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Big B5 update from jms!!!
- Thread starter Alpha1
- Start date
I agree. In fact when you think about it a movie about the Telepath War makes a good deal of business sense.
Being a movie Warner doesn't need to worry about distribution and the recent DVD sales have probably convinced them that a modestly budgeted movie would do alright.
Also the TW storyline allows them to bring back any characters whose actor is willing to come back. It is B5, not a spin off. This will make it much easier to market.
Finally if the movie does really well it will almost certainly spark interest in new B5 projects. Maybe not Cursade or LOTR but it might mean more B5 related material on the small screen in the future.
Any way I look at it, it seems that a theatrical movie is Warners best bet to bring some (more) life into the franchise. The fans are clearly still out there, they just need to up it's profile.
Joseph DeMartino
Moderator
ibwolf, I agree with everything you've said, not surprsing since I've been saying much the same thing here and elsewhere for several years. 
Let me add to the excellent points you've already raised:
The Teep War is also a self-contained story with a beginning, middle and end, which does not rely on an extensive knowledge of the series just to make sense of it. From the standpoint of exposition you don't need to spend any more time setting up telepaths, the Psi Corps and the social situation than the first X-Men movie needed to establish mutants. The rest of the background is just a given. There are different alien species that function like nation states on Earth. There is an EA that functions like a somewhat more rationally designed U.N. There were a couple of wars that need to be mentioned in the dialogue, just so everybody knows where the various players stand, then its off to the races.
A two hour or slightly longer movie could easily contain such a story. (Comedies tend to clock in at around 90 minutes. Dramas and adventure flicks are usually around two hours and can go a little past that without cutting into the number of daily showings a theater can schedule. Films of three hours or more are rare precisely because of the lack of turn-over at theaters. The theater operators, who make almost nothing on ticket sales and almost everything on concession stand sales, can't afford to book too many 3 hour plus films.)
The studio knows that the most successful film adaptations from any medium are the ones that appeal to people who never read the book, the comic book, saw the TV show. If you only get the hard core fans of the original, you're not going to make any money. A Teep War film, like The Wrath of Khan or The Voyage Home would have very broad appeal because it is an easy to understand "underdog fights back" with lots of really cool SF elements and some space battles. There is almost no other B5 universe story that has similar qualities. Valen and the Shadow War of 1,000 years ago? Don't think so. That's just backstory for B5, has no Human viewpoint character and in the end the war isn't even decisive - we know the war that really settles the issue is still to come. This is something that the hard core fans would find fascinating, but not something that would appeal to the general audience. Note that Peter Jackson made The Lord of the Rings for the big screen, not The Silmarillion or The Unfinished Tales. There's a reason for that.
JMS knows how uniquely suited the Teep War story is for the big screen, which is why he's been writing around it in all the subsequent B5 projects. He also knows how important it is to have the original cast and characters, as ibwolf points out. Not only would the studio want that to appease the fans, but JMS himself has always said that he thought of a theatrical film as a way to reward the cast and crew for all their hard work on the series - since the money is so much better on features. That's another thing that rules out many stories that fans like to speculate on as possibilities, at least as far as theatrical plots are concerned. Warner Bros. would be in big trouble if it dropped $50 to $80 million making a "Origins of the Shadow War" film about the Vorlons, the Shadows and Lorien. There's no way they'd sell enough DVDs to break even on something like that.
It is hard to think of any other story that could take place in the immediate aftermath of "Objects at Rest" and could therefore involve the whole cast. Besides, the Teep War has been set up to answer questions that JMS deliberately raised in S5, Crusade and the novels and stories - all written at a time when Warner Bros. was very interested in the idea of a theatrical film. (Enough to pay JMS to write an outline for the project back in 1998, an outline which he has since confirmed involved the Teep War and the Vorlons.) Of course JMS could fool us; Heaven knows he's done it before. But if the upcoming project is a theatrical film, I'd be very surprised if it weren' based on the Teep War.
Regards,
Joe
Let me add to the excellent points you've already raised:The Teep War is also a self-contained story with a beginning, middle and end, which does not rely on an extensive knowledge of the series just to make sense of it. From the standpoint of exposition you don't need to spend any more time setting up telepaths, the Psi Corps and the social situation than the first X-Men movie needed to establish mutants. The rest of the background is just a given. There are different alien species that function like nation states on Earth. There is an EA that functions like a somewhat more rationally designed U.N. There were a couple of wars that need to be mentioned in the dialogue, just so everybody knows where the various players stand, then its off to the races.
A two hour or slightly longer movie could easily contain such a story. (Comedies tend to clock in at around 90 minutes. Dramas and adventure flicks are usually around two hours and can go a little past that without cutting into the number of daily showings a theater can schedule. Films of three hours or more are rare precisely because of the lack of turn-over at theaters. The theater operators, who make almost nothing on ticket sales and almost everything on concession stand sales, can't afford to book too many 3 hour plus films.)
