Battlestar Galactica The Greatest Scif show? or Babylon 5 [Spoilers for BSG S4]

[darth_librarian]

Re: Battlestar Galactica The Greatest Scif show? or Babylon 5

I love BSG. It really rocks, and I am a massive B5 fan really.

However, Admiral Beckham clearly does not, and judging by his posts on another forum, he is one of the small but vocal set of 'GINO' haters that I sometimes encounter online, who examine and decry every aspect of the new show in exquisite painful detail. I'm guessing this is because you are a fan of the old BSG and hate this re-imagining with a passion ? Used to hang out at cylon.org before it folded ?

My evidence, based on 30 seconds Googleing for the forum you mentioned, lies here:

http://www.b5tech.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=3

You are welcome to your opinions of course, but vocalising them in such a way may not be especially helpful to the original poster's debate. In fact, written descriptions of each scene with childish names substituted for all of the characters is a bit creepy and stalkerish really. We've done without this kind of behaviour here for a while now, and whilst you are entitled to your opinions, hijacking a debate like this does not really help your cause.

By the way, say hi to Spider, we used to talk rubbish all the time on the old skiffy boards!

 

[Garovorkin]

Re: Battlestar Galactica The Greatest Scif show? or Babylon 5

Okay some more issues with Galactica, the rebellion and the early wars, the Cylons are still in machine form, the war is fought with nukes and what do nukes do to electronics? Fry them, so why could not the Colonials develop an EMP (Electro Magnetic Pulse)weapon to disable them? Second how could they fight a computer based enemy by going retro technical with their computer technoloigy, no network linked computers?, a war with the Cylons would not and could not be be sustained. If the Colonials are as computer savy as they were, how is they could not devise anti viral software? We have software like Trend and Norton and others, this makes no sense either and why did not the Colonial use Anti viral attacks on the Cylons? Given the nature of the enemy this to me would be sound strategy. In 40 years why didn't the Colonials develop better more effective side arms for their troops? Last of all, when the Cylons rebelled ,where did they acquire their ships and ordinance? Did they have factories on the Colonies and ships yards overhead supplying them while they were rebelling? that kind of makes no sense. No science fiction show is perfect and I still like the show like B5 BSG is a thinking persons show. This said it seems to me that these are some issues that Ron More and David Eick should have taken into consideration. JMS by comparison really thought mapped things really well when he created B5.

 

[Alluveal]

Re: Battlestar Galactica The Greatest Scif show? or Babylon 5

I love Galactica, but B5 is it for me. I will forever compare all shows to it. But B5 isn't on anymore. There aren't new weekly episodes. It feels good to get excited about a weekly show again.

But, as well done as I think Galactica is, it's not B5. Nothing has touched my heart and spirit like B5 has. And I wonder if anything ever will.

 

[Alluveal]

Re: Battlestar Galactica The Greatest Scif show? or Babylon 5

The only people that like the new and "improved" "G.I.N.O." are those that have rarely or never seen quality film making or storytelling. Trying to compare B5 to GINO is just assinine.

Not sure why this was necessary? Either you're admitting you're an elitist snob that has a monopoly on what "good filmmaking is" or you're just dissing people who enjoy the re-imagined show for spite?

I don't get it. I can't stand a lot of movies, television, music. I loathe anime. I mean, I really hate it. I hate it with the intensity of a thousand suns. But, I'd never tell someone who did like it, "God, you're an idiot and you apparently don't know what good story-telling is." Why?

It's rude. And I'm calling you on it. I doubt you'll care either way and you'll probably fall back and rely on some snotty remark about how the lesser beings of the board (and the internet) must simply lack the brain cells to understand the darkness and complexity of your world.

Either way. That was an asshole remark.

 

[darth_librarian]

Re: Battlestar Galactica The Greatest Scif show? or Babylon 5

The only people that like the new and "improved" "G.I.N.O." are those that have rarely or never seen quality film making or storytelling. Trying to compare B5 to GINO is just assinine.

Either way. That was an asshole remark.

Well called. Its insulted me directly and everyone in this thread and on this board really. This board is no place for this kind of strange anger. Go and throw darts at a picture of RDM or something.

I see (and read) quality storytelling all the time. And your 'GINO' in my opinion, has it in spades. ( and because at the end of the day, this board and other like it are just about other's opinions and respecting them, something you seem to have issues with), .

 

[thinker2222]

Re: Battlestar Galactica The Greatest Scif show? or Babylon 5

One would think that if someone hated the show, they'd find something better to do with their time than to keep watching it. It takes a profound level of hate for the show, the kind of hate that consumes a person, to take the time to write a "review" that long.

