Beyond the Rim

[Marcelo]

One of the things that are often discussed in B5 message boards is the question of what it means to go "beyond the rim"?
Some think that it just means leaving this galaxy, others say that it is something more "transcendental". In the 4th season episode "Into the Fire", when Sheridan tells the Shadows and Vorlons to "get the hell out of our galaxy", Lorien says: "I will go with you beyond the Rim... and we will see again all those who went ahead of us, all those who we have missed for so long." And then the Vorlons ask, seemingly afraid: "Then we will not be alone?", to what Lorien answers: "No. Never alone."
This intrigues me. Why would the Vorlons and Shadows be afraid of going (alone) beyond the rim? If it just means to go beyond the borders of our galaxy, with their level of technology they should have travelled back and forth millions of times. So does "go beyond the rim" means something like going to another dimension, or another spiritual plane? Any thoughts?

 

[Jade Jaguar]

Well, I think "going beyond the rim" is simply leaving our galaxy, but that it still has other implications. It is going into the VAST unknown. Intergalactic space is presumably as empty and lonely as it is possible to get. Even at faster than light speeds it would take eons to reach another galaxy, and presumably there are no jump gates to get there. That sort of time frame for existing in nothingness could well be daunting, even to immortal First Ones.

 

[vacantlook]

jms says:

The rim, and the "veil" beyond which the bulk of the First Ones
passed, is the Galactic rim....

jms also says:

It's the Rim of the galaxy, and once you come out of hyperspace
past the galactic rim, all your points of reference are gone, and
getting back is tough, if not impossible...and you can't just "keep
going" in a straight line in hyperspace, as it's not a one-to-one
corrolation to normal space.

And putting it definitively, jms says:

> Seriously though, what is meant by "The Rim"?

The rim of the galaxy.

 

[maneth]

That should settle it, straight from the horse's mouth.

Although some First Ones have used Centauri jumpgates when it suited them (the Vorlon ship in Deathwalker, for example), I would imagine that any First One ship would be capable of making its own jumpgate. But finding any sensible points of reference would be hard to say the least. Has anyone ever returned?

 

[Jade Jaguar]

I would have to disagree with JMS on one point. If one exits hyperspace beyond the rim, one will still have points of reference. Our galaxy would be recognizable, as would others, more distant. But, yes, humans couldn't navigate galaxy to galaxy in hyperspace, but Shadows and Vorlons don't seem to need beacons to navigate in hyperspace, so perhaps they could.

 

[GaribaldisHair]

... but Shadows and Vorlons don't seem to need beacons to navigate in hyperspace, so perhaps they could.

Perhaps they don't need beacons simply because they have been around so long and know and understand that galaxy so well that they no longer need the reference points used by the younger races. All that knowledge and experience is useless once they get beyond the galactic rim and into unknown territory.

 

[Cell]

I would have to disagree with JMS on one point. If one exits hyperspace beyond the rim, one will still have points of reference. Our galaxy would be recognizable, as would others, more distant. But, yes, humans couldn't navigate galaxy to galaxy in hyperspace, but Shadows and Vorlons don't seem to need beacons to navigate in hyperspace, so perhaps they could.

I agree, as well as disagree with JMS about the finality of the term "beyond the rim." As that term is used in B5 I think it is very clear that it has a double meaning. On the one hand when one travels beyond the rim they are l;leaving our galaxy to explore another, however as it is also used in the B5 universe it also means to go beyond life and into the next existence. No clear demarcation is given on this in regards to the First Ones, so it is very possible that they can't die at all, so their version of beyond the rim is simply leaving our galaxy for what lies in another. For others it means going into whatever it is that constitutes life after death in the B5 universe.

 

[KoshFan]

On the flip side, we also have a statement from JMS that I recall, but can't locate at the moment:

Q: What's beyond the Rim?
A: A big ol' McDonalds.

 

[Jan]

I think you mean this one?

From: J. Michael Straczynski <71016.1644@compuserve.com>
Subject: First Ones Motives
To: CIS
Date: 2/17/1997 1:43:00 PM

{original post unavailable}

The main motive for going beyond the rim...there's a heck of a
big Taco Bell out there....

jms

 

[Jade Jaguar]

Perhaps they don't need beacons simply because they have been around so long and know and understand that galaxy so well that they no longer need the reference points used by the younger races. All that knowledge and experience is useless once they get beyond the galactic rim and into unknown territory.

I agree that's why they don't need beacons. But, I doubt that "all that knowledge and experience are useless" once they go beyond the rim. But, it probably wouldn't be dispositive, in such an unknown situation.

Is there a "rim" in hyperspace? What does "beyond the rim" mean, in terms of hyperspace? We don't know. Perhaps they didn't either, and thus some of their fear.

 

[KoshFan]

I think you mean this one?

That would be it.

