Babylon 5 Books

[KoshN]

After numerous attempts I'm still to meet anyone in the physical, real world who's even seen B5.

Well, I've met four people in the real world who've seen B5, all engineers, my buddy Rocco who introduce ME to B5, my buddy Bill who I introduce to B5, somebody who I used to meet out at the Narns & Noble in Cranberry (who I've since lost track of), and a guy at work who was into B5 before me.

I'm having a tough time turning my friends onto it as well, even the Sci-Fi loving ones...

I'm familiar with that. They don't know what they're missing.

 

[GaribaldisHair]

The very fact that the first two books of the trilogy are still so easy to obtain probably goes some way to explain the rarity of the third. If the first two didn't sell as well as Del Rey hoped, leaving lots of unsold copies on bookstore shelves, they would likely have printed fewer copies of the third on the basis that they are extremely unlikely to sell more copies of the final part of a trilogy than the first two.

 

[raw_bean]

Thanks, I didn't realise they were put into omnibus editions...

Can't find any below £40 at the moment, not bothered aout the condition, just as long as I have it and the words on the page (I'd have a photocopied manuscript from Mr. David if it was available), but it's another avenue to explore, thanks again.

Just found one for £175!

http://www.biblio.com/books/92485637.html

From the quoting of prices in ££s, I'm assuming you're a UK resident? I'm from Huddersfield in West Yorkshire, and as another young guy (we're both 23) who only recently got into B5 and found Legions of Fire III hard to get hold of, I sympathise. If you can promise to treat it carefully (I ended up spending £100 quid on one in pretty reasonable condition myself) and post it back within a reasonable time-span I could be persuaded to lend you mine, since I know how desperate you must be to finish the series.

 

[Alluveal]

I'm having a tough time turning my friends onto it as well, even the Sci-Fi loving ones...

I have that problem as well. I know and have met people who love B5, but getting my other sci-fi nerd friends into it is difficult. They seem to have some misconceptions about it. One is that it's just like Star Trek TNG / DS9, etc. Outlandish aliens, make-up, goofy Vulcans, etc. Another problem is that season 1 isn't the easiest to get into. I started watching B5 via the DVD's and I watched a few from season 1 and thought, "ahh, this is just like TNG." I gave up for a while, then went back to it. It took episodes like Deathwalker, Signs and Portents, and others of similar coolness to get me "hooked."

I also think many folks are intimidated by 5 seasons of a show. That's a lot of show to watch. Many folks (even sci-fi fans) have short attention spans. B5 is not for the wham/bam/thank you ma'am audience. It's the thinking man's (or woman's) sci-fi television show. There is no instant gratification. It's the gratification that comes from spending 3 years on an oil painting, instead of slapping together a paint by numbers deal in 2 hours.

 

[Pobman]

I have that problem as well. I know and have met people who love B5, but getting my other sci-fi nerd friends into it is difficult.

I've never actually tried getting any friends into B5, the ones I thihk would appreciate it are all over the place, so it's difficult lending them the DVDs. But once I get married in July, and my then-wife moves in with me permanently, she's going to give B5 a chance. Wish me luck!

 

[Londo Benllari]

After numerous attempts I'm still to meet anyone in the physical, real world who's even seen B5. I'm having a tough time turning my friends onto it as well, even the Sci-Fi loving ones...

Until now! :drool:

 

[Republibot 3.0]

Aside from my fellow Republibot 2.0, and my eldest son, I've never managed to get anyone hooked on B5. I gave up on the mouth-breathing Trekies once I realized that Trekies don't actually like Science Fiction, they just like Trek. (Think about how many die-hard Trekies you know who've never read an SF novel that wasn't a tie-in with "Star" in the title) Ibid Star Wars fans.

My theory is that there's just some qualities to some shows that naturally attract some people and repell others. Trekies are, I think, attracted by the lack of drama, money, religion, art, history, ambiguity, clutter, sex, and fat people in the series. It's a very clean vision of the future that manages to dispence with pretty much everything they find tedious in real life. If that's the case, clearly they're not going to like the tumbledown world of B5, with its gods and passions and strife and emotion and stuff.

By the same coin, I'm somewhat repelled by Trek.

 

[Jan]

I can't agree with this...and I'm not fond of inter-fandom bashing. Heck, I was one of the original Trekkies and look where I am now.

