say.
This was one. No.... *tsk tsk*
No. Not good.
Not supposed to mention... "one", or... THE one.
Hmmmm.
You never heard that."
------------------
"Draal gave Zathras list of things not to say.
This was one. No.... *tsk tsk*
No. Not good.
Not supposed to mention... "one", or... THE one.
Hmmmm.
You never heard that."
Yeah, so do I.
Stupid can be funny, it's dumb drama that is the problem. Tha is of course unless it's unintentionally funny.
------------------
"Crying isn't gonna get your dog back. Unless your tears smell like dog food. So you can sit here eating can after can of dog food until your tears smell like dog food or you can go out there and find your dog."-Homer in The Canine Mutiny
Stupid can be funny, it's dumb drama that is the problem. Tha is of course unless it's unintentionally funny.
------------------
"Crying isn't gonna get your dog back. Unless your tears smell like dog food. So you can sit here eating can after can of dog food until your tears smell like dog food or you can go out there and find your dog."-Homer in The Canine Mutiny
D
**DONOTDELETE**
Guest
The median IQ of 16 year olds is 100. Most have their highest level of intelligence in the first year of their job, there after it drops. Any programme requiring an IQ higher than 100 to watch it has therefore immediately lost half of the population. Increase the difficulty to 120 or so and you lose about three quarters of the population. That leaves you with a maximum of a quarter of the population. It is rare for more than half the population to be watching TV, 1/8 population. Women do not appear to like science 1/16. 4 or 5 rival TV programmes 1/64.
USA pop (1995e) 262,693,000
Divide by 64 = 4.1 million max
Intelligent people can watch dumb programmes. So a simple program (IQ = 80) containing a woman friendly love affair, plus sex and violence can get an audience of say 40 million. Ten times the figure. Mass medias like cinema and TV will automatically target the bigger audience.
The next problem is channel limitations. For four channels catching half the USA population, each channel has to aim for 262,693,000/4/2 = 33 million at peak viewing time. Babylon 5 does not fit this category.
Now applying the calculation for 60 TV channels. 262,693,000/60/2 = 2.2 million. When Hollywood targets audiences of 2 million Babylon 5 becomes viable.
Where has the audience come from - the bandwidth of cable TV. Satellite TV has a lot of channels too. (PTEM was necessary.)
The other thing that is needed to keep Babylon 5 and its spin offs on the air is a group of advertisers that will pay one million dollars per episode.
------------------
Andrew Swallow
USA pop (1995e) 262,693,000
Divide by 64 = 4.1 million max
Intelligent people can watch dumb programmes. So a simple program (IQ = 80) containing a woman friendly love affair, plus sex and violence can get an audience of say 40 million. Ten times the figure. Mass medias like cinema and TV will automatically target the bigger audience.
The next problem is channel limitations. For four channels catching half the USA population, each channel has to aim for 262,693,000/4/2 = 33 million at peak viewing time. Babylon 5 does not fit this category.
Now applying the calculation for 60 TV channels. 262,693,000/60/2 = 2.2 million. When Hollywood targets audiences of 2 million Babylon 5 becomes viable.
Where has the audience come from - the bandwidth of cable TV. Satellite TV has a lot of channels too. (PTEM was necessary.)
The other thing that is needed to keep Babylon 5 and its spin offs on the air is a group of advertisers that will pay one million dollars per episode.
------------------
Andrew Swallow
Andrew, you obviously haven't been paying attention.
Babylon 5 has a HUGE female following.
Science Fiction in General attracts more and more women every year.
Last good SF Convention I went to, there actually seemed to be More women roaming the halls than guys.
Plus, Hollywierd hasn't figured this out yet, but the average SF fan happens to fall into the +120 IQ range.
True, you don't see them at Media (TV Show) conventions as much.
They show up in Droves for BOOK related SF Conventions, though.
And Babylon 5 related conventions.
For some reason, some very Smart fans who used to swear they would Never watch TV SF are watching Babylon 5.
It's a whole new demographic for Hollywierd.
They aren't quite sure how to handle it.
Babylon 5 keeps turning people's expectations upside down.
------------------
The 3 most common elements in the Universe:
Hydrogen, Greed, Stupidity!
Babylon 5 has a HUGE female following.
Science Fiction in General attracts more and more women every year.
Last good SF Convention I went to, there actually seemed to be More women roaming the halls than guys.
Plus, Hollywierd hasn't figured this out yet, but the average SF fan happens to fall into the +120 IQ range.
