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Better Villian: Cartagia or Morden?

Ya know what was great about both of those dudes? Their careless, non-chalant attitude towards murder and horror.

Cartagia treating G'Kar's reluctance to scream like we used to treat a Rubick's cube: an annoying little puzzle. His description of Centauri Prime being destroyed. "Let it burn. Let it all burn."

Morden had one of the best lines in the series.
Londo: "Why don't we just destroy the entire Narn homeworld?"
Morden: "One thing at a time, ambassador."

Goddamn, that's so freakin' awesome! What a bad-ass.

At least Bester sort of pretended to care about people dieing. These guys don't even try. "10,000, 100,000, what's the difference?"

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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."
 
Surprisingly, Cartaiga.
He just died in a cooler way.

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"Ink on a page." -Refa describing the moral depths of a treaty.
 
Cartagia was, to say the least, a nut. He however was as evil as they come. He just never used it the right way

Morden was more evil tho. He was just cold and ruthless to get his means.

So I go for Morden.

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Oh, School and Mundanes Suck.

PK's UBB Board
Psi-Corps EZBoard
 
I think Morden is more evil. Cartagia did things on a whim and if they pleased him. Morden did things because he was motivated by a greater power, the power of the Shadows to spread chaos throughout the galaxy.

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Lorien: Who are you?
RW: The salad man.
Lorien: Why are you here?
RW: To be the salad ambassador.
Lorien: What do you want?
RW: Everyone to know the joys of salad.
Lorien: Do you have anything worth living for?
RW: Yes, my salad bars.
 
Cartagia was the better villian! He was completely nuts! Remember that terrific scene with the heads on the table!

Morden was just a student of evil!!
 
Since the thread name asks for the "better" villain, I'll have to go for Cartagia - he was a lot more fun to hate. What a bastard!! Insanity is not an excuse... he was also thoroughly evil.

As for who was "more evil" - hard to say. However, I would say that Morden scared me more. Cartagia was willing to destroy his own world while Morden seemed perfectly happy to create chaos and terror in the whole galaxy.

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"Narns, Humans, Centauri... we all do what we do for the same reason: because it seems like a good idea at the time." - G'Kar, Mind War
Kribu's Lounge | kribu@ranger.b5lr.com
 
I would say Morden.

1. He knew exactly what he was doing.
2. He acted on a much larger scale.
3. He acted for self-interest.
4. He may have believed in what he was doing.

---

Morden had no excuse. He could have chosen differently. Had his life been different, had he learnt some lessons earlier and avoided some losses later... he might have chosen differently.

I don't know what happened to Morden (and how much of it was due to his own choices) but I believe that his decision on Z'ha'dum was only a result of many earlier mistakes.

Cartagia however... was somehow different. While Morden did not care what his actions meant to others, Cartagia didn't quite understand it. He destroyed without goal or motivation. Which of course is not an exucuse.

The harm he caused was proportional to the power he held. Having less power, he would have caused less destruction - but destruction nevertheless. How he went mad, one can only guess.

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Morden was scarier. It is very scary how a perfectly sane person can choose to cause enormous destruction and justify it.

[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited November 23, 2001).]
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> How he went mad, one can only guess. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> "The royal bloodline isn't what it used to be.
Too much intermarrying I suppose.
I always say: 'When you reduce a family tree to a family bush, you just can't hide as much beneath it.'"

Minister to Londo in Babylon 5:"Epiphanies" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

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The 3 most common elements in the Universe:
Hydrogen, Greed, Stupidity!
 
I agree with Kribu, Cartagia was a waaay better villain! I mean he was so cool, I don't think anyone can really measure up after him. Morden was more evil, but... he wasn't as.... villainy as Cartagia
laugh.gif


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I am Yu Lau! I am nobody's bitch! You are mine!
 
i'd be more afraid of Cartagia. Morden you could understand. He had a set goal and objective and would do anything to reach them. Don't get me wrong those objectives where horrible but it's nice to know what someone is thinking from time to time. Cartagia on the other hand would summon you and hmm "why did he summon me? is he going to kill me? but i didn't do anything?" You just don't know. That uncertainty would drive people mad. Cartagia was much scarier than morden cause you never new where you stood with him.

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I don't know if this is considered a spoiler or not, but it has to do with both Cartagia and Morden, and their fates in B5:


<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black> Isn't it interesting that Londo (or at least the Londo/Vir combo together) managed to destroy them BOTH? Hmmm</font></td></tr></table>

laugh.gif


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"I do not believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense,
reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."-- Galileo
 
Cartagia was not completely unpredictable. An expert at influencing people like Londo could manipulate him and nudge him to the right path (one which would allow to remove him) although with difficulty.

Getting rid of Morden was more controversial. Morden and the Shadows could be predicted but not manipulated. Londo acted on the assumption that he had nothing to lose. Had he not acted, Centauri Prime might have been destroyed -- and no revenge could be worse than that. The Shadows had considered seemingly all options, but not that of an opponent both desperate and wielding great power. They were overconfident.

