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Babylon 5 "I've Found Her" is ready for download
- Thread starter Alpha1
- Start date
A_M_Swallow
Regular
Re: Babylon 5 \"I\'ve Found Her\" is ready for downlo
I believe that it was wrong to have used the Babylon 5 characters without permission. When Warner Brothers decides to sue the game makers are going to suffer the consequences of their own actions. Warner Brothers does not have to win, just out spend them - see the Charles Dickens story Bleak House.
One of the ways out of this mess is for the games makers to produce a second game by changing the names of the characters, places, alien races and spaceships. The shape of things like the space station, spaceships and jump gates will also need changing. Anything that has been trademarked definitely needs changing.
I believe that it was wrong to have used the Babylon 5 characters without permission. When Warner Brothers decides to sue the game makers are going to suffer the consequences of their own actions. Warner Brothers does not have to win, just out spend them - see the Charles Dickens story Bleak House.
One of the ways out of this mess is for the games makers to produce a second game by changing the names of the characters, places, alien races and spaceships. The shape of things like the space station, spaceships and jump gates will also need changing. Anything that has been trademarked definitely needs changing.
sleepy_shadow
Regular
Re: Babylon 5 \"I\'ve Found Her\" is ready for downlo
Should I remind you...
...that there is no perceived opposition from Warner towards making this game. Just like there is no perceived opposition to writing fan fiction -- although there is no approval either.
Since nobody is currently making another Babylon 5 game... and this game fully acknowledges the copyright of Warner/JMS, and does not profit from their creations... and since JMS is aware of its existence and has not protested...
...what reason would Warner have for suing anyone *now*, when it A) cannot extract profit from lawsuit B) would damage its reputation in lawsuit C) could have warned against making the game anytime earlier.
As you see... I must disagree with you. They ain't going to sue. They may actually feel good about having their product advertised for free.
Should I remind you...
...that there is no perceived opposition from Warner towards making this game. Just like there is no perceived opposition to writing fan fiction -- although there is no approval either.
Since nobody is currently making another Babylon 5 game... and this game fully acknowledges the copyright of Warner/JMS, and does not profit from their creations... and since JMS is aware of its existence and has not protested...
...what reason would Warner have for suing anyone *now*, when it A) cannot extract profit from lawsuit B) would damage its reputation in lawsuit C) could have warned against making the game anytime earlier.
As you see... I must disagree with you. They ain't going to sue. They may actually feel good about having their product advertised for free.
GeoKuutio
Regular
Re: Babylon 5 \"I\'ve Found Her\" is ready for downlo
You're definetely from USA, aren't you?
Oh yeah I totally forgot to mention, this is actually a game mod. Because it's based on Homeplanet engine, and Homeplanet has been released.. umm.. a long time ago. And if you think that modders of Homeplanet should be sued, then what about Freespace 2 The Babylon Project mod? What about Buda 5 and Buda 5 2.0 for I-war and I-war 2? How about Homeworld 1 B5 mod? How about those who made B5 models for 3d-programs? Should they be sued also? Yep, you are definetely from USA. Hey, I know, sue me! I have drawn a couple of Omega's and Babylon station and my friends have SEEN those and actually TOUCHED the paper on which they are drawn! Oh my, sue me? How hypocrite of you. "WB should sue them", shall me laugh again.
You're definetely from USA, aren't you?
Oh yeah I totally forgot to mention, this is actually a game mod. Because it's based on Homeplanet engine, and Homeplanet has been released.. umm.. a long time ago. And if you think that modders of Homeplanet should be sued, then what about Freespace 2 The Babylon Project mod? What about Buda 5 and Buda 5 2.0 for I-war and I-war 2? How about Homeworld 1 B5 mod? How about those who made B5 models for 3d-programs? Should they be sued also? Yep, you are definetely from USA. Hey, I know, sue me! I have drawn a couple of Omega's and Babylon station and my friends have SEEN those and actually TOUCHED the paper on which they are drawn! Oh my, sue me? How hypocrite of you. "WB should sue them", shall me laugh again.
sleepy_shadow
Regular
Re: Babylon 5 \"I\'ve Found Her\" is ready for downlo
I cannot possibly *<<emphasize>>* more... that foolish opinions are not limited to North America. Yes. Positive. I checked personally... because I am personally a fool, and don't live there.