I think it boils down to taste. I've noticed that folks who liked DS9 often are able to enjoy B5 because of the similarity of there being long-running arcs (never minding any other similarities or rivalries). Lots of people simply don't want to make the commitment needed for a show like B5. A lot of people don't like to read long series of books, either. There's nothing wrong or right about that, just a matter of taste.

Jan

 

[Triple F]

This is a strange topic.

I’m Scottish, live in Scotland and more than half the people I know own the full series of Babylon 5 on DVD. The issue of being a Trek fan or whatever else doesn’t come into it. Mind you, neither does the idea of being a sci-fi fan or not. They range (literally) from little old ladies to professional couples and got them because they liked them. They sit (like mine) right beside all the other DVD’s they have, Trek, Farpoint, Firefly, BSG, V and Lexx. etc. As well as ER, The firm, lost, the prisoner and the complete bond series and Schindlers List. Basically part of a collection of what they like.

Word of mouth, or seeing it on the telly, (as opposed to getting people into it) is what seems to spread it about. I guess it’s why all B5 DVD sales are slow but steady.

As for the Trek – B5 fan thing. Yeah, that’s one way to go I suppose. Though I’ve noticed if you hang around on-line fan forums you can get a rather skewed view of things. Remember on-line fans represent 0.001% of the fans (or something like that) of any given thing. Regular exposure to polarised or otherwise extreme (even limited) viewpoints by a few folks (who by definition are not representative) can lead you to create some of your own.

I’ve never understood the need to pidgeon hole. But then, if I remember correclty B5 was always more popular outside the states (at least in some countries like the UK).

 

[KoshN]

Aside from my fellow Republibot 2.0, and my eldest son, I've never managed to get anyone hooked on B5. I gave up on the mouth-breathing Trekies once I realized that Trekies don't actually like Science Fiction, they just like Trek. (Think about how many die-hard Trekies you know who've never read an SF novel that wasn't a tie-in with "Star" in the title) Ibid Star Wars fans.

Well......, I'm hardly a "mouth-breathing Trekie" or a "die-hard Trekie" but the the B5 novels are the first SF novels that I ever read, starting with Dell #5 in October 1999, and then #7, #9, #1 through #4, #6, #8, the Psi Corps trilogy, the Centauri trilogy, the Technomage trilogy, the three B5 novelizations, the Technomage trology again , and now "The Dresden Files" series of novels (currently on #10 of 11 "Small Favor."). Indeed, I didn't read any novels (SF or otherwise) between 1975 and 1999, but this was due to being too busy during college (B.S.Electrical Engineering + working my way through college.) and then working in nuclear power and having to read 10CFR, two nuke plants' Updated Final Safety Analysis Reports (~10 feet thick per plant) and various other technical materials until I could barely get my distance vision working for the drive home. After doing 20 years of that, I wasn't up for doing much "recreational" reading. Indeed, after having read for so many years for facts, I'd completely forgotten how to read a story. I saw the words, knew what they meant, but I'd completely lost the ability to imagine/visualize the story. By reading Dell #5 ( OMG was that bad!), #7 and #9, I grew that ability back.

My theory is that there's just some qualities to some shows that naturally attract some people and repel others.

True. For me, re. DS9, the repulsion was due to the writing and a lot of the characters.

Trekies are, I think, attracted by the lack of drama

No. Re. TOS and TNG, I think the attraction in the old days was the simplicity, and having a story wrapped up in one hour, and the lack of SF competition. For me, re. DS9 and VOY, there was no attraction, and I watched them due to carryover TOS and TNG goodwill. I liked ENT Seasons 3 & 4 more than DS9 and VOY. ENT Seasons 1 & 2 were pretty much a snooze.

...money,

Maybe.

religion,

Then explain DS9 which had religion ad nauseum. B5 also had religion, but the writing and the characters weren't obnoxious.

...art,

Maybe.

...history,

Eh, I don't know . <shrug>

....ambiguity,

Maybe. For some people, everything has to be black or white, all or nothing, simple that way. Not me, though.

....clutter, sex, and fat people in the series. It's a very clean vision of the future that manages to dispence with pretty much everything they find tedious in real life.

Well, DS9 had some of that, but the writing and the characters weren't as good as on B5.

....If that's the case, clearly they're not going to like the tumbledown world of B5, with its gods and passions and strife and emotion and stuff.

Maybe that's why some B5'ers (NOT ME!) also like DS9.

By the same coin, I'm somewhat repelled by Trek.

