Babylon 5 influenced Ds9, is Ron Moore the New JMS of this decade

[vacantlook]

...they all had no other major lasting success at anything else....

I'd say jms has been really successful lately at becoming a screenplay writer. With where they are at this point in their careers, to have Angelina Jolie staring and Clint Eastwood directing a film you wrote sounds successful to me. And then to go from that on to writing the screenplay adaptation for World War Z for Brad Pitt's production company and the screenplay for the upcoming Silver Surfer film -- if I had only one of those to my credit I'd feel successful.

 

[Recoil]

Well, for one, I'd say he can't be considered the new jms because Moore didn't create a show whole cloth. He's played with others' ideas, reconfigured and refined them to fit whatever story he wanted to tell, but still they originated from someone else.

This might be the best point in this thread.

JMS made a new series entirely from scratch and frankly set the standard for what was to be "story arc" television. Moore, with DS9, added decent scripts to a show and a franchise that was already created.

BSG, additionally, was already invented, he just "re-imagined" parts of it and made it his own.

He didn't create anything new or original, he adapted a previous idea into something he wanted to see.

And....again...his story isn't done. Lets not call him this uber-success until we see the story told in its entirety. If he totally F's it up, then this conversation is really pointless, isn't it.

 

[Recoil]

Another point about JMS's criticisms about other long-lasting TV series...thats not his problem, that is network TV's problem. Other shows he has tried to do arent failures due to him, the networks messed previous shows up.

That said, he has recently had some very good success making major motion picture scripts such as "The Changeling" and "World War Z"....something Moore hasn't come close to achieving yet.

I think we are jumping the gun with the mad RDM love. He has made a good, critically and fan acclaimed series THUS FAR. Lets not put the cart before the horse here.

 

[GaribaldisHair]

I think measuring JMS' success is a difficult one.

Jeremiah is a show I love ... i would even go so far as to say that I could have loved it even more than B5 given more time. Unfortunately, it just didn't find a large enough audience in the UK for us to have had the second season (I have only seen it through less then completely legitimate means - the only show I have ever even contemplated doing that for, and only long after it became crystal clear that we weren't going to get it).

I am sure that JMS' announcment that he was leaving at the end of S2 (due to the interference of MGM) played a pretty big role in Showtime's decision not to renew ... but then, Showtime cancelled Odyssey 5 in spite of it rating higher than Jeremiah did, so who knows what they might have done.

I disagree with the notion that his comics work isn't up to snuff ... I hadn't read any comics at all for years until I decided to give Rising Stars a go. Loved that, loved Midnight Nation, loved a lot of his work on Amazing Spider-Man, and loved his take on Hyperion. In terms of commercial/financial success, comics is probably where JMS has been strongest. Love or hate his comics, you can't deny that they sell!

Moving into movies is always difficult for TV writers, but not only has he done that but his first original screenplay (labeit based on a true story) has Jolie starring, Eastwood directing, is entered at Cannes and being widely tipped for Oscars. His script for World War Z has been read and reviewed by several sites on the web, all of whom have given the script and the writing a massive thumbs up. If and when the movie gets made, any problems with it, probably aren't in the writing department on that basis.

I think JMS suffers from not tying himself exclusively to one medium (whether by choice or not). He has written, and written succesfully, in many different ones (TV, movies, radio, journalism, factual (his book on scriptwriting is generally considered a seminal work), theatre, comics, novels etc). Perhaps, he is just a really good writer in all media, rather than being a genius in one or two.

I could certainly live with being as unsuccessful as he is!

As far as RDM is concerned, didn't really get into DS9, didn't really get into Carnivale and have never really got into BSG, so perhaps something in the way he writes just doesn't pull me into the story in the way that JMS' writing does. Others will have completely the opposite viewpoint ... it is after all a totally subjective point of view.

In terms of importance, I think B5 likely had more impact in the long term on SFTV, if only by showing that studios could throw money at SF shows other than Star Trek and make a profit ... something from which the new BSG has clearly benefitted. Would BSG have happened without B5?

 

[Chilli]

Of course, my loyalty belongs to neither of them, for Joss Whedon is my master now.