 

[GaribaldisHair]

I think as much as anything "Beyond The Rim" has taken on a double meaning since the show aired because JMS uses it as a handy (and highly appropriate) metaphor for dealing with those characters and actors who have subsequently passed away.

As a line of dialogue, the TLT line about G'Kar and Franklin exploring beyond the rim is meant to mean literally that they were exploring beyond the galactic rim in the context of the show, since we know that G'Kar is around to strangle Londo some years later, and Franklin is still around in 2282 at the decommissioning of the station. However, it is also used as a tribute to the actors and a metaphor for their (rather than their characters') deaths.

I do wonder if, for that reason, we (JMS included) sometimes read too much into its use in the show itself.

 

[maneth]

Yes, I think you might be right GH. Another point is that for us who don't have the option of FTL travel, beyond the rim would mean something other than what it means in the B5 universe.

 

[Cell]

I think as much as anything "Beyond The Rim" has taken on a double meaning since the show aired because JMS uses it as a handy (and highly appropriate) metaphor for dealing with those characters and actors who have subsequently passed away.

As a line of dialogue, the TLT line about G'Kar and Franklin exploring beyond the rim is meant to mean literally that they were exploring beyond the galactic rim in the context of the show, since we know that G'Kar is around to strangle Londo some years later, and Franklin is still around in 2282 at the decommissioning of the station. However, it is also used as a tribute to the actors and a metaphor for their (rather than their characters') deaths.

I do wonder if, for that reason, we (JMS included) sometimes read too much into its use in the show itself.

I think that JMS was even implying the duality of "Beyond The Rim" while the show was still running. Lorien's phrasing to the Vorlons and Shadows of what they will see should they go beyond the rim is the best example of this. Talking about those that have gone before us and all those that we have missed is a very ambiguous statement. It can mean simply those that have willingly traveled beyond and haven't returned, but it can also mean those that have died and have moved beyond the known universe. I think it's very clear that beyond the rim has a duality to it based on this scene alone.

 

[hypatia]

I'd tend to agree. Also Sherridan going beyond the rim just in time before his death seems to suggest some kind of possible connection to that which happens after death. But, interestingly enough, not for everyone. Just for the advanced races and perhaps a few select specimens of mere mortals.

I rather liked how JMS stayed purposely ambiguous about the whole "life after death" thing. Even in the episodes on Soul Hunters there is room for interpretation.

But then again, in many things JMS gave room for interpretation. That is, indeed, one of the many appealing aspects of the series for me.

 

[Marcelo]

I think that JMS was even implying the duality of "Beyond The Rim" while the show was still running. Lorien's phrasing to the Vorlons and Shadows of what they will see should they go beyond the rim is the best example of this. Talking about those that have gone before us and all those that we have missed is a very ambiguous statement. It can mean simply those that have willingly traveled beyond and haven't returned, but it can also mean those that have died and have moved beyond the known universe. I think it's very clear that beyond the rim has a duality to it based on this scene alone.

I agree with Cell about this duality. The only reason I can see for the Shadows and Vorlons to be afraid of going beyond the rim is if that means leaving this plane of existence for something totally unknown to them, not just leaving the galaxy. But then again, consider that Lorien came back from beyond the rim in "Sleeping in Light", and said that he and the others were waiting there for Sheridan... so it is possible to come and go from beyond the rim, at least to Lorien. I think there is no definitive answer for this question in the context of the show, despite what JMS said.

 

[Alluveal]

Just beyond the rim of the galaxy, eh? I think that's pretty simple, but I also believe that there is much more to "the edge of the galaxy" than stellar geography. I can't help but think in Jungian terms here. We face the Shadow (within) and either destroy it or embrace it, move on and evolve as a person (the process of individuation,) then we seek out new challenges and new archetype adventures.

I think going beyond the rim is yet another step in self-realization (speaking metaphorically.) In terms of the show, they've all gone on to meet new challenges and to go to the next level of sentient evolution. They're done with this "school" (this galaxy) and it's time to graduate to bigger things.

To be afraid of that is perfectly normal. The Vorlons and those who joined them beyond the rim will probably start out as fledglings again, taught by masters even greater than themselves. It's a scary proposition and implies a death of some kind: either spiritual or physical.

 

[fisheggs]

I'm curious what they would do about food and fuel.

 

[hypatia]

Maybe that's part of what makes going beyond the rim so scary.

Or could the Vorlons have some way of using the dark matter and "missing matter" in our universe? If I am getting some of what I've read throughout the years correctly, there is far more missing mass in our universe than mass we can account for. Perhaps it's at least in part there in the supposed void between galaxies, and could be utilized. If nothing else, converted to something that has mass, so they could slingshot around in place of using fuel?

As far as what they'd need in terms of supplies to sustain themselves, what do Vorlons and Shadows and First Ones need in the first place? I"ve heard a few conversations on that way back when the show had ended not-so-long ago. Do energy beings need any kind of sustenance?