So am I, post-TNG, but that's also because I've changed, partly because of Babylon 5. Babylon 5 changed me. Today, I have a difficult time going back and enjoying Trek, even TOS and TNG when in a nostalgic mood. Back in grade school and high school (1960s~1970s), speaking solely of fiction books, I only read assigned books (The Brothers Karamazov, The Scarlet Letter, Brave New World, etc.), the Trek adaptions by James Blish, "Dracula" (an old copy from "the stacks" in the library), and some of the Dracula Horror Series novels (e.g. #2 "The Hand of Dracula!" by Robert Lory, ©1973, ISBN-13: 978-0523002002, which I dug up and just noticed that it has a "TRUE" cigarette ad. bound between pages 112 & 113. Trying to get the kids hooked, I guess. ).

I can't agree with this...and I'm not fond of inter-fandom bashing.

It's sooooo subjective, i.e. based upon where you're standing NOW.

Heck, I was one of the original Trekkies....

So was I.

....and look where I am now.

<points at self> <nods in agreement> Now, I can't get enough of long series of books, the more complex the better, the more foreshadowing and connections between threads, the better.

I think it boils down to taste. I've noticed that folks who liked DS9 often are able to enjoy B5 because of the similarity of there being long-running arcs (never minding any other similarities or rivalries).

I absolutely CANNOT, because of the Trek writing and the characters. For me, the difference between DS9 and B5 is night and day. I can't stand DS9, but I love B5 and Crusade. I think I may have developed a severe allergy to Berman & Braga writing.

Lots of people simply don't want to make the commitment needed for a show like B5. A lot of people don't like to read long series of books, either.

Oh I do. For me, it's the only stuff worth reading.

There's nothing wrong or right about that, just a matter of taste.

Jan

It may also be laziness, or being too busy with their everyday life to start a long series of books. However, once you start, you're in. Starting's the hard part. These days I'm busy, but I'm reading books all the time. If I get stuck in traffic, I dig out my latest novel, which I always have with me, and I read. I CAN'T STAND to be somewhere with NOTHING to do. If I have nothing to do, I'm SLEEPING.

 

[Republibot 3.0]

I can't agree with this...and I'm not fond of inter-fandom bashing. Heck, I was one of the original Trekkies and look where I am now.

I think it boils down to taste. I've noticed that folks who liked DS9 often are able to enjoy B5 because of the similarity of there being long-running arcs (never minding any other similarities or rivalries). Lots of people simply don't want to make the commitment needed for a show like B5. A lot of people don't like to read long series of books, either. There's nothing wrong or right about that, just a matter of taste.

Jan

Point taken. Mostly I'm making fun of Trek becuase it's the 500 pound gorilla, and because Trek spent most of the 90s going out of its way to crush all opposiiton to their genre dominance, which I feel is extremely bad form. Also there exists to this day a subgroup of fans who never got the memo that B5 is done, and no longer poses a threat to their culty little show, and still persist in slamming it and ragging on it and view it as a personal affront. It's weird. They're the ones I'm making fun of, primarily.

 

[Republibot 3.0]

This is a strange topic.

I’m Scottish, live in Scotland and more than half the people I know own the full series of Babylon 5 on DVD. The issue of being a Trek fan or whatever else doesn’t come into it. Mind you, neither does the idea of being a sci-fi fan or not. They range (literally) from little old ladies to professional couples and got them because they liked them. They sit (like mine) right beside all the other DVD’s they have, Trek, Farpoint, Firefly, BSG, V and Lexx. etc. As well as ER, The firm, lost, the prisoner and the complete bond series and Schindlers List. Basically part of a collection of what they like.

Word of mouth, or seeing it on the telly, (as opposed to getting people into it) is what seems to spread it about. I guess it’s why all B5 DVD sales are slow but steady.

As for the Trek – B5 fan thing. Yeah, that’s one way to go I suppose. Though I’ve noticed if you hang around on-line fan forums you can get a rather skewed view of things. Remember on-line fans represent 0.001% of the fans (or something like that) of any given thing. Regular exposure to polarised or otherwise extreme (even limited) viewpoints by a few folks (who by definition are not representative) can lead you to create some of your own.

I’ve never understood the need to pidgeon hole. But then, if I remember correclty B5 was always more popular outside the states (at least in some countries like the UK).