The studio knows that the most successful film adaptations from any medium are the ones that appeal to people who never read the book, the comic book, saw the TV show. If you only get the hard core fans of the original, you're not going to make any money. A Teep War film, like The Wrath of Khan or The Voyage Home would have very broad appeal because it is an easy to understand "underdog fights back" with lots of really cool SF elements and some space battles. There is almost no other B5 universe story that has similar qualities. Valen and the Shadow War of 1,000 years ago? Don't think so. That's just backstory for B5, has no Human viewpoint character and in the end the war isn't even decisive - we know the war that really settles the issue is still to come. This is something that the hard core fans would find fascinating, but not something that would appeal to the general audience. Note that Peter Jackson made The Lord of the Rings for the big screen, not The Silmarillion or The Unfinished Tales. There's a reason for that.
JMS knows how uniquely suited the Teep War story is for the big screen, which is why he's been writing around it in all the subsequent B5 projects. He also knows how important it is to have the original cast and characters, as ibwolf points out. Not only would the studio want that to appease the fans, but JMS himself has always said that he thought of a theatrical film as a way to reward the cast and crew for all their hard work on the series - since the money is so much better on features. That's another thing that rules out many stories that fans like to speculate on as possibilities, at least as far as theatrical plots are concerned. Warner Bros. would be in big trouble if it dropped $50 to $80 million making a "Origins of the Shadow War" film about the Vorlons, the Shadows and Lorien. There's no way they'd sell enough DVDs to break even on something like that.
It is hard to think of any other story that could take place in the immediate aftermath of "Objects at Rest" and could therefore involve the whole cast. Besides, the Teep War has been set up to answer questions that JMS deliberately raised in S5, Crusade and the novels and stories - all written at a time when Warner Bros. was very interested in the idea of a theatrical film. (Enough to pay JMS to write an outline for the project back in 1998, an outline which he has since confirmed involved the Teep War and the Vorlons.) Of course JMS could fool us; Heaven knows he's done it before. But if the upcoming project is a theatrical film, I'd be very surprised if it weren' based on the Teep War.
Regards,
Joe
D
**DONOTDELETE**
Guest
I have my doubts on there being a B5 feature film. B5 has been out of circulation for quite some time, especially to the general public (non fans). In my opinion the window of opportunity for a feature film would have been 1999-2000, but my opinion would be different had Crusade gone its full term. The last Star Trek movie didnt fair very well either, so Im sure that might throw up a red flag against a feature movie.
If they do make a feature film, I almost hope they dont advertise it as Babylon 5. I think it would have more widespread appeal to the general public if its not associated with some ten year old SciFi show they probably didnt watch. As much as we fans are proud of B5, a feature film would need to be seen by more than just us B5 fans if its to be successful. We might need to be sneaky in order to get non fans to give a movie a chance.
My guess is that we'll be looking at a small mini-series like scifi's Dune, Children of Dune, Battlestar Galactica, etc, based on the Telepath Wars. I also think a mini series based off the technomage trilogy would make for a great story.
If they do make a feature film, I almost hope they dont advertise it as Babylon 5. I think it would have more widespread appeal to the general public if its not associated with some ten year old SciFi show they probably didnt watch. As much as we fans are proud of B5, a feature film would need to be seen by more than just us B5 fans if its to be successful. We might need to be sneaky in order to get non fans to give a movie a chance.
My guess is that we'll be looking at a small mini-series like scifi's Dune, Children of Dune, Battlestar Galactica, etc, based on the Telepath Wars. I also think a mini series based off the technomage trilogy would make for a great story.
Chris Springob
Regular
Are you sure about that Joe? I seem to recall him stating it the other way (100/1000, not 1000/1,000,000). Anyone have the exact quote?
phoenixrising
Regular
Though I hate to bring up "Star Trek", the first film was released, if I remember correctly, in 1979, ten years after the series went off the air. And that was in the days befor "Trek" became a "brand name".
Personally, I would like to see anything B5, as long as it has the same high quality of writing and acting as the series did.
Joseph DeMartino
Moderator
Which is, in fact, when Warner Bros. originally commissioned JMS to write an outline for a feature film, which they thought could be released around Crusade season 2.
So the problem with the last couple of Star Trek films is that TNG has been out of production for too long? I thought it was because the lat couple of Trek films sucked. I seriously doubt that Warner Bros. is basing its B5 decisions on what Paramount is doing with Trek. (Especially since "totally destroying it on the big and small screen" seems to be what they are doing.) Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter have been doing very well, thank you, and they're both Warner dristributed franchises. Big scale, epic fantasy is doing just fine thank you. SF is just a specialized subset of fantasy with slightly stricter rules, and the story of the last of the Babylon stations is nothing if not epic.