----
In this case, relatively simple logic will suggest... that nobody is going to sue anyone over IFH... and from my viewpoint, that will suffice.
I cannot possibly *<<emphasize>>* more... that foolish opinions are not limited to North America. Yes. Positive. I checked personally... because I am personally a fool, and don't live there.
----
In this case, relatively simple logic will suggest... that nobody is going to sue anyone over IFH... and from my viewpoint, that will suffice.
Re: Babylon 5 \"I\'ve Found Her\" is ready for downlo
You can't be sued unless you are selling a product with someone elses copyrights included. Since there is no product being sold there is no problem.
Anyhoo, I played all the levels available and did the training session. Much fun. I really liked how hyperspace turned out and the way you have to navigate it. Well done.
You can't be sued unless you are selling a product with someone elses copyrights included. Since there is no product being sold there is no problem.
Anyhoo, I played all the levels available and did the training session. Much fun. I really liked how hyperspace turned out and the way you have to navigate it. Well done.
Joseph DeMartino
Moderator
Re: Babylon 5 \"I\'ve Found Her\" is ready for downlo
WRONG! Simply, totally, and forever, WRONG!.
If you make an unauthorized copy of a protected work that is not covered by some exemption such as archival copying or "fair use" in limited circumstances you have violated the copyright. There is no provision in copyright law that requires that something be sold or that a profit be made.
Think about it: The purpose of copyright law is to protect the ownership rights of the author. If JMS were to sell a novel to Simon & Schuster and you digitized it and posted it on the internet for free, you would be doing more harm to him than if you printed, bound and sold a competing edition, even though you would not be paying him royalties from his books. The free copies would eliminate the need for anyone to buy any retail verion of the book.
If copyright law covered only "profitable" theft, no one could sieze unsold copies of infringing materials, because no profit had been realized them, and a failure to make a profit even on goods sold would be an absolute defense.
Regards,
Joe
WRONG! Simply, totally, and forever, WRONG!.
If you make an unauthorized copy of a protected work that is not covered by some exemption such as archival copying or "fair use" in limited circumstances you have violated the copyright. There is no provision in copyright law that requires that something be sold or that a profit be made.
Think about it: The purpose of copyright law is to protect the ownership rights of the author. If JMS were to sell a novel to Simon & Schuster and you digitized it and posted it on the internet for free, you would be doing more harm to him than if you printed, bound and sold a competing edition, even though you would not be paying him royalties from his books. The free copies would eliminate the need for anyone to buy any retail verion of the book.
If copyright law covered only "profitable" theft, no one could sieze unsold copies of infringing materials, because no profit had been realized them, and a failure to make a profit even on goods sold would be an absolute defense.
Regards,
Joe
sleepy_shadow
Regular
Re: Babylon 5 \"I\'ve Found Her\" is ready for downlo
Spite... does not make people step on their own toes.
As mentioned before, I appreciate Time-Warner-AOL's effort to publish Babylon 5. This appreciation expresses itself in buying license to view their productions. I have some respect for them. Not terribly much... but some quantity does exist.
A hypothetical situation where they might sue someone unreasonably... out of spite... where an early warning was possible (and would have sufficed)... would destroy that respect. That would dent their profit in at least two perfectly foreseeable ways.
Too few people would receive any benefit from exploring that pathway. Perhaps one or two legal firms... and that is pretty much all. Both the copyright owner and the target of the lawsuit would write their numbers in red.
Inaction results in game developers writing no numbers (non-profit) and Warner possibly writing their numbers in black.
Spite... does not make people step on their own toes.
As mentioned before, I appreciate Time-Warner-AOL's effort to publish Babylon 5. This appreciation expresses itself in buying license to view their productions. I have some respect for them. Not terribly much... but some quantity does exist.