I don't really think I am pidgeonholing, though I can certainly see how it'd come across that way. (my bad.) I run the Republibot website ( http://www.republibot.com ) and we make a point of covering pretty much everthing: V, Flash Forward, SGU, the new Galactica, Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles, Dollhouse, Lost, The Venture Brothers, half a dozen other cartoons, SF movies, SF Books, SF Music, Comics, you name it, we cover it, and we do it in depth and detail. We also cover a lot of "Classic" shows like The Prisoner (Which I've repeatedly called "The Best SF Show Ever", and B5, and others), and again, we try really hard to be as objective and view them all on their own merits, and not compare them unfairly to each other.

Thing is, the three of us who started the site made a concious decision to keep Trek coverage and discussions to a minimum. There were a bunch of reasons for this: One, all of us had been Trekies at some point in the past, and we all just sort of grew out of it as gradually grew from being a neat SF show into a more formulaic soap opera with fewer and fewer neat ideas. Second: It really is the brontosaurus on the lawn: It gets plenty of attention already, and we didn't feel there was anything we could add that hadn't been said a zillion times already. Thirdly: It's passe. Fourthly: In my case, I have some animosity towards them for how they ripped off JMS and how they tried to use their considerable resources to *KILL* B5 back in the day.

I totally love SF, and I spend a considerable portion of every day trying to spread that around through my site, and expose people to new stuff, or what have you. I just don't think Trek is all that good, really.

 

[Republibot 3.0]

Aside from my fellow Republibot 2.0, and my eldest son, I've never managed to get anyone hooked on B5. I gave up on the mouth-breathing Trekies once I realized that Trekies don't actually like Science Fiction, they just like Trek. (Think about how many die-hard Trekies you know who've never read an SF novel that wasn't a tie-in with "Star" in the title) Ibid Star Wars fans.

Well......, I'm hardly a "mouth-breathing Trekie" or a "die-hard Trekie" but the the B5 novels are the first SF novels that I ever read, starting with Dell #5 in October 1999, and then #7, #9, #1 through #4, #6, #8, the Psi Corps trilogy, the Centauri trilogy, the Technomage trilogy, the three B5 novelizations, the Technomage trology again , and now "The Dresden Files" series of novels (currently on #10 of 11 "Small Favor."). Indeed, I didn't read any novels (SF or otherwise) between 1975 and 1999, but this was due to being too busy during college (B.S.Electrical Engineering + working my way through college.) and then working in nuclear power and having to read 10CFR, two nuke plants' Updated Final Safety Analysis Reports (~10 feet thick per plant) and various other technical materials until I could barely get my distance vision working for the drive home. After doing 20 years of that, I wasn't up for doing much "recreational" reading. Indeed, after having read for so many years for facts, I'd completely forgotten how to read a story. I saw the words, knew what they meant, but I'd completely lost the ability to imagine/visualize the story. By reading Dell #5 ( OMG was that bad!), #7 and #9, I grew that ability back.


No. Re. TOS and TNG, I think the attraction in the old days was the simplicity, and having a story wrapped up in one hour, and the lack of SF competition. For me, re. DS9 and VOY, there was no attraction, and I watched them due to carryover TOS and TNG goodwill. I liked ENT Seasons 3 & 4 more than DS9 and VOY. ENT Seasons 1 & 2 were pretty much a snooze.



So am I, post-TNG, but that's also because I've changed, partly because of Babylon 5. Babylon 5 changed me. Today, I have a difficult time going back and enjoying Trek, even TOS and TNG when in a nostalgic mood. Back in grade school and high school (1960s~1970s), speaking solely of fiction books, I only read assigned books (The Brothers Karamazov, The Scarlet Letter, Brave New World, etc.), the Trek adaptions by James Blish, "Dracula" (an old copy from "the stacks" in the library), and some of the Dracula Horror Series novels (e.g. #2 "The Hand of Dracula!" by Robert Lory, ©1973, ISBN-13: 978-0523002002, which I dug up and just noticed that it has a "TRUE" cigarette ad. bound between pages 112 & 113. Trying to get the kids hooked, I guess. ).


I absolutely CANNOT, because of the Trek writing and the characters. For me, the difference between DS9 and B5 is night and day. I can't stand DS9, but I love B5 and Crusade. I think I may have developed a severe allergy to Berman & Braga writing.




It may also be laziness, or being too busy with their everyday life to start a long series of books. However, once you start, you're in. Starting's the hard part. These days I'm busy, but I'm reading books all the time. If I get stuck in traffic, I dig out my latest novel, which I always have with me, and I read. I CAN'T STAND to be somewhere with NOTHING to do. If I have nothing to do, I'm SLEEPING.