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"We are the universe, trying to figure itself out.
Unfortunately we as software lack any coherent documentation."
-- Delenn
 
<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black>
-Oh yes, your ships are very impressive in the air, or in space, but right now, they are on the ground.
-What are you gonna do Mollari? Blow up the island?</font></td></tr></table>


Definitely one of my favourite quotes in the entire series.

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I am Yu Lau! I am nobody's bitch! You are mine!
 
Catagia. Because he had direct life and death power over his citizens. And his choices were destructive of his own people. Obviously, he was based on the Roman Emporer Caligula, one of the most evil characters from history. Madness was not excuse. It only magnified his basic evil nature.

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Reelect President Clarke, or else!
 
On a personal level Cartagia is more dangerous simply because of his unpredictability. Londo did manipulate him for a time but he soon tired of Londo and if it had not been for Vir, Londo could very well have ended up a head on a table.

Trying to save the species-wise, Morden. 'He was so quite and polite your honor.'

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"Crying isn't gonna get your dog back. Unless your tears smell like dog food. So you can sit here eating can after can of dog food until your tears smell like dog food or you can go out there and find your dog."-Homer in The Canine Mutiny
 
I think Cartagia was way better than Morden.
Cartagia was the kind of person who'd have you killed for looking at him the wrong way.
Mordan was more predictable and understandable.

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What are those Earth creatures called? Feathers, long bill, webbed feet .. go 'quack'?"

"Cats."

"Cats. I'm being nibbled to death by cats."
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lennier:
I would say Morden.

1. He knew exactly what he was doing.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Cartagia, at least by the end, was aware that Centauri Prime would be destroyed. He says as much in either Falling or Summoning.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>2. He acted on a much larger scale.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Granted.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>3. He acted for self-interest.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And Cartagia didn't? Wishing your own apothesis isn't self-interest?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>4. He may have believed in what he was doing.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Spoilers for Invoking Darkness




<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black>When Galen talks to him, he makes it obvious that he's working with the shadows because he promised that he would, not because he believes them. He's perfectly willing to betray them as well, if he thinks it'll help him.</font></td></tr></table>

---

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Morden had no excuse. He could have chosen differently. Had his life been different, had he learnt some lessons earlier and avoided some losses later... he might have chosen differently.

I don't know what happened to Morden (and how much of it was due to his own choices) but I believe that his decision on Z'ha'dum was only a result of many earlier mistakes.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

More spoilers for Invoking Darkness.

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black>Only if you consider your family being killed in a terrorist attack a mistake. Morden was initially controlled through his love, the same way the Shadows tried to gain control over Galen and Sheridan. After that, they implanted devices in his brain allowing them to manipulate him easily.</font></td></tr></table>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Cartagia however... was somehow different. While Morden did not care what his actions meant to others, Cartagia didn't quite understand it. He destroyed without goal or motivation. Which of course is not an exucuse.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

His motivation was very clearly self-glorification. He was just attempting an insane form of self-glorification, but that doesn't change his motives.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>The harm he caused was proportional to the power he held. Having less power, he would have caused less destruction - but destruction nevertheless. How he went mad, one can only guess.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes.

As for who was the better villian, I'd have to vote Morden because he was much more effective at using the power he had.

-g

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[This message has been edited by Galen2005 (edited December 04, 2001).]
 
Insanity is a relatively commen trait amongst rulers, call it a "blue blood" defect. Handed down genetically. God only knows we've had enough in our reality. Cartagia is a sterotypical villian who talks to dead people. Greed motivating his villany.
Morden on the other had walks around and is completely evil, with no redeeming values whatsoever. Even his smile is constatly mocking anybody who looks at it. You can almost hear it saying "I know the truth" which is basically what we the viewers know to be true. Morden gets my vote his evil is limitless and his cool, calculating manner helps to add to this!
laugh.gif


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Well I don't know about insanity being a common trait but there are a couple of factors that would make monarchs more likely to exhibit this trait. When you spend your whole life treated as if you're better than other people it's hardly a surprise when you come to believe this. Isolation from the real world also distorts your view, causing them confusion when their told people can't simply 'eat cake' instead of rotten bread or asked to solve other commoner problems. Also repeated marriages between cousins to form alliances and such does not help.

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"Crying isn't gonna get your dog back. Unless your tears smell like dog food. So you can sit here eating can after can of dog food until your tears smell like dog food or you can go out there and find your dog."-Homer in The Canine Mutiny
 
There is a more prosaic cause for insanity and many other defects among "royalty".

Inbreeding.

The "Royalty only marries Royalty" tradition sooner or later results in a single royal family where Everyone is a cousin.
Often by more than one connection.
It happened in Rome.
It happened in the contemporary European royal families.
That's why the King of England at the time of the American Revolution was actually a German.
He was a cousin.
And the most "direct" in line to inherit.
And, by report, he didn't even Speak English.


That's what the Centauri minister meant when he said: "When you reduce the family tree to a bush, you just can't hide as much under it" to Londo.
shocked.gif
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crazy.gif
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tongue.gif
wink.gif


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The 3 most common elements in the Universe:
Hydrogen, Greed, Stupidity!

[This message has been edited by bakana (edited December 08, 2001).]
 
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