A hypothetical situation where they might sue someone unreasonably... out of spite... where an early warning was possible (and would have sufficed)... would destroy that respect. That would dent their profit in at least two perfectly foreseeable ways.
Too few people would receive any benefit from exploring that pathway. Perhaps one or two legal firms... and that is pretty much all. Both the copyright owner and the target of the lawsuit would write their numbers in red.
Inaction results in game developers writing no numbers (non-profit) and Warner possibly writing their numbers in black.
Joseph DeMartino
Moderator
Re: Babylon 5 \"I\'ve Found Her\" is ready for downlo
...what reason would Warner have for suing anyone *now*, when it A) cannot extract profit from lawsuit
Why "now"? Maybe because the game has gone from a vague plan to a real product. You can't shut down a development effort when you can't prove the development effort exists. The only evidence was people talking about a game being worked on. Short of being able to sieze the files, WB had no cause of action. All they could do is issue a cease-and-desist order telling the game makers to stop all work on the project, and threatening legal action if WB found evidence that they were continuing to work on the game. The finished game itself would be the only evidence that they could reasonably expect to get their hands on, so why not wait?
Odd as this may seem, "extracting profit" is neither the sole, nor even the main, reason for corporations to file suit. (Individuals may be another matter.) WB would likely issue a cease-and-desist letter, and follow with a suit only after it was ignored. The reason for doing this would be to stop the infringing action which is reason all by itself for filing a suit.
B) would damage its reputation in lawsuit
You take this as a given. How would it damage its reputation? With whom? Is there any reason they should care? This is not the same as the RIAA suing individuals downloading music, so you cannot expect any reaction to be the same.
C) could have warned against making the game anytime earlier.
Hard as it may be for some folks on this board to believe, it is very unlikely that the Warner Bros. legal department is made up of obessive/compulsive B5 fans who follow every scrap of information about the show. So there is a very good chance that they have never heard of this game until now - when people started heavily promoting it in more places. In fact, they still may not have heard of it. I doubt they read this board. I know for a fact that they do not read the unmoderated discussion board on the official WB site. The only time anyone looks at that is when there is a complaint about a post or a thread - and then it is a webmaster (who may work for a company contracted to run the site, rather than WB itself) who edits/deletes the post, not a WB lawyer.
JMS doesn't read every thread on the moderated newsgroup, so he may not know about all this, either.
Look, it is perfectly possible that WB knows all about the game and is turning a blind eye to it, just as they have to other fan activities that would have Disney or Paramount calling out battalions of lawyers. But it is also the case that they have the right to go after the game makers should they change their minds tomorrow, regardless of what they have done in the past with others.
Regards,
Joe
...what reason would Warner have for suing anyone *now*, when it A) cannot extract profit from lawsuit
Why "now"? Maybe because the game has gone from a vague plan to a real product. You can't shut down a development effort when you can't prove the development effort exists. The only evidence was people talking about a game being worked on. Short of being able to sieze the files, WB had no cause of action. All they could do is issue a cease-and-desist order telling the game makers to stop all work on the project, and threatening legal action if WB found evidence that they were continuing to work on the game. The finished game itself would be the only evidence that they could reasonably expect to get their hands on, so why not wait?
Odd as this may seem, "extracting profit" is neither the sole, nor even the main, reason for corporations to file suit. (Individuals may be another matter.) WB would likely issue a cease-and-desist letter, and follow with a suit only after it was ignored. The reason for doing this would be to stop the infringing action which is reason all by itself for filing a suit.
B) would damage its reputation in lawsuit
You take this as a given. How would it damage its reputation? With whom? Is there any reason they should care? This is not the same as the RIAA suing individuals downloading music, so you cannot expect any reaction to be the same.
C) could have warned against making the game anytime earlier.