Wow. This one's gonna' be a hard one to reply to, seeing as I don't know how to use the 'quote' feature here, and KoshN makes that thing dance and sing for him.

Well anyway, KoshN, obviously, you're excused from reading SF Novels prior to the B5 ones. You've got a more-than-valid excuse. <G> There's a certain class of fan out there for who Science Fiction *IS* Star Trek, and they view anything else as a personal attack. There's a similar group of Star Wars fans, too, but they're usually not quite as bad since they also like Football and girls...

I just sort of drifted away from Trek - as did a lot of people - around the 7th season of TNG/"Generations"/1st season of Voyager. My interest had been waning for some time, but it was that knockout 1-2-3 punch of awfulness that finally pushed me over the edge into total ennui. Certainly having B5 there to compare threadbare, frequently stupid, sloppy-assed Trek to didn't help my declining opinion of the show any.

I can't really watch TOS anymore. Partially it's becuase it is just hokey as hell, but I have a fondness for cheeze on occasion, and the kind of connection to those characters that you can only get as a seven year old kid, but the thing is: I've just seen them too damn many times. I've probably seen each episode a hundred times in my life, and there's just no thrill, nor point, in watching 'em. It's no longer a matter of taste, it's just that I've used it up and moved on. It's not so much that I dislike trek for what it is, or even for what it isn't, I just don't watch it for the same reason I don't watch Sesame Street anymore: There's nothing there for me.

I admit I *DO* hate how Trek repeatedly professes to be far far more intelectual and brilliant than it is, and how it somehow manages to get a free pass on this, which no other shows are afforded. That does bug me.

 

[KoshN]

I can't agree with this...and I'm not fond of inter-fandom bashing. Heck, I was one of the original Trekkies and look where I am now.

I think it boils down to taste. I've noticed that folks who liked DS9 often are able to enjoy B5 because of the similarity of there being long-running arcs (never minding any other similarities or rivalries). Lots of people simply don't want to make the commitment needed for a show like B5. A lot of people don't like to read long series of books, either. There's nothing wrong or right about that, just a matter of taste.

Jan

Point taken. Mostly I'm making fun of Trek becuase it's the 500 pound gorilla, and because Trek spent most of the 90s going out of its way to crush all opposiiton to their genre dominance, which I feel is extremely bad form. Also there exists to this day a subgroup of fans who never got the memo that B5 is done, and no longer poses a threat to their culty little show, and still persist in slamming it and ragging on it and view it as a personal affront.

Sounds like they are insecure.

 

[KoshN]

Wow. This one's gonna' be a hard one to reply to, seeing as I don't know how to use the 'quote' feature here, and KoshN makes that thing dance and sing for him.

Well, I have a little more experience posting here. You'll get used to the quoting syntax. Just look at the pattern of how vBulletin does the quotes. I simplified this reply by snipping unneeded material/complexity, taking out the nesting, and the link to previous post number (represented by the ###### after the Quote=name.).

Well anyway, KoshN, obviously, you're excused from reading SF Novels prior to the B5 ones. You've got a more-than-valid excuse. <G> There's a certain class of fan out there for who Science Fiction *IS* Star Trek, and they view anything else as a personal attack.

Sounds like they're insecure, like Trek is all they can handle. If you make little of Trek, you're pulling the rug out from under them.

There's a similar group of Star Wars fans, too, but they're usually not quite as bad since they also like Football and girls...

Well, I haven't been a fan of US football since the 1970s Pittsburgh Steelers, and never have been a fan of that other football (soccer). Always been a fan of girls, though. These days, I'm not big on sports of any kind. In the US, IMHO, there is entirely too much emphasis put on sports. Indeed, during March Madness and the NBA playoffs, I'd like to be in hibernation, so I don't encounter any of it.

I just sort of drifted away from Trek

I did the same thing.

- as did a lot of people - around the 7th season of TNG/"Generations"/1st season of Voyager.

Well, I view the 7th season of TNG/"Generations"/1st season of Voyager as OK~good / ~OK / AWFUL. Remember, the first few seasons of DS9 were in there as well. I couldn't stand them any more than I could Voyager.

