B5:TLT - New Logo and CGI

[KoshN]

@KoshN

Yeah, I really buggered up the bit about Netter Digital and LOTR. You might guess from some of the stuff that was written I was getting browned off with the site at that point. It’s already changed and will be uploaded at some point.

You'll probably beat NETFLIX to it. I sent them a correction, and on January 10th they said:

I greatly appreciate the revised information you have provided with regards to "Crusade" and which network aired the series. I have forwarded this matter to a Specialist to have them evaluate the posting and details and amend as needed.

Their page for Crusade says:

The television sci-fi series "Crusade" managed to survive only for 13 episodes during its first -- and last -- season on the WB network.

It's STILL not fixed.

Those errors listed where just taken at random, I could have used others including the ones you mentioned, but I gave myself space restrictions.

Those were some of the ones that bothered me the most.

Don’t get me started on the Drakh mother ship, or Drakh ship scaling in general. When the forward parallel beams of the Excalibur hit one in a call to arms, it looks like it’s smaller than an Omega.

Well, the weapons beam spread (width of individual beams and distance between beams) depends on the distance to the target. That could be part of it. Still why did the Mothership blow up in "Each Night I Dream of Home" ? Did the Vorlon-based beam scare it to death?

Destroyers often look smaller than white stars and… and…. Anyway one of a few reasons why I didn’t get suckered into trying to make up stats for the ships.

The thing is, this should be almost foolproof. The ships are made to a scale length, and the 3D software takes care of the relative sizing.

For me, River Of Souls is where it all started to fall apart as far as quality went. Not so much in cgi but in general terms. Lochley in that outfit, nice, but definitely a sign that things where changing.

I see where you're going with this, after seeing The Legend of the Rangers pilot, I actually have a higher opinion of The River of Souls. I really liked the "love bat" scene with the lawyer.

The Dureena Nafeel (spelling fixed) character in crusade was originally meant to be a member of the Minbari warrior caste. Guess someone decided he wouldn’t look so good in leather.

????? That's the first I heard of that! Still, I'm happy with the Dureena we got.

 

[KoshN]

One of my favourite CG shots of all is the brief chaotic battle shot in Thirdspace, and there are some nice shots in In the Beginning as well.

The best parts of Thirdspace were the CGI battle sequences. I particularly remember a head-to-head between a Thirdspace fighter and a Whitestar. Those Thirdspace fighters were hard to kill. In the Beginning had a great story in addition to great CGI.

GVFX did a good job too, I think. They got the basic look down, made hyperspace look a lot better, and improved things like texturing. The comet looks a lot better than anything that could have been done before then. The blunders they made with the giant fighter and the backwards-flying ships are definitely pretty dumb, but they aren't ones that I've noticed before, so I can just about see how they made it through quality control.

It looks to me that GVFX wasn't given enough guidance, and that Babylonian didn't do much of a final check. I don't call that a good job. GVFX seemed to focus on their new stuff instead of making all CGI in the Legend of the Rangers pilot jibe with the Babylon 5 universe.

You didn't notice the Nials flying aerodynamically (i.e. backwards)?

 

[darth_librarian]

I think a lot of the guys working at Atmosphere are directly inspired by the original B5, it shows in all of their work.

In all honesty, the quality of that one shot we saw (potential sizing issues aside) has made me feel very good about it. Their superb track record in BSG and Atlantis also show they know how to build a quality shot.

 

[RMcD]

The thing is, this should be almost foolproof. The ships are made to a scale length, and the 3D software takes care of the relative sizing.

But it should be possible to override the software.. I played around with some basic rendering software (Imagine 3D) on my Amiga at around that time, and although I can't remember exactly how it handled relative scales, I'm sure the animators may not be averse to moving the scale slider bar of an object to suit the composition of any given scene (space doesn't have a lot of reference points, after all, and it's probably a lot easier for a lazy artist to rescale a large background object to appear approximately the right size, for example, than to push it closer or further away along the appropriate vector) If the object was then saved and then imported into another scene, and the change wasn't picked up, it might explain the scaling being off. Objects might have to be resized anyway if they needed to be inserted into a custom-built 3D environment that wasn't built to any particular scale - and in that case, as computer animators are more artists than engineers, I expect they do it by eye.

 

[Triple F]

@KoshN - RE:Crusade characters.

Oh for fecks sake, (haven’t been to bed yet) I missed the semi-colon in the quote, so I misread it. Great. Anyway, you’ve probably seen this before but this is the quote from jms I was referring to.

Central characters would include one of the nine surviving Zathras
brothers, one of the family Zathras; the command staff of one of the
main explorer vessels The Excalibur; a warrior caste Minbari; the lone
survivor of a world wiped out by the Shadow allies; a lone Technomage
sent back to see if the coast is clear for the others to come back; a
bioigeneticist and a representative from Interplanetary Expeditions,
whose goal may not be the same as the rest.

It's from a dreamwatch interview back in 1997, and is archived on a site listing jms postings for February 5 of that year.

I'm going to my bed now before I say anything else stupid.