Whedon's strenghts are JMS' weaknesses .. and vice versa, as I see it.

Whedon writes great dialogue, where JMS can verge into cheesiness way too easily at times. Whedon is a team player, and can organize a writing staff spectacularly, while JMS .. wrote X-thousand episodes of B5 on his own for a reason.

At the same time, JMS manages grand epic arcs of the sort Whedon doesn't even try to touch. Whedon's work don't have the socio-political depth JMS' works have. While I we can spend hours and hours debating if the Minbari suck or not, even 10 years after B5 went after the air .. we won't be debating weather Glory sucked or not 10 years after Buffy went off the air. And, in spite of being good shows in the end, Joss shows are based on completely silly ideas. (Buffy the Vampire Slayer? Western in Space? Just think about it .. ignoring that you know that the shows don't suck.)

If the two ever have a lovechild, it will be too much awesome to take. But I personally don't see the point of claiming that one is "better" than the other. As & Os.

 

[hypatia]

Well, my 2 cents on this subject aren't even worth 2 cents, so take them for what they are worth.

JMS reminds me a bit of the actors who have done stage, tv, and screen work. Work in the USA, UK, and Japan. Who have done written works in book form, and short-stories, and both fiction and non-fiction.

In short, if we focus on just one thing, it can appear that he hasn't had much success up to this point apart from [insert your favorite of the works here]. But when you look at the variety of projects and media he's been able to work easily in, it adds up to a MUCH bigger picture.

JMS has written a lot of episodes of shows many are probably forgetting (like "Murder She wrote and the new(er) Twilight Zone and the like), he's done B5, he's written movie scripts now (and probably before that I don't know about), he's done many comic books including some big ones, I gather... I don't even know all of what he's done that was a write-this-even-if-it-isn't-my-exclusive-project things.

Now that he's selling movie scripts to some BIG people, he's adding even more to his massive collection of works.

I don't know how this measures up to the other guy this thread is comparing (Ron Moore), but I thought I'd toss that in for the hell of it, since I can't sleep.

And may I say it's an interesting thread you've started here again, Gavorkin. You have many interesting thoughts that inspire much discussion (which is what a messageboard is for, after all). I may not always get into the discussion, but they are always interesting reads.

I'm glad you joined the group, and are willing to post such thought-provoking discussion matter.

 

[darth_librarian]

Agreed, Gavorkin is pepping things up nicely. I have little else to add, except what Chilli said.

 

[GKarsEye]

New BSG is so different from old BSG that I consider to be original, not just a "re-imagining."

Also I didn't know he wrote for Carnivale, that's pretty cool.

From the little Buffy I've seen, and all of Firefly/Serenity, Whedon's famed dialogue and characters are very "hip" and clever and while it can be entertaining, the weight and themes involved in B5 just make any comparison moot, IMO, for some of the reasons Chilli went into. But what it all means to me is that B5, at its best, is so much more adult than the rest.

 

[KoshFan]

I don't want to make this a JMS vs. RDM vs. JW thread, unless that's the will of the board, so I'll respond and then hold my peace.

Whedon's strenghts are JMS' weaknesses .. and vice versa, as I see it.

Whedon writes great dialogue, where JMS can verge into cheesiness way too easily at times. Whedon is a team player, and can organize a writing staff spectacularly, while JMS .. wrote X-thousand episodes of B5 on his own for a reason.

At the same time, JMS manages grand epic arcs of the sort Whedon doesn't even try to touch. Whedon's work don't have the socio-political depth JMS' works have. While I we can spend hours and hours debating if the Minbari suck or not, even 10 years after B5 went after the air .. we won't be debating weather Glory sucked or not 10 years after Buffy went off the air. And, in spite of being good shows in the end, Joss shows are based on completely silly ideas. (Buffy the Vampire Slayer? Western in Space? Just think about it .. ignoring that you know that the shows don't suck.)

If the two ever have a lovechild, it will be too much awesome to take. But I personally don't see the point of claiming that one is "better" than the other. As & Os.