So what if B5 has been out of production for a few years? It is probably known to more people now, thanks to daily reruns and the DVDs, than ever saw it during its first run on PTEN. (Shades of the original Trek, which didn't become a real success until it was running five days a week at 6 PM.) Now is arguably a much better time than 1999/2000 for getting a movie in the works. Four years of reruns and a year of highly successful DVDs have given the show a higher profile than it had when it was in first run syndication.
There may be reasons for Warner Bros. not to do a feature film but "too long since the series" (did that stop Charlie's Angels or The Adams Family?) and "but the last Trek didn't do well" are not two of them.
If WB does a film soon it can use the original cast. But they could wait 10 or 15 years and do it with a whole new cast. I'd rather they did it sooner than later, myself.
Regards,
Joe
Joseph DeMartino
Moderator
I don't have it handy, but think about it: The last Shadow War was 1,000 years ago. The Minbari were already a space-faring people, and so were a few others. Just to write the series and work out the background for the ambassadors JMS would have to know the history of the period from the 1260s to 2258 is pretty good detail. He also projected things forward far enough to have established the Great Burn in the 2700s and the rebuilding which follows. On the larger scale he knew that the Vorlons were meddling with the other races, fighting the Thirdspace aliens and having their first conflicts with the Shadows a million years ago, and that Humans and Minbari would evolve into Vorlon-like beings a million years hence. Based on what he showed us in the series I'd have to say the the parameters were 1,000,000/1,000 not 1,000/100.
Regards,
Joe
Chris Springob
Regular
Not to gloat, but I just found the exact quote on Lurker (second bullet under "About the series in general").
As a side note, was anyone else ever slightly bothered by the number of times they use big round numbers for time in B5 (1000 years since the last Shadow War, 500 years until the Great Burn, 20 years of life for Sheridan)? Of course, the characters are presumably rounding in some cases, and the exact number of years may not be quite 1000, but no one *ever* expresses it with more exact numbers in the show. Obviously, this is a pretty minor quibble in the grand scheme of things, but what are boards like this for if not to complain about minor issues?
As a side note, was anyone else ever slightly bothered by the number of times they use big round numbers for time in B5 (1000 years since the last Shadow War, 500 years until the Great Burn, 20 years of life for Sheridan)? Of course, the characters are presumably rounding in some cases, and the exact number of years may not be quite 1000, but no one *ever* expresses it with more exact numbers in the show. Obviously, this is a pretty minor quibble in the grand scheme of things, but what are boards like this for if not to complain about minor issues?
Actually, JMS said both. JMSnews.com seems to be offline at the moment, so I can't quote other posts.
JMS said he'd outlined the B5 universe in detail for 1000 years in either direction, and in broad strokes for 1.000.000 years in either direction.
The 'exact quote' that Chris Springob posted, addes that the story was outlined in specific for 100 years in either direction.
Both Chris and JoeDM got their info from different posts. But when you put the information together, I come to the following conclusion:
The parameters were 100/1.000/1.000.000 (specific/detail/broad strokes)
This also fits with was was shown on TV. Remember: 100 years ago the Centauri gave us jumpgates. And 100 years after Season 4 the last caracter, Delenn, dies on some mystikal journey. We see a glimpse of that in The Deconstruction of Falling Stars.
sleepy_shadow
Regular
Whatever it be... if JMS considers it worth writing, I will consider it worth watching. Due to his prior merit, I would consider objective evaluation even if he published a promotional edutainment vid about spoo ranching.
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I wonder if they really did that. Perhaps the final two Shadow Wars were timed by pure coincidence? Their units of time would probably be different anyway. Their choice of returning might be more related to civilisations having recovered and secured their position -- which admittedly might occur in a fairly predictable amount of time.
Bester
Regular
Well, whatever this new project turns out to be I'd be be very surprised if Jerry Doyle is any way involved. However, If the project is the Telepath War the absence of Garibaldi would not have any adverse affect to the story, as the whole Bester/Garibaldi confrontation is resolved in the 3rd novel of the Telepath Trilogy ("The Fate of Bester").
Joseph DeMartino
Moderator
Garibaldi financed and organized Lyta's army of teeps, and he remains a confidential advisor and personal friend to President Sheridan. As a prominent citizen of Mars (where Psi Corps is headquartered) he'd be deeply involved in all the issues surrounding the Teep War. He'd also be a target for Bester and Co., who know that he's both a philosophicaly and personally opposed to them.
Despite their on-line sniping I doubt that JMS and Doyle would pass up the dramatic possibilities of having Garibaldi in the story - and the money involved - just because of their personal differences.
And yes, I think everybody in B5 was rounding off when they said "100 years ago" or "1,000 years ago". (Especially the aliens, who would necessarily be translating their own time measurements into Earth years.) No big deal. Doesn't bother me at all.