I started reviewing GINO starting with episode "33" as a lark. Then I was asked to post a regular review to the series when I was given moderator duties.

I gave MY WORD.

That is why I do the reviews on what is possibly one of the worst shows to disgrace the genre it has been my displeasure to watch.

It started well, but jumped the shark after "The Captain's Hand" and went into the brown goo file permanently after "Crossroads".

What qualifies me as an "expert"? Every episode I reviewed fairly and accurately based on what I compared to my own experience in the real world, plus what I know about good editing, character development, and plotting-that is story telling.

People are not as stupid as David Eick and Ron Moore conceive them to be. Neither are machines. Nor are stories this boring or uninteresting.

That they constantly have to reset the plotline and use cheap gimmicks constantly to edit character in what they call their story arc should be your big clue that they don't know what they are doing.

Agree with this or disagree; I really don't care. But I owe you a brief explanation as to why I write the reviews.

I was asked.

T.

 

[vacantlook]

Re: Battlestar Galactica The Greatest Scif show? or Babylon 5

...Every episode I reviewed fairly....

The "review" that was posted here was nothing but a verbal diarrhea of juvenile name calling, rendering it not, by any definition of the word, fair.

 

[GaribaldisHair]

Re: Battlestar Galactica The Greatest Scif show? or Babylon 5

Erm ... thinker222, are you also Admiral Beckham? If so, why the change of handle?

 

[thinker2222]

Re: Battlestar Galactica The Greatest Scif show? or Babylon 5

Erm ... thinker222, are you also Admiral Beckham? If so, why the change of handle?

The answer is no. I wrote those reviews. Admiral Beckham posted one without my prior knowledge. If you bothered to look at B5Tech.com you would find me quickly enough. Just look in the Galactica Forum.

To that other writer who suggests that the review is not justified.......because of "juvenile name calling" Look up the term "sobriquet". Its a term of transpositional label substitution often descriptive to shorthand a trait or characteristic in the form of a nickname-very often insulting or praising in the characteristic described in that nickname.

"Fatso Goring" or "Tenacious Tanaka" for example, if you are up on your history. Fruitloop for Laura Roslin is a descriptor for a crazy politician. President Schoolteacher is another descriptor.

The names have a specific well thought out purpose. Table Lamp, which is a fixture that sometimes works to throw light on a subject, but most often just sits there gathering dust and usually has a burned out light bulb-therefore is useless when you need it to throw such light: describes exactly the type character that Jamie Bambir portrays as well as his rather amateurish acting style.

You haven't read the fifty five plus reviews, written so far: so you don't know the shorthand I use or the background. Sorry I don't intend to post sixty thousand words so that you can catch up. If you want to know why? read the Reviews. Otherwise this explanation will have to suffice.

So much for that.


T.

 

[vacantlook]

Re: Battlestar Galactica The Greatest Scif show? or Babylon 5

And again, I say the level of hatred for the show required to take the time to decide on such "well thought out" and "purpose[ful]" name substitutions the likes of which occur in the posted "review" is demonstrative of a hatred that consumes. I have no desire whatsoever to read "reviews" that come with the taunting condemnation and hatred born out of pubescent level ridicule; I am no longer in high school.

 

[Garovorkin]

Re: Battlestar Galactica The Greatest Scif show? or Babylon 5

Thinker 2222 While I agree that BSG is not without flaws as I have outlined above. You seem to believe that the show has no merit and that is not the case. The show has amassed quite a bit of critical acclaim from not the critics who as a rule tend to look down on science fiction as a genre. The show has admirers which include Joss Whedon and you can't honestly tells that his vote of confidence doesn't mean anything. The show has garnered all kinds of kudos from the science fiction community and on top of this its won a Peabody Award which they don't tend to give to crappy shows. Thinker no disrespect is intended here and you are of course entitled to your opinion, but I think that you are in the minority here.

 

[thinker2222]

Re: Battlestar Galactica The Greatest Scif show? or Babylon 5

I don't like Josh Whedon's work in general or "Firefly" specifically. It is a stretched "westerm" cliche. That is my critical opinion. I also don't appeal to authority on this. I tell you WHY specifically I don't like something. I see it, I can explain it clearly, why do I need to appeal to authority to justify it?

Note that in the review posted here I stated that I looked for EJO's sense of directorial point of view or whether Espenson or not had any story structure present; or if there was any character development. None existed, so that is what I told you.

I told you plainly what was technically awful in production values. I told you what failed in internal story logic. I write plain and to the point. Mechanically the episode was a mess.