Whedon may not have done the grand plot arc, but the character arcs are there in spades. There's a reason I can claim (and get some real scholarly backup for it) that Spike is the best character in fiction -- his character arc is insanely good. And over on the Whedon fansite I frequent we're definitely still discussing the show ten years later (since the first airing). Heck, every time I watch the musical episode I catch something new... something new, something I've never noticed or realized before, after 15 viewings and five or six years!

And while I need JMS's words, I resolved some time ago that I'd teach part of the Buffy episode "Earshot" to every class I ever run, because it's something that every teenager needs to hear. There are people alive today because they saw something Whedon wrote when they were hitting bottom.

I will grant you that Whedon's chief weakness is that his shows can't be summarized.

From the little Buffy I've seen, and all of Firefly/Serenity, Whedon's famed dialogue and characters are very "hip" and clever and while it can be entertaining, the weight and themes involved in B5 just make any comparison moot, IMO, for some of the reasons Chilli went into. But what it all means to me is that B5, at its best, is so much more adult than the rest.

You haven't seen The Body, then... I'll grant you that Whedon's shows seem escapist and juvenile at first, but Buffy/Angel grew increasingly dark and mature as the show went on. Firefly probably would have topped them both if it had been allowed to live.



One last thing: some years ago a couple discovered Buffy. The wife of this couple, Robin, is schizophrenic; she latched onto the show and used it to try and keep herself stable. When the husband wrote about this for a contest, Joss found out about it, contacted them, learned more, and then wrote Robin into the Buffy universe in such a way that contributed to the plot and also deftly made a metaphor of her condition. It was beautiful. When Robin herself read the story, she was going through a bad spell. Her husband simply pointed out that if everything in her head was real, then Buffy was real too. Robin paused to consider this, said, "You're right. Buffy's got my back," and calmed down.

So: Joss Whedon's words can prevail over schizophrenia. Or at least they did once. Top that, Ron Moore!

 

[Chilli]

Whedon may not have done the grand plot arc, but the character arcs are there in spades. There's a reason I can claim (and get some real scholarly backup for it) that Spike is the best character in fiction -- his character arc is insanely good.

That seems pretty nuts to me.

Spike was fun, and I loved him .. but his character arc was that he was a mommy's boy, turned vampire and thus evil, turned horny, turned good. No way does his character have the kind of depth and ambiguity G'Kar, Delenn or Londo have. ( The best Buffyverse characters, from where I see it, is Wesley. )

I didn't mean to say that people will stop discussing Buffy anytime soon. Just that there is way less ambiguity when it comes to characters and plots. I mean .. with B5, you can even debate on if the shadows are truely evil. While the bad guys on Buffy frequently even CALL themselves evil.

Joss Whedon puts an insane amount of detail into his shows (which makes his audiocommentaries very fun), but he doesn't do ambigous nearly as well as JMS does. Yes, characters go from good to bad. But that's just it - on B5, characters are always both. They're constantly doing hideous things, with justifications that the viewer can usually get behind. When Willow starts killing people in season 6, it's because she's been possessed by dark powers.

You haven't seen The Body, then... I'll grant you that Whedon's shows seem escapist and juvenile at first, but Buffy/Angel grew increasingly dark and mature as the show went on. Firefly probably would have topped them both if it had been allowed to live.

IMO, Angel started sucking when it went dark and grim (ugh .. just die, emo-Connor). But it's true that there is WAY more substance to his shows than it seems at first (I mean .. blonde girls vs. vampires!), and The Body is Hush are two of the greatest episodes of anything in the history of everything ever.

 

[KoshFan]

Well. I started to reply, but then I recalled my promise. I will only say that Spike's transitions are far more complex than you make them out to be -- especially since, fascinatingly, the transformation began spontaneously. Neither Whedon nor James Marsters intended it, but when you look back at early Spike, you can see all the elements there. From a writer's standpoint it's amazing to watch the character grow, knowing that it was not originally intended that way.

G'Kar and Londo are of course magnificently complex, but they generally do what they feel is right, or do what they have to do (excluding their pettiness, early on). It's just their perception of what they see as right shifts. Spike has no reason to do anything except what he wants... and what he wants shifts. Where's the difference? They're all three of them fun to watch, and Spike takes the game on sex appeal. So there.