True, you don't see them at Media (TV Show) conventions as much.
They show up in Droves for BOOK related SF Conventions, though.
And Babylon 5 related conventions.
For some reason, some very Smart fans who used to swear they would Never watch TV SF are watching Babylon 5.
It's a whole new demographic for Hollywierd.
They aren't quite sure how to handle it.
Babylon 5 keeps turning people's expectations upside down.
------------------
The 3 most common elements in the Universe:
Hydrogen, Greed, Stupidity!
About the scene in ItB with Lenonn & the Grey Council ship:
On a small, cheap TV/VCR setup, that scene played with a lot of distortion. On a better TV & VCR setup, the scene was a lot better in terms of sound. I think it depends on the quality of your equipment.
As for the DVD, the only thing I hate is the DVD itself. No pictures on the disk, & tiny writing in the center to tell you what movie is on that side. All my other DVDs have pictures on the disks. The Farscape DVDs are especially cool.
Tammy
------------------
"We're in here! Can anyone hear us?"
"I hear you." [giggle, laugh]
"In here!"
"We are here." [giggle, laugh]
-- Londo and G'Kar in Babylon 5:"Convictions"
Tammy's Station
http://community.webtv.net/gkarfan/TammysStation
On a small, cheap TV/VCR setup, that scene played with a lot of distortion. On a better TV & VCR setup, the scene was a lot better in terms of sound. I think it depends on the quality of your equipment.
As for the DVD, the only thing I hate is the DVD itself. No pictures on the disk, & tiny writing in the center to tell you what movie is on that side. All my other DVDs have pictures on the disks. The Farscape DVDs are especially cool.
Tammy
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"We're in here! Can anyone hear us?"
"I hear you." [giggle, laugh]
"In here!"
"We are here." [giggle, laugh]
-- Londo and G'Kar in Babylon 5:"Convictions"
Tammy's Station
http://community.webtv.net/gkarfan/TammysStation
GKarsEye
Regular
Oh please.
"We're all so smart 'cause we watch Babylon 5." "B5 is for intelligent folks like us."
Space adventure, high drama, romance, war. These are things anyone can understand. B5 wasn't created for particularly intelligent people.
IQ has nothing to do with B5's audience. The audience is limited because of the cultural stereotypes associated with it.
I remember a sketch a while back on Saturday Night Live, where a girl kissed some nerd. The nerd got all excited and said, "Oh boy, I can't wait to tell all the guys in the Babylon 5 chat room about this!" And it got a big laugh.
See, Star Trek chat room would have sounded nerdy enough, but they went all out by using B5.
It is looked at as a poor man's Star Trek by most people, and unless some amazing things happen with the franchise (theatrical movies, etc), it always will be. This is also part of the reason the DVDs are having a tough time.
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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."
"We're all so smart 'cause we watch Babylon 5." "B5 is for intelligent folks like us."
Space adventure, high drama, romance, war. These are things anyone can understand. B5 wasn't created for particularly intelligent people.
IQ has nothing to do with B5's audience. The audience is limited because of the cultural stereotypes associated with it.
I remember a sketch a while back on Saturday Night Live, where a girl kissed some nerd. The nerd got all excited and said, "Oh boy, I can't wait to tell all the guys in the Babylon 5 chat room about this!" And it got a big laugh.
See, Star Trek chat room would have sounded nerdy enough, but they went all out by using B5.
It is looked at as a poor man's Star Trek by most people, and unless some amazing things happen with the franchise (theatrical movies, etc), it always will be. This is also part of the reason the DVDs are having a tough time.
------------------
"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."
Oh, I don't know. I think the more mainstream audience would find B5 too "talky", without enough action. My younger sister tends to like shows like Friends, & she has no interest in seeing B5. She isn't into deeper character exploration, like B5 has.
Tammy
------------------
"We're in here! Can anyone hear us?"
"I hear you." [giggle, laugh]
"In here!"
"We are here." [giggle, laugh]
-- Londo and G'Kar in Babylon 5:"Convictions"
Tammy's Station
http://community.webtv.net/gkarfan/TammysStation
Tammy
------------------
"We're in here! Can anyone hear us?"
"I hear you." [giggle, laugh]
"In here!"
"We are here." [giggle, laugh]
-- Londo and G'Kar in Babylon 5:"Convictions"
Tammy's Station
http://community.webtv.net/gkarfan/TammysStation
D
**DONOTDELETE**
Guest
Point one, a rambling about IQ.