Why should I overlook CGI and costuming gaffes or a script so full of obvious character action stupidity that a six year old could write much better plot?

T.

 

[thinker2222]

Re: Battlestar Galactica The Greatest Scif show? or Babylon 5

And again, I say the level of hatred for the show required to take the time to decide on such "well thought out" and "purpose[ful]" name substitutions the likes of which occur in the posted "review" is demonstrative of a hatred that consumes. I have no desire whatsoever to read "reviews" that come with the taunting condemnation and hatred born out of pubescent level ridicule; I am no longer in high school.

Then you will learn nothing as to how to write a review. There is a black humor present if you could see it. I know at about what level of vicious satire I aim. That would put you just shag shy of college junior in outlook and capability.

T.

 

[vacantlook]

Re: Battlestar Galactica The Greatest Scif show? or Babylon 5

Your obnoxiousness in your "review" presents no reason to try to ferret out any potential analysis, even if there is any validity to any of your complaints. You claim to write plainly, but your "review" demonstrates otherwise. And you say the episode was a mess; your "review" was no better.

 

[Ranger1]

Re: Battlestar Galactica The Greatest Scif show? or Babylon 5

first off Bamber is an outstanding actor, you clearly haven't seen his previous works, also while the particular episode isn't a personal favourite, Olmos is an excellent director, i cite his work on Miami Vice. Admittedly Moore has his problems, for example he doesn't really kill central characters. that can however be forgiven, he has delivered in BSG an excellent human drama.

 

[thinker2222]

Re: Battlestar Galactica The Greatest Scif show? or Babylon 5

Your obnoxiousness in your "review" presents no reason to try to ferret out any potential analysis, even if there is any validity to any of your complaints. You claim to write plainly, but your "review" demonstrates otherwise. And you say the episode was a mess; your "review" was no better.

My obnoxiousness is YOUR read. Don''t care. I wanted to tell you why I thought it was a terrible episode. I did. The review was structured exactly the way I wanted. Synopsis followed by analysis. The episode was not structured . You did read the synopsis right? ACCURATE wasn't it? Did you see the structure in the scene order or in the action lines as I wrote them out for you in sequence? Do you even know what an action line is?

Well, the synopsis was as disorganized as the episode, because I remained faithful to the scene sequence and the action lines as I typed it out. That was the point.

The analysis coda was a little more direct and biting because I break out acting, editing, direction, CGI, artwork, etc, and assess those parts which is something most reviewers don't do.

I also comment on story logic. You'll find that I'm a stickler for story logic. If its unbelievable character action or a gimmick, I'll tell you.

As you can see, I just reviewed my review.

That is how you do a workup.

I wonder if you've bothered to really look at a GINO episode and asked your first basic question, "did I suspend my disbelief and care about these characters?" This review I gave you my definite answer.

Its called analysis.

T.

 

[Cell]

Re: Battlestar Galactica The Greatest Scif show? or Babylon 5

My obnoxiousness is YOUR read. Don''t care. I wanted to tell you why I thought it was a terrible episode. I did. The review was structured exactly the way I wanted. Synopsis followed by analysis. The episode was not structured . You did read the synopsis right? ACCURATE wasn't it? Did you see the structure in the scene order or in the action lines as I wrote them out for you in sequence? Do you even know what an action line is?

Well, the synopsis was as disorganized as the episode, because I remained faithful to the scene sequence and the action lines as I typed it out. That was the point.

The analysis coda was a little more direct and biting because I break out acting, editing, direction, CGI, artwork, etc, and assess those parts which is something most reviewers don't do.

I also comment on story logic. You'll find that I'm a stickler for story logic. If its unbelievable character action or a gimmick, I'll tell you.

As you can see, I just reviewed my review.

That is how you do a workup.

I wonder if you've bothered to really look at a GINO episode and asked your first basic question, "did I suspend my disbelief and care about these characters?" This review I gave you my definite answer.

Its called analysis.

T.

Reviews are the same as TV episodes, open to critical analysis. It is clear that in may people eyes your reviews don't equal the goodness, or even the decent, persay. It also appears that your continued defensiveness means you can't handle the criticism. The true sign of an artistic person, or a great artist, or a good reviewer is someone that is open to criticism and doesn't give token lines like, "My obnoxiousness is YOUR read." in the place of actual analysis of their own work. I'm sure you believe that your following words were analysis, but they weren't, anyone could see that. They were not so well veiled attempts at deferring any criticism your review might be getting back onto the episode in question.

