Biggest unanswered questions...

[Looney]

what I do not admit is that "canon" necessarily means "good"!

HAHAHA :guffaw:

I think the perfect example of this is Book #7, The Shadow Within. I love that JMS says half the book is canon.

I remember when the original books started coming out in the 90's. I think Book #3 Blood Oath was where I REALLY started saying "HOLD THE PHONE!!!!!". I remember the description of Narn was soooooo incredibly far from what I imagined that it made me mad. I really felt the person writing the book had not seen the series. Oddly enough I started reading these books before I had seen Season One. I guess the first two books didn't throw me off because I was always thinking I was missing something having not seen Season One when it originally aired.

Anyway I still need to read those trilogies. I'm not going to lie that I am a little afraid that I will have another Blood Oath moment, but like Jan said these books are from JMS' outlines so I'm sure that won't happen . . . . too often.

 

[Springer]

I read somewhere that George Lucas once stated that there were different types of Star Wars canon. There's the movies-only canon, the old expanded-Universe canon, the new Disney canon and so on. And that whichever one you wished to follow, that was okay. People could choose what they wanted in their own personal canon. I don't see why it can't be the same for B5.

 

[Jan]

I readily admit the trilogies are canon; I also admit that JMS's explanation for how Londo's three prophecies shake out is canon; what I do not admit is that "canon" necessarily means "good"!

Good point. Trouble is, far too many people think that "good" = "what I like" or "how I think it should have been".

 

[Looney]

[

Good point. Trouble is, far too many people think that "good" = "what I like" or "how I think it should have been".

So true, Jan. It is fun that people think things would be better if it were how they "think it should have been." because everyone knows by now things are only better if they are how Looney thinks they should have been.

:guffaw::guffaw:

And don't even tell me I am wrong about Book #3 because there is no way I am wrong about that not being in anyone's canon. (I wish I could read it without associating it to B5.)

And saying this doesn't mean one couldn't make changes that would make it even better. There are things in B5 that could be changed to make it even better, but that is not to say they are things that would necessarily change the overall story. Hindsight means you can always see tweaks here and there that would make things gel better without losing important things. I don't just mean unforeseen issues that cropped up causing things to be changed, more like dialogue that could be added to establish some things more concretely (and some dialogue here and there that was delivered better :devil. Of course I am a FIRM believer that just about every episode should have been at least 90 mins, so JMS could flesh out the Universe even more. I love the little details and longer scripts could have been full of them. And now I've started telling you my secrets to how B5 could be even better.

 

[Jan]

Of course I am a FIRM believer that just about every episode should have been at least 90 mins, so JMS could flesh out the Universe even more. I love the little details and longer scripts could have been full of them. And now I've started telling you my secrets to how B5 could be even better.

Perhaps. But I liked JMS' answer when I asked him what the ideal length and number of episodes per season would be in an ideal world:

>In an ideal 'JMS sets the standards' world, what do you think would be the
>optimum length for a television episode? What about the number of episodes
>to
>constitute a season?

You have to understand that I'm a Russian, and we're