From what I know about IQ, it is about as good a measure of intellect as your shoe size. I have a rough understanding of the methods used to determine it, but have never cared to take the test myself.
It has little to do with a person's ability to memorize and solve problems. It has absolutely nothing to do with the capability to understand, communicate and express. It has nothing to do with the ability to relate to people, nothing to do with the ability to doubt, criticize or debate. It has nothing to do with determination, nothing to do with motivation, stress or relaxation, interest or ignorance.
Therefore I consider it irrelevant as a measure of anything -- except the ability to solve certain tasks, specific to a certain age. IQ usually peaks at a certain age, for the simple reason that parts of the brain used for tasks similar to an IQ test are fully developed by then.
A person can be highly intelligent with an incredibly low IQ. Such a situation can be explained fairly easily. That person is simply strong in different types of problem-solving, using a different but possibly more efficient approach. Or the person has, instead of good "hardware", cared to load one's brain with quality "software".
Actually I tend to believe that contrary to generally accepted opinions even IQ can, to an extent, be practised. If you have solved tasks of similar nature for a significant part of your time, your brain will have allowed more stem cells to specialize into nerve cells in regions involved with these tasks. The blood supply (and hence the energy supply) of these areas will have also increased (as strained cells secrete chemicals to "order" more blood vessels). Unlike previously accepted ideas, it has recently been proven beyond doubt that a human brain can not only compensate the dying of nerve cells, but even increase their number if provided with a suitable environment.
So not only is IQ an inadequate measure, but the thing it tries to measure is fluid as well.
-------
Having now completed by rambling, I will try to drift back to topics slightly more related to science fiction. Social influences outweigh slightly more complicated storylines by many times.
"Science fiction is a thing for geeks."
"How can girls be interested in scifi?"
"It's scifi, you don't need character development."
"It's scifi, you need technobabble, not logic."
"Human factor? No such thing in the future."
"Nobody ever failed by underestimating the audience."
That kind of preconceptions (and the inability/unwillingness to overcome them) are wasting much good material regardless of genre. Anyone can appreciate a good story... if we get far enough to discover and accept it.
Science fiction has one great advantage over other kinds of storytelling. Distancing a reader/watcher from familiar social settings allows to ask questions which would otherise be impossible.
This is also the main weakness. To appreciate and enjoy these stories and questions, you need to get over the threshold of not laughing yourself mindless upon first sight of Londo Mollari's hair.
[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited December 14, 2001).]
From what I know about IQ, it is about as good a measure of intellect as your shoe size. I have a rough understanding of the methods used to determine it, but have never cared to take the test myself.
It has little to do with a person's ability to memorize and solve problems. It has absolutely nothing to do with the capability to understand, communicate and express. It has nothing to do with the ability to relate to people, nothing to do with the ability to doubt, criticize or debate. It has nothing to do with determination, nothing to do with motivation, stress or relaxation, interest or ignorance.
Therefore I consider it irrelevant as a measure of anything -- except the ability to solve certain tasks, specific to a certain age. IQ usually peaks at a certain age, for the simple reason that parts of the brain used for tasks similar to an IQ test are fully developed by then.
A person can be highly intelligent with an incredibly low IQ. Such a situation can be explained fairly easily. That person is simply strong in different types of problem-solving, using a different but possibly more efficient approach. Or the person has, instead of good "hardware", cared to load one's brain with quality "software".
Actually I tend to believe that contrary to generally accepted opinions even IQ can, to an extent, be practised. If you have solved tasks of similar nature for a significant part of your time, your brain will have allowed more stem cells to specialize into nerve cells in regions involved with these tasks. The blood supply (and hence the energy supply) of these areas will have also increased (as strained cells secrete chemicals to "order" more blood vessels). Unlike previously accepted ideas, it has recently been proven beyond doubt that a human brain can not only compensate the dying of nerve cells, but even increase their number if provided with a suitable environment.
So not only is IQ an inadequate measure, but the thing it tries to measure is fluid as well.
-------
Having now completed by rambling, I will try to drift back to topics slightly more related to science fiction. Social influences outweigh slightly more complicated storylines by many times.
"Science fiction is a thing for geeks."
"How can girls be interested in scifi?"
"It's scifi, you don't need character development."
"It's scifi, you need technobabble, not logic."
"Human factor? No such thing in the future."
"Nobody ever failed by underestimating the audience."