 

[thinker2222]

Re: Battlestar Galactica The Greatest Scif show? or Babylon 5

first off Bamber is an outstanding actor, you clearly haven't seen his previous works, also while the particular episode isn't a personal favourite, Olmos is an excellent director, i cite his work on Miami Vice. Admittedly Moore has his problems, for example he doesn't really kill central characters. that can however be forgiven, he has delivered in BSG an excellent human drama.

I saw Bamber first in "Band of Brothers". He was TERRIBLE as LT Foley in conveying emotion, colorless in presence, and somewhat superfluous as a cast member. Since then he's become something of a scene hog and tends to have an almost effeminate acting style on GINO. Do I believe him as the character Lee Adama? .

No. I regard him as a petulant "childe" trying to play a part that is too big for him to carry off..

I don't care about EJO's directorial chops in other episodes or other work-which can be quite good.. That is NOT this episode. I assessed him for THIS episode. He bungled it. He probably screwed it up in post production, not that the way the camera shots he set up to begin with in this episode were all that great in holding a visual line of action [a continuing GINO technical weakness where most of the directors don't even seem to know how to compose a proper two shot much less shoot a story sequence] to set up a visual story line of action. If you want a good episode layout for example with these technical details tended to with care, try "You Can't Go Home Again" Sergio Gezzan does an outstanding job with a weak story about a downed pilot to tell a strong visual story about a hero's struggle to survive and get back, and yet can't get back to her former place of "home", that redeems that episode. Katee Sackoff first impressed me that episode as a good actress. I actually still care about the Herpes Monster, because I consider her to be one "true character" of the two characters; (the other is Tricia Helfer as Six) who acts as a believavle human in a twisted sort of way in this brown steaming pile of GINO cliche-riddled goo, peopled by pantomimes who go through the motions.

T.

 

[thinker2222]

Re: Battlestar Galactica The Greatest Scif show? or Babylon 5

What defensiveness? I am comfortable with criticism that is reasonable and that has some analysis behind it. What I've read so far is mostly emotional reaction. I don't respect emotional reaction. Its not relevant to the discussion. Appeals to reputation and appeals to authority are not relevant.

Come at me with something based on an argument of MERIT or FACT, not opinion.

I can tell you that there should have been a recognizable theme to tie the episode together, the running from responsibility, and that Tyrol, MEATWAD , should have been story center to anchor the idea, if not in the script, then in the visual action line, but that Olmos blew it in editing.

Look for MEATWAD to shave his head in the next episode "The Road Less Traveled".

CHARACTER GIMMICK.

That is what you OBVIOUSLY should be looking to see in this GINO garbage. Bad writing and bad visual cuing instead of STORY, CHARACTER, and DIRECTION to lead you by the nose further along into a clumsy story line.

As of now, none of you has risen to what I call peer level argument, to even require more from me, than what I am in now, which is my TEACH mode..

How"s that for defensive? As in you trying to defend what you cannot. Satisfied? Or do you have another question?

T.

 

[Cell]

Re: Battlestar Galactica The Greatest Scif show? or Babylon 5

What defensiveness? I am comfortable with criticism that is reasonable and that has some analysis behind it. What I've read so far is mostly emotional reaction. I don't respect emotional reaction. Its not relevant to the discussion. Appeals to reputation and appeals to authority are not relevant.

Come at me with something based on an argument of MERIT or FACT, not opinion.

I can tell you that there should have been a recognizable theme to tie the episode together, the running from responsibility, and that Tyrol, MEATWAD , should have been story center to anchor the idea, if not in the script, then in the visual action line, but that Olmos blew it in editing.

Look for MEATWAD to shave his head in the next episode "The Ties that Bind".

CHARACTER GIMMICK.

That is what you OBVIOUSLY should be looking to see in this GINO garbage. Bad writing and bad visual cuing instead of STORY, CHARACTER, and DIRECTION to lead you by the nose further along into a clumsy story line.

As of now, none of you has risen to what I call peer level argument, to even require more from me, than what I am in now, which is my TEACH mode..

How"s that for defensive? As in you trying to defend what you cannot. Satisfied? Or do you have another question?

T.

Keep em coming, it's very funny to watch you continue to try and spin and avoid the criticism that has been leveled against you. I never tire of people with your attitude, "I'll throw as much shit as I can against the wall, and some of it will stick. But, even if it doesn't they won't actually notice my inept attempts at ignoring the criticism leveled against me because I'll drown them in nonsense and hyperbolic elitism." Of course you haven't reached peer level here yet, none of us have managed to degenerate to your level, and I don't see it happening any time soon. Although you teaching myself and others about how to write a piss-poor review whilst covering your obvious deficiencies as a writer with hyperbole, juvenile humor, generalizations, and the like is always good for a laugh.