And for additional ambiguity... try Buffy herself, in the later years.


(Dang, I said I wasn't gonna respond...)

 

[Garovorkin]

Joss Whedons's Body of work speak for itself so yes a case could be made for him being included in the same company as JMS and Ron Moore and maybe if his show Dollhouse pans out and I am hoping Fox has enough brains to give this one a chance to find its audience, that might move up into second place behind JMS.

 

[Chilli]

second place

[anal]seriously, what is it with all this ranking?[/anal]

It's like trying to figure out who was the better musician, Beethoven or Hendrix.

 

[Recoil]

I'm not really sure that you can "rank" people like you seem to be trying to do....especially these people...

 

[KoshFan]

Yeah. I happen to like Joss and Spike better than JMS and Londo/G'Kar... but you know what? I'd never give up either show, and anyone with the good taste to like either or both is okay in my book.

 

[vacantlook]

...When Willow starts killing people in season 6, it's because she's been possessed by dark powers.

I've never once seen that arc of Willow's as being her being possessed at all. It's more like she says "fuck off" to her conscience and lets that own personal evil we all have lurking beneath the surface take control. The bad things she did weren't because some outside influence made her but because she chose to do them from within, which is why it takes her so long in the final season to forgive herself. Willow's going bad wasn't like Cordelia's coming back from the higher plane on Angel possessed by Jasmine. The conscience being the cornerstone of Willow's story is completely reflected back in season 3's "The Wish" with alternate reality Vampire Willow -- the evil of vampires is often discussed in relationship to their lack of a conscience throughout the show. That Scary Veiny Willow says the exact same words ("Bored now") that Vampire Willow did is what, in part at least, reveals that Willow's evil deeds in season 6 are driven by her lack of a conscience.

Wee, I kinda went on there, didn't I? :alienblush:

 

[Garovorkin]

The choice good or evil does come down to free will. Willow was in a rage over Tara 's death, but she was enough of her own person to see that what she was doing was wrong so knowing this she chose to kill. A vampire without a soul, is pretty much sociopathic personality, they know the difference between good and evil, they just don't care, but still they have free will, they can still choose. Spike chose (for whatever reasons his love for Buffy perhaps) of his own free will to become good by acquiring back his soul. Free will,

 

[KoshFan]

Yeah, that was kinda my point about Spike. And Willow definitely made choices in her evil arc, although the metaphor there was drugs -- she gets carried away by the power, but she deliberately chose to go down that road. And Buffy herself does some pretty horrible things at much the same time. There's evil in all of us.

Heck, Xander had some gray elements to him very early on, too, when he encouraged Buffy to kill Angel rather than giving Willow time to work on restoring Angel's soul. And Angel himself, while labelled "good" because of said soul, often treads the evil line despite his conscience. Check out "Lie to Me." So many untruths, half-truths, fabrications, and cover-ups -- all the good guys are lying to each other, and the villain of the piece is really just a scared kid struggling to stay alive.

Actually, I'd say that Lie to Me sort of serves as the "Believers" equivalent -- and maybe comes out just a little bit better.



Also, JMS and RDM have yet to write a musical.

 

[GKarsEye]

G'Kar and Londo are of course magnificently complex, but they generally do what they feel is right, or do what they have to do (excluding their pettiness, early on). It's just their perception of what they see as right shifts. Spike has no reason to do anything except what he wants... and what he wants shifts. Where's the difference?

The difference is that one is in a social, religious and political context, and one isn't. Now I'm not going to claim that makes one "better" than the other, but I know which one I like more and has greater resonance with me, personally.

It's certainly no coincidence that my two favorite series of all time are B5 and The Wire- not only do you get to enjoy the characters changing and developing, but you get the greater context that very few shows even bother attempting.

 

[KoshFan]

That's true. "Buffy" speaks to me like it's spoken to a lot of younger folks, but it's not much for peeling back the assumptions of the real world. (The Wire does that much, much better than B5 does, though. In B5 it feels a little heavy-handed sometimes.)

Even still, and with no disrespect to the other actors or characters, Spike still wins on sex appeal.