I can't really watch TOS anymore. Partially it's becuase it is just hokey as hell, but I have a fondness for cheeze on occasion, and the kind of connection to those characters that you can only get as a seven year old kid, but the thing is: I've just seen them too damn many times. I've probably seen each episode a hundred times in my life, and there's just no thrill, nor point, in watching 'em. It's no longer a matter of taste, it's just that I've used it up and moved on. It's not so much that I dislike trek for what it is, or even for what it isn't, I just don't watch it for the same reason I don't watch Sesame Street anymore: There's nothing there for me.

You'd plumbed the depths of TOS, explored every nook and cranny, not that it was all that complex, anyway. It'd be like watching Stargate SG-1 and Stargate Atlantis (both of which I like.) for forty years. B5 is more rewarding of repeated viewing than say Trek or SG-1/SG-A.

I admit I *DO* hate how Trek repeatedly professes to be far far more intelectual and brilliant than it is,

Trek does? ...or is it that some Trek fans profess that it is?

and how it somehow manages to get a free pass on this, which no other shows are afforded. That does bug me.

You don't like the double standard. It's more a limitation of those fans, in that it's all the SF they can handle, kind of like Kelly Bundy on 'Married with Children" when she had to memorize stuff for a game show, to remember facts for the show, she had to push other stuff that she knew out of her brain, because there was only so much memory capacity available.

 

[Republibot 3.0]

Wow. This one's gonna' be a hard one to reply to, seeing as I don't know how to use the 'quote' feature here, and KoshN makes that thing dance and sing for him.

Well, I have a little more experience posting here. You'll get used to the quoting syntax. Just look at the pattern of how vBulletin does the quotes. I simplified this reply by snipping unneeded material/complexity, taking out the nesting, and the link to previous post number (represented by the ###### after the Quote=name.).

Well anyway, KoshN, obviously, you're excused from reading SF Novels prior to the B5 ones. You've got a more-than-valid excuse. <G> There's a certain class of fan out there for who Science Fiction *IS* Star Trek, and they view anything else as a personal attack.

Sounds like they're insecure, like Trek is all they can handle. If you make little of Trek, you're pulling the rug out from under them.




Well, I haven't been a fan of US football since the 1970s Pittsburgh Steelers, and never have been a fan of that other football (soccer). Always been a fan of girls, though. These days, I'm not big on sports of any kind. In the US, IMHO, there is entirely too much emphasis put on sports. Indeed, during March Madness and the NBA playoffs, I'd like to be in hibernation, so I don't encounter any of it.





I did the same thing.




Well, I view the 7th season of TNG/"Generations"/1st season of Voyager as OK~good / ~OK / AWFUL. Remember, the first few seasons of DS9 were in there as well. I couldn't stand them any more than I could Voyager.




You'd plumbed the depths of TOS, explored every nook and cranny, not that it was all that complex, anyway. It'd be like watching Stargate SG-1 and Stargate Atlantis (both of which I like.) for forty years. B5 is more rewarding of repeated viewing than say Trek or SG-1/SG-A.

I admit I *DO* hate how Trek repeatedly professes to be far far more intelectual and brilliant than it is,

Trek does? ...or is it that some Trek fans profess that it is?

and how it somehow manages to get a free pass on this, which no other shows are afforded. That does bug me.

You don't like the double standard. It's more a limitation of those fans, in that it's all the SF they can handle, kind of like Kelly Bundy on 'Married with Children" when she had to memorize stuff for a game show, to remember facts for the show, she had to push other stuff that she knew out of her brain, because there was only so much memory capacity available.

I tend to see things in religious terms, simply because it's a handy metaphor for me, but the way *some* Trekies react to any threat or mention of other franchises is very, very similar to the way fundamentalists react when you question their beliefs. (And remember, I used to be a fundamentalist).

Yeah, I never cared about DS9, I drifed away from it before the end of the first season.

I once got beat up and chased up a tree while the guy that whomped on me trashed my bike, all for questioning the Steeler's prowess around 1979 or so. Needless to say, I'm not a fan. <G> Of course, he later ended up getting a life sentence for various violent crimes, so he might not have been a typical fan.

Trek has actually professed to be more important and intelectual than other SF shows, and while this is true in some cases ("Space: 1999"), the problem is that basically they're *Still* comparing themselves in the 21st century to shows that were running concurrently with TOS in the 60s. Lots of diehard Trekies seem to think the only other SF show ever made was "Lost in Space," and continue to blame the failings of TMP on "That incompetent boom" Robert Wise, never realizing that he previously helmed two of the best SF movies ever ("The Day The Earth Stood Still" and "The Andromeda Strain"), because they've got so little exposure to *anything* other than Trek. Again: Fundamentalism, or something like it.