That kind of preconceptions (and the inability/unwillingness to overcome them) are wasting much good material regardless of genre. Anyone can appreciate a good story... if we get far enough to discover and accept it.
Science fiction has one great advantage over other kinds of storytelling. Distancing a reader/watcher from familiar social settings allows to ask questions which would otherise be impossible.
This is also the main weakness. To appreciate and enjoy these stories and questions, you need to get over the threshold of not laughing yourself mindless upon first sight of Londo Mollari's hair.
[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited December 14, 2001).]
D
**DONOTDELETE**
Guest
Please excuse me if this becomes a double post, but I'm testing whether this thread has stopped responding.
Kribu
Administrator
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lennier:
From what I know about IQ, it is about as good a measure of intellect as your shoe size.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Oh. That explains a lot. I've always wondered why I've got such unnaturally big feet - I haven't been able to buy women's shoes or boots for years now because they just won't fit!
I've taken quite a few IQ tests... purely for fun.
I mean, I know I'm stupid and don't have a clue about most things, no matter how high the result on some test.
As for B5 being directed at very intelligent people only... nah. Sure, it's a more intelligent show than many others out there, character-driven and one that makes you think (hopefully), but at the same time it's also "just" good entertainment and it should be possible to view it as such.
Which means that people with the attention span of about 5 seconds won't be able to watch it but anyone with at least some sort of average intelligence, and interest in characters, good drama and scifi shouldn't have any problems.
If anything, claiming that B5 is for "people with a high IQ" could even harm the show, scaring away perfectly normal people who figure it's something way beyond their grasp - or boring (like it or not, that would be many people's definition of an "intelligent" show if they have no direct experience with it themselves).
------------------
"Narns, Humans, Centauri... we all do what we do for the same reason: because it seems like a good idea at the time." - G'Kar, Mind War
Kribu's Lounge | kribu@ranger.b5lr.com
From what I know about IQ, it is about as good a measure of intellect as your shoe size.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Oh. That explains a lot. I've always wondered why I've got such unnaturally big feet - I haven't been able to buy women's shoes or boots for years now because they just won't fit!
I've taken quite a few IQ tests... purely for fun.
As for B5 being directed at very intelligent people only... nah. Sure, it's a more intelligent show than many others out there, character-driven and one that makes you think (hopefully), but at the same time it's also "just" good entertainment and it should be possible to view it as such.
Which means that people with the attention span of about 5 seconds won't be able to watch it but anyone with at least some sort of average intelligence, and interest in characters, good drama and scifi shouldn't have any problems.
If anything, claiming that B5 is for "people with a high IQ" could even harm the show, scaring away perfectly normal people who figure it's something way beyond their grasp - or boring (like it or not, that would be many people's definition of an "intelligent" show if they have no direct experience with it themselves).
------------------
"Narns, Humans, Centauri... we all do what we do for the same reason: because it seems like a good idea at the time." - G'Kar, Mind War
Kribu's Lounge | kribu@ranger.b5lr.com
D
**DONOTDELETE**
Guest
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>
Andrew, you obviously haven't been paying attention.
Babylon 5 has a HUGE female following.
Science Fiction in General attracts more and more women every year.
Last good SF Convention I went to, there actually seemed to be More women roaming the halls than guys.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I have been paying attention. That is why I mentioned the love stories. I suspect that JMS made Delenn female to double the audience. Sci-Fi USA has been boasting that half of its audience is female.
In the B5 magazine Bruce Boxleitner said that his wife Melissa Gilbert (Little House on the Prairie, Anna Sheridan #2) normally ignored his work, but she used to race to read the Babylon 5 scripts before he did.
I could have done the maths for the special case of Babylon 5 but decided to do it for the general case of science fiction. Just double the final number to add the ladies back.
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Andrew Swallow
Andrew, you obviously haven't been paying attention.
Babylon 5 has a HUGE female following.
Science Fiction in General attracts more and more women every year.
Last good SF Convention I went to, there actually seemed to be More women roaming the halls than guys.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I have been paying attention. That is why I mentioned the love stories. I suspect that JMS made Delenn female to double the audience. Sci-Fi USA has been boasting that half of its audience is female.
In the B5 magazine Bruce Boxleitner said that his wife Melissa Gilbert (Little House on the Prairie, Anna Sheridan #2) normally ignored his work, but she used to race to read the Babylon 5 scripts before he did.
I could have done the maths for the special case of Babylon 5 but decided to do it for the general case of science fiction. Just double the final number to add the ladies back.