Regards,
Joe
Despite their on-line sniping I doubt that JMS and Doyle would pass up the dramatic possibilities of having Garibaldi in the story - and the money involved - just because of their personal differences.
And yes, I think everybody in B5 was rounding off when they said "100 years ago" or "1,000 years ago". (Especially the aliens, who would necessarily be translating their own time measurements into Earth years.) No big deal. Doesn't bother me at all.
Regards,
Joe
PillowRock
Regular
Besides which, weren't we told (via dialog) that most of Minbari records from the time of the last Shadow War had been destroyed? It is not completely clear to me how well they know the exact dates, even in their own system of reckoning.
I just had this kookie thought of Lennier being all Data-like whenever anyone rounded off:
Delenn: A 1,000 years ago the Shadows-
Lennier: Or 991.3 years to be exact....depending on whether you are using Earth standard or or the Minbari solar calendar, then of course there's the Drazi way of calculating time which would make it -
Delenn: ahem, thank you Lennier. As I was saying, a 1,000 years ago...
Delenn: A 1,000 years ago the Shadows-
Lennier: Or 991.3 years to be exact....depending on whether you are using Earth standard or or the Minbari solar calendar, then of course there's the Drazi way of calculating time which would make it -
Delenn: ahem, thank you Lennier. As I was saying, a 1,000 years ago...
D
**DONOTDELETE**
Guest
LOL
Bester
Regular
I'd hate to put a downer on things, but I very much doubt that. Don't forget that jms and Claudia Christian terminated their working relationship and expressed bad feelings towards each other because of a behind-the-scenes misunderstanding.
Jerry Doyle, on the other hand, very publicly attacked jms's character, stating "F**K JOE", and had this to say in a filmforce interview...
IGNFF: Is the door closed for you in the future?
DOYLE: I closed it. Because I won't work for somebody that lies to me, or screws me over. Won't do it.
Sounds pretty final to me.
Joseph DeMartino
Moderator
There was no "misunderstanding" involved in Claudia's situation. She quit, plain and simple. She didn't think she'd have enough to do in S5, she didn't sign a contract extension and she didn't sign a new contract by the clear deadline she was given because she didn't want to come back for the final season. Everything she said at the time about money and everything else was crap, as she has since admitted. And it didn't all happen "behind the scenes". She spoke out quite publicly, lied that JMS had fired her and posted a great deal of nonsense on her website. JMS responded, fans took sides and there was an internet flame war that persisted for years as a result of all this. Claudia finally admitted in a magazine interview that she had quit the show for her own reasons, and she has repeated those statements at conventions since.
Yet she's been involved in the DVDs and JMS has gone out of his way to say nice things about her in his commentary tracks (when he could easily have simply kept quiet.)
Jerry and JMS have publicly taken shots at each other before, and Jerry is known for shooting from the lip at times - making very strong statements that he then backs down from later. (He was all bent out of shape a couple of years ago when he was again trying to revive the series and JMS made a joke comparing him to Joan of Arc - but he still did the DVD commentary tracks.)
If they dangle a juicy enough role and a big enough paycheck in front of him I'm sure he'll sign up for the part. A movie set is not like a television production. It is much more in the hands of the director than the executive producer. Their interaction wouldn't be nearly as great and Jerry could rationalize that he isn't really working for JMS, but rather working for Warner Bros. and taking his marching orders from whoever is signed to direct. And JMS would not let his personal feelings cause him to leave the character of Garibaldi out of the script if he thought it was the right thing for the story.
And if worse comes to worst, maybe they can talk Bruce Willis into taking the part for a fraction of his usual fee, just as a goof.
Regards,
Joe
Yet she's been involved in the DVDs and JMS has gone out of his way to say nice things about her in his commentary tracks (when he could easily have simply kept quiet.)
Jerry and JMS have publicly taken shots at each other before, and Jerry is known for shooting from the lip at times - making very strong statements that he then backs down from later. (He was all bent out of shape a couple of years ago when he was again trying to revive the series and JMS made a joke comparing him to Joan of Arc - but he still did the DVD commentary tracks.)
If they dangle a juicy enough role and a big enough paycheck in front of him I'm sure he'll sign up for the part. A movie set is not like a television production. It is much more in the hands of the director than the executive producer. Their interaction wouldn't be nearly as great and Jerry could rationalize that he isn't really working for JMS, but rather working for Warner Bros. and taking his marching orders from whoever is signed to direct. And JMS would not let his personal feelings cause him to leave the character of Garibaldi out of the script if he thought it was the right thing for the story.
And if worse comes to worst, maybe they can talk Bruce Willis into taking the part for a fraction of his usual fee, just as a goof.
Regards,
Joe