 

[KoshN]

But it should be possible to override the software.. I played around with some basic rendering software (Imagine 3D) on my Amiga at around that time, and although I can't remember exactly how it handled relative scales, I'm sure the animators may not be averse to moving the scale slider bar of an object to suit the composition of any given scene (space doesn't have a lot of reference points, after all, and it's probably a lot easier for a lazy artist to rescale a large background object to appear approximately the right size, for example, than to push it closer or further away along the appropriate vector) If the object was then saved and then imported into another scene, and the change wasn't picked up, it might explain the scaling being off. Objects might have to be resized anyway if they needed to be inserted into a custom-built 3D environment that wasn't built to any particular scale - and in that case, as computer animators are more artists than engineers, I expect they do it by eye.

So, by eye, they could move the objects to where they want them, where they are good for the composition. They could still be lazy and do it the right way.

 

[KoshN]

@KoshN - RE:Crusade characters.

Oh for fecks sake, (haven’t been to bed yet) I missed the semi-colon in the quote, so I misread it. Great.

Anyway, you’ve probably seen this before

Actually, this is the first time I've ever seen that quote.

...but this is the quote from jms I was referring to.

Central characters would include one of the nine surviving Zathras
brothers, one of the family Zathras; the command staff of one of the
main explorer vessels The Excalibur; a warrior caste Minbari; the lone
survivor of a world wiped out by the Shadow allies; a lone Technomage
sent back to see if the coast is clear for the others to come back; a
bioigeneticist and a representative from Interplanetary Expeditions,
whose goal may not be the same as the rest.

It's from a dreamwatch interview back in 1997, and is archived on a site listing jms postings for February 5 of that year.

1. one of the nine surviving Zathras brothers, one of the family Zathras - Never happened, even though Tim Choate was still alive in 1998-1999 when Crusade was filmed.

2. the command staff of one of the main explorer vessels The Excalibur - Well, that's sort of right (Gideon and Matheson), except that the Explorer vessel wasn't the Excalibur, their new ship was.

3. a warrior caste Minbari - I never knew that.

4. the lone survivor of a world wiped out by the Shadow allies. - Dureena Nafeel, check.

5. a lone Technomage sent back to see if the coast is clear for the others to come back. - Galen, check, but I never heard it put that way. Knew Galen was supposed to check on and mitigate the spread of shadowtech, because only that could be a real threat to the mages upon their return, but I didn't know that Galen's "all clear" could initiate their return.

6. a bioigeneticist - Dr. Chambers, check.

and

7. a representative from Interplanetary Expeditions, whose goal may not be the same as the rest. - Max Eilerson, check. However, it sounds like they have a little of pre-Shadow-influenced Morden mixed in there.

 

[B5_Obsessed]

Marcus Cole was also briefly listed as a character on Crusade. Pity, that.

 

[RMcD]

I would've liked to see that Minbari Warrior caste character. I really liked Neroon, and having someone like him stomping around the Excalibur would've been fun.

I don't remember any reason being given for Zathras not ending up in there either (although TNT didn't seem too keen on having links or references to events in B5 in Crusade, which is why it wasn't a show about the Rangers in the first place). Maybe Tim Choate was approached and wasn't up for it. Or maybe JMS held those two back and had it in mind to introduce them as full cast members somewhere during the series run (it's funny given the B5 pedigree that Crusade started with just one alien, though Galen is pretty alien).

 

[KoshN]

Marcus Cole was also briefly listed as a character on Crusade. Pity, that.

Yes. Pity that, Marcus couldn't have been in Crusade.


http://www.jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-16999
Date: 9/2/2003 4:07:00 PM

MARCUS COLE, a Ranger established on Babylon 5 during its third and fourth seasons. Energetic, bright, literary, with a poetic quote always at hand when it's needed, and a pike or a PPG rifle when force is needed. Trained equally in martial arts and philosophy. A dashing, romantic figure noted for a cheerfulness that belies something much deeper beneath.

-------------------------------------------------

We had to change Drake to Gideon because of a clearance problem, and obviously the Claudia situation threw a monkey wrench into using the character of Markus, as originally planned.

jms

 

[vacantlook]

I think part of what's in the new Volume 10 of the Babylon 5 scriptbooks is interesting in light of the discussion going on in this thread.

Most startling of all, this volume contains a recently uncovered FULL LENGTH TREATMENT for the B5 sequel series JMS had proposed before Crusade, that was his first choice over what eventually became Crusade, a series that would have starred Sheridan, Delenn, G'Kar, Marcus, one of the Zathrii, and several others in a story set against the backdrop of the Alliance attempting to create interstellar peace.

 

[KoshN]

I think part of what's in the new Volume 10 of the Babylon 5 scriptbooks is interesting in light of the discussion going on in this thread.

Yes, I just ordered Volume 10. No way I'm passing that one up. WTH, I indulged. Picked it up as sort of a 50th birthday present to myself. (Probably dropped down one level of Hell for that.) Should arrive at about the right day.

One of these days, I've got to pick up Volumes 3 thru 9.

 

[darth_librarian]

With regards to the Minbarai crusier size issue, the following chart (very non-canon but still well research & cool) gives a good idea of the size difference between a Shalin & a Primus...

http://mijnkopthee.nl/images/space_comparison_chart_huge.jpeg


Looks to me like Atmosphere are doing ok.

I really love that chart...