------------------
Andrew Swallow
Jade Jaguar
Regular
I don't think that one needs more than average intellegence to appreciate B5, nor do I think that it was deliberately aimed at the more intellegent portion of the audience. BUT most TV is written so that a ten year old would not be challenged by it, and B5 is written for adults. And I doubt that anyone here would disagree when I say that paying close attention to detail, and a good memory for those things that only make sense many eps later, greatly enhance one's appreciation of it. All of these things would make it more likely to appeal to someone of higher intellegence than most of the lame TV fare.
------------------
You're speaking treason! Olivia De Havilland as Maid Marian
Fluently! Errol Flynn as Robin Hood
You're talking treason! Olivia De Havilland as Arabella Bishop
I trust I'm not obscure. Errol Flynn as Dr. Peter Blood
Pallindromes of the month: Snug was I, ere I saw guns.
Doom an evil deed, liven a mood.
------------------
You're speaking treason! Olivia De Havilland as Maid Marian
Fluently! Errol Flynn as Robin Hood
You're talking treason! Olivia De Havilland as Arabella Bishop
I trust I'm not obscure. Errol Flynn as Dr. Peter Blood
Pallindromes of the month: Snug was I, ere I saw guns.
Doom an evil deed, liven a mood.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Joseph DeMartino:
I went back and specifically watched the whole Lenon section from his conversation in the City of Sorrows until his arrival at the Council chamber. The "beam up" (sorry
) had a great deal of bass it in (my subwoofer was cranking) but it was not at all distorted. I then watched the same section on the laserdisc. The dialogue on the LD sounded a bit "thinner" and there was a bit less bass in the "lift off", and again, no distortion.
It is possible that the soundtrack (which is encoded as Dolby Digital 2.0, there is no analog English track) doesn't sound as good downmixed on a ProLogic system. If so, this is something that WB needs to watch on future releases, since the majority of fans probably don't have digital receivers at this point. It may also be that the bass-level overwhelms some speakers, especially on systems that don't have separate subwoofers.
The DVDs certainly support JMS's contention that they mixed the soundtracks with a very wide range, and very agressively, skirting the limits of broadcast television. The battle scenes are especially impressive, and Franke's soundtracks really shine. I can honestly say I've never heard either movie sound better, can hardly wait for the episodes to arrive.
Regards,
Joe
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ah. I was watching my copy on my Creative Encore 6X DVD-ROM drive on my computer (AMD Athlon 500 MHz, 128 MB SDRAM, Sound Blaster Live!). My speakers on this system are two Cyber Acoustics speakers. (I will be picking up my Soundworks DTT3500 digital speaker set this Christmas and setting them up, so I'll give it a runthrough in early January).
------------------
We say atoms are bound by
weak attractors.
Why not admit the truth:
The universe is held together by love.
Michio von Kerr,
Wayist physicist,
CY 9942
GENE RODDENBERRY'S ANDROMEDA
"BANKS OF THE LETHE"
[This message has been edited by Lenonn (edited December 14, 2001).]
I went back and specifically watched the whole Lenon section from his conversation in the City of Sorrows until his arrival at the Council chamber. The "beam up" (sorry
It is possible that the soundtrack (which is encoded as Dolby Digital 2.0, there is no analog English track) doesn't sound as good downmixed on a ProLogic system. If so, this is something that WB needs to watch on future releases, since the majority of fans probably don't have digital receivers at this point. It may also be that the bass-level overwhelms some speakers, especially on systems that don't have separate subwoofers.
The DVDs certainly support JMS's contention that they mixed the soundtracks with a very wide range, and very agressively, skirting the limits of broadcast television. The battle scenes are especially impressive, and Franke's soundtracks really shine. I can honestly say I've never heard either movie sound better, can hardly wait for the episodes to arrive.
Regards,
Joe
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ah. I was watching my copy on my Creative Encore 6X DVD-ROM drive on my computer (AMD Athlon 500 MHz, 128 MB SDRAM, Sound Blaster Live!). My speakers on this system are two Cyber Acoustics speakers. (I will be picking up my Soundworks DTT3500 digital speaker set this Christmas and setting them up, so I'll give it a runthrough in early January).
------------------
We say atoms are bound by
weak attractors.
Why not admit the truth:
The universe is held together by love.
Michio von Kerr,
Wayist physicist,
CY 9942
GENE RODDENBERRY'S ANDROMEDA
"BANKS OF THE LETHE"
[This message has been edited by Lenonn (edited December 14, 2001).]