Hard as it may be for some folks on this board to believe, it is very unlikely that the Warner Bros. legal department is made up of obessive/compulsive B5 fans who follow every scrap of information about the show. So there is a very good chance that they have never heard of this game until now - when people started heavily promoting it in more places. In fact, they still may not have heard of it. I doubt they read this board. I know for a fact that they do not read the unmoderated discussion board on the official WB site. The only time anyone looks at that is when there is a complaint about a post or a thread - and then it is a webmaster (who may work for a company contracted to run the site, rather than WB itself) who edits/deletes the post, not a WB lawyer.
JMS doesn't read every thread on the moderated newsgroup, so he may not know about all this, either.
Look, it is perfectly possible that WB knows all about the game and is turning a blind eye to it, just as they have to other fan activities that would have Disney or Paramount calling out battalions of lawyers. But it is also the case that they have the right to go after the game makers should they change their minds tomorrow, regardless of what they have done in the past with others.
Regards,
Joe
sleepy_shadow
Regular
Re: Babylon 5 \"I\'ve Found Her\" is ready for downlo
You can't shut down a development effort
when you can't prove the development effort exists.
You can, by writing a polite letter (from a legally justified position).
The only evidence was people talking
about a game being worked on.
You are mistaken here. The previews and website have been available for quite some time. Their makers acknowledged copyright of Warner and JMS -- basically telling "if you object to our activity, tell us to stop".
The finished game itself would be the only evidence
that they could reasonably expect to
get their hands on, so why not wait?
Evidence was available much earlier -- acting earlier have would preserved reputation. Acting now would harm it more... acting even later would harm it even more. Since more effort would be wasted, and more people be likely to suffer economic loss because of a lawsuit.
Odd as this may seem, "extracting profit"
is neither the sole, nor even the main
reason for corporations to file suit.
Disagreed. A coroporation exists for profit. When it perceives its property rights challenged and sues... that is either extracting profit in damages, or securing its ability to extract profit.
How would it damage its reputation? With whom?
With me... and most likely others. If they allowed a project they objected to reach completion... with great effort being invested into it... and then shut it down. Possibly with a measure producing significant cost/inconvenience to the people involved (as opposed to an earlier, or more polite measure).
So there is a very good chance that
they have never heard of this game until now
I would assume they have been contacted -- if not by anyone else then JMS.
JMS doesn't read every thread on the moderated newsgroup,
so he may not know about all this, either.
I have developed the impression that he is quite aware of it. My impression may not be accurate.
Look, it is perfectly possible that WB knows
all about the game and is turning a blind eye to it
Reasonable. They have turned a blind eye to non-commercial B5-themed modifications of earlier games.
But it is also the case that they have the right
to go after the game makers...
Please note: I am not challenging that right. I am perfectly aware that they *have* this right. I am arguing from the viewpoint that they should have no interest in using that right (in the form of a lawsuit).
If they object to IFH, reasonable measures include:
- A notification that they perceive the activity to violate their copyright, and want it stopped
- An offer to enter license negotiations or stop further development and publication
You can't shut down a development effort
when you can't prove the development effort exists.
You can, by writing a polite letter (from a legally justified position).
The only evidence was people talking
about a game being worked on.
You are mistaken here. The previews and website have been available for quite some time. Their makers acknowledged copyright of Warner and JMS -- basically telling "if you object to our activity, tell us to stop".
The finished game itself would be the only evidence
that they could reasonably expect to
get their hands on, so why not wait?
Evidence was available much earlier -- acting earlier have would preserved reputation. Acting now would harm it more... acting even later would harm it even more. Since more effort would be wasted, and more people be likely to suffer economic loss because of a lawsuit.
Odd as this may seem, "extracting profit"
is neither the sole, nor even the main
reason for corporations to file suit.
Disagreed. A coroporation exists for profit. When it perceives its property rights challenged and sues... that is either extracting profit in damages, or securing its ability to extract profit.
How would it damage its reputation? With whom?
With me... and most likely others. If they allowed a project they objected to reach completion... with great effort being invested into it... and then shut it down. Possibly with a measure producing significant cost/inconvenience to the people involved (as opposed to an earlier, or more polite measure).