Anyway, as a result of this, Trek always manages to put itself out there as the *only* serious SF show, the only one that *means* anything, both the folks that make the show, and the diehard fans. And curiously, because it *was* the only good show for a long time, it tends to get a far better reputation than its actual merits would seem to justify. I remember when TNG was ending, they got like a dozen major SF writers to rattle off glowing endorsements for the show, and Trek in general, despite the fact that the quality had been steadily falling for years, everyone hated the 7th season, and it had totally given over to formula.

So, yeah, I don't like the double standard. <G>

 

[Republibot 3.0]

I can't agree with this...and I'm not fond of inter-fandom bashing. Heck, I was one of the original Trekkies and look where I am now.

I think it boils down to taste. I've noticed that folks who liked DS9 often are able to enjoy B5 because of the similarity of there being long-running arcs (never minding any other similarities or rivalries). Lots of people simply don't want to make the commitment needed for a show like B5. A lot of people don't like to read long series of books, either. There's nothing wrong or right about that, just a matter of taste.

Jan

Point taken. Mostly I'm making fun of Trek becuase it's the 500 pound gorilla, and because Trek spent most of the 90s going out of its way to crush all opposiiton to their genre dominance, which I feel is extremely bad form. Also there exists to this day a subgroup of fans who never got the memo that B5 is done, and no longer poses a threat to their culty little show, and still persist in slamming it and ragging on it and view it as a personal affront.

Sounds like they are insecure.

Yeah. There's a lot of insecurity there. I've got a buddy, obsessive Trekie, but not the cliche: He played football in high school when we were kids, was a fighter pilot for the navy, now he's a civilian engineer, and yet he can't bring himself to watch any SF other than Trek and 'Wars. And 'Wars doesn't really count - he'll say - because it's a fantasy story that he's only watching for the gee-gosh-wow factor. If you even talk about another show, he gets all wonky and starts claiming that B5 is a rip off of DS9 (No matter how many times I've explained the reverse is true in the last decade, he won't remember it), or "Lost isn't science fiction because it takes place on an island, and there's no way people could spend five years on an island and not be found" or "I don't like the clothes on the new Battlestar Galactica, so I'm not going to watch it."

Two or three years ago, he was grousing to me about how there was no SF on TV at all these days - he honestly didn't know there were a dozen SF shows on, he didn't even know at that point that Galactica had made a massive comeback, even though people had been talking about it for two or three years at that point. He is completely, totally out of the loop.

Finally, about a year or so ago, I exploded at him, and said, "Dude, just admit it: You don't like science fiction at all, you just like Trek, period, end of sentence." He hemmed and hawed for a bit, and finally - to my surprise - realized that that was all he really did like. Now we just talk about sports, which is boring but far less frustrating for both of us.

 

[KoshN]

Point taken. Mostly I'm making fun of Trek becuase it's the 500 pound gorilla, and because Trek spent most of the 90s going out of its way to crush all opposiiton to their genre dominance, which I feel is extremely bad form. Also there exists to this day a subgroup of fans who never got the memo that B5 is done, and no longer poses a threat to their culty little show, and still persist in slamming it and ragging on it and view it as a personal affront.

Sounds like they are insecure.

Yeah. There's a lot of insecurity there. I've got a buddy, obsessive Trekie, but not the cliche: He played football in high school when we were kids, was a fighter pilot for the navy, now he's a civilian engineer, and yet he can't bring himself to watch any SF other than Trek and 'Wars.

That's actually kind of sad.

If you even talk about another show, he gets all wonky and starts claiming that B5 is a rip off of DS9 (No matter how many times I've explained the reverse is true in the last decade, he won't remember it),....

It's almost as if he views B5 as a threat to his liking of Trek. It turned out that it was, for me, but I didn't care because I was open to switching to the better show. Personally, I can't imagine anybody watching B5 for any length of time and not liking it, unless they are determined to not like it from the get-go.

[ or "Lost isn't science fiction because it takes place on an island, and there's no way people could spend five years on an island and not be found" or "I don't like the clothes on the new Battlestar Galactica, so I'm not going to watch it."

Two or three years ago, he was grousing to me about how there was no SF on TV at all these days - he honestly didn't know there were a dozen SF shows on, he didn't even know at that point that Galactica had made a massive comeback, even though people had been talking about it for two or three years at that point. He is completely, totally out of the loop.

Finally, about a year or so ago, I exploded at him, and said, "Dude, just admit it: You don't like science fiction at all, you just like Trek, period, end of sentence." He hemmed and hawed for a bit, and finally - to my surprise - realized that that was all he really did like.

How much of anything else SF has he actually seen? How much of B5?

 

[Matthew]

This topic has kind of morphed, but I'll jump in regardless.

I started into science fiction with the 7th season of Trek (I was around 12 or so), and I must say, as that was my first exposure to the franchise, I still like it, even if you all think it's formulaic. ;-)

DS9 was my favorite of all the Treks, but of course, as a youngster, the space battles really were the best part.

Trek was pretty much all I watched, but I did get into Dune (both the books and the movies), always liked Lord of the Rings (not that that's really sci-fi).

Fast forward to 2005, I discovered B5. I probably whipped through the 5 seasons and movies in a matter or a month or two. When I finished with "Sleeping in the Light" I actually cried (for it was moving) and because there was no more B5 to watch. And I remember saying to myself "I hate to even admit this, but I think B5 might just be better than Trek".

It was a revelation, in a sense, and was a very hard pill to swallow. Trek had been with me for so long, and such a big part of my life, to have something overtake it was crazy. Following B5, I got into Firefly, BSG, and a host of other sci-fi shows.

I don't have any hate for Trek, still enjoy it all. Heck, I just recently rewatched all the episodes of Voyager and TNG, and am working on Enterprise (one of the perks of working from home). But, I view them in sort of a different light after seeing other shows.

But the need to hate other series? Stupid and I've never understood it.

Just my two cents.

 

[Republibot 3.0]

Well, I'll be the first person to admit my disdain may be over-reacting, but it stems from two sources: Firstly I liked - and still do - TOS. It was pretty much my introduction to the concept of SF on TV, and you always tend to pattern on your first experience, kind of like a baby duck. Kind of like you and TNG season 7, I guess. Subsequent treks tried to recapture the lightning in a bottle, and occasionally they succeded, but more often (by my standards) they didn't, and eventually I just sort of drifted away.

I'd have been content to just ignore it as another genre show that I didn't really like, much as I ignore "Land of the Giants", but people were so *insistent* on talking about it, obsessing over it, yammering on about it at conventions and online and elsewhere in pretty much exactly the way that people *don't* yammer about "Land of the Giants." Then more people started trying to copy the format, and it ended up that everything was either bad Trek or a bad Trek knockoff (SeaQuest DSV for example). This reached its peak in the 90s.

Around the same time B5 was getting off the ground, and it was wholly unlike Trek. Paramount ripped off JMS when he pitched the B5 concept to them, and of course their knockoff version was DS9. Then they purpously spread rumors that B5 ripped off DS9, which eventually had to be settled in a court case (Paramount settled because it became apparent they were going to loose). Meanwhile, Paramount bagmen were playing hard-and-fast with the local stations that syndicated B5 in those days, they'd threaten not to run TNG reruns or first-run DS9 episodes on stations that also ran B5, they'd encourage stations to run B5 and random weird times (My local station showed it rather inexplicably at 3:15 in the morning for a while) in order to drive down ratings and allow the program directors to say "Well, it's got no ratings, so we're not going to carry it," and so on. They deliberately attempted to sabotage B5 by yanking away actors and other folk (Most notably, Robert Foxworth), and it got so bad that one of the Paramount suits declared that "No one who ever worked on that damn show [B5] will ever work for us!" while Voyager was on the air.

This is all very bad form, and it goes waaaaaaaaay beyond simple competition. They used their resources to attempt to drive B5 into the ground and then sow the ground with salt so nothing would ever grow there again. They saw it (rightly) as their only real competetor. They didn't just want it cancelled, they wanted it dead dead dead dead dead-ity dead.

So I've got some animosity towards Trek/Paramount/Trekies because of that. Even now, a decade later, I can name any number of people I personally know who've never seen B5, who won't watch it because they feel it's "A ripoff' and repeat various lies and misassumptions from back in the day.

It's annoying.

Anyway, sorry for morphing the thread. Let's get back on topic here....uhm...oh, I know: what B5 books would you *like* to see? If they were writing new novels, what aspects of the B5 Universe would you like to see them explore?