So there is a very good chance that
they have never heard of this game until now
I would assume they have been contacted -- if not by anyone else then JMS.
JMS doesn't read every thread on the moderated newsgroup,
so he may not know about all this, either.
I have developed the impression that he is quite aware of it. My impression may not be accurate.
Look, it is perfectly possible that WB knows
all about the game and is turning a blind eye to it
Reasonable. They have turned a blind eye to non-commercial B5-themed modifications of earlier games.
But it is also the case that they have the right
to go after the game makers...
Please note: I am not challenging that right. I am perfectly aware that they *have* this right. I am arguing from the viewpoint that they should have no interest in using that right (in the form of a lawsuit).
If they object to IFH, reasonable measures include:
- A notification that they perceive the activity to violate their copyright, and want it stopped
- An offer to enter license negotiations or stop further development and publication
Re: Babylon 5 \"I\'ve Found Her\" is ready for downlo
You can be sued for JUST ABOUT ANYTHING. Anyone can sue anyone in the USA, even if a general release has been signed! Winning is another matter, but often, the goal isn't to win but to settle or outlast. Trust me.
-Tim
-Tim
You can be sued for JUST ABOUT ANYTHING. Anyone can sue anyone in the USA, even if a general release has been signed! Winning is another matter, but often, the goal isn't to win but to settle or outlast. Trust me.
-Tim
-Tim
sleepy_shadow
Regular
Re: Babylon 5 \"I\'ve Found Her\" is ready for downlo
I trust you in that matter... but nobody (at least not me) is doubting the *possibility* of a lawsuit.
Merely its practicality.
I trust you in that matter... but nobody (at least not me) is doubting the *possibility* of a lawsuit.
Merely its practicality.
GeoKuutio
Regular
Re: Babylon 5 \"I\'ve Found Her\" is ready for downlo
The reason why I think that A_M_Swallow is from North America was simply because of this "sue all" -thingie. You know, I haven't EVER seen a citizen from germany for example to say something like "it's copyrighted blaa blaa blaa so they must stop or else blaa blaa sue sue sue". In USA, you can sue everyone for very stupid reasons, it's how their system works.
Anyway, so.. to A_M_Swallow. Maybe you should sue www.firstones.com? C'mon, they're hosting many mod-sites etc.
The reason why I think that A_M_Swallow is from North America was simply because of this "sue all" -thingie. You know, I haven't EVER seen a citizen from germany for example to say something like "it's copyrighted blaa blaa blaa so they must stop or else blaa blaa sue sue sue". In USA, you can sue everyone for very stupid reasons, it's how their system works.
Anyway, so.. to A_M_Swallow. Maybe you should sue www.firstones.com? C'mon, they're hosting many mod-sites etc.
A_M_Swallow
Regular
Re: Babylon 5 \"I\'ve Found Her\" is ready for downlo
I am from Britain. However, Warner Brothers is from the USA.
The reason why I think that A_M_Swallow is from North America was simply because of this "sue all" -thingie. You know, I haven't EVER seen a citizen from germany for example to say something like "it's copyrighted blaa blaa blaa so they must stop or else blaa blaa sue sue sue". In USA, you can sue everyone for very stupid reasons, it's how their system works.
Anyway, so.. to A_M_Swallow. Maybe you should sue www.firstones.com? C'mon, they're hosting many mod-sites etc.
I am from Britain. However, Warner Brothers is from the USA.
Re: Babylon 5 \"I\'ve Found Her\" is ready for downlo
You could make the same case for this website. In fact, you could make even MORE of a case, since the images from the website were taken directly from the show or promotional materials.
All of the artwork in the game was created from scratch.
Consider it like fan-fiction.
As for JMS, he is aware of the game, as is Warner Brothers (at least in some capacity).
You could make the same case for this website. In fact, you could make even MORE of a case, since the images from the website were taken directly from the show or promotional materials.
All of the artwork in the game was created from scratch.
Consider it like fan-fiction.
As for JMS, he is aware of the game, as is Warner Brothers (at least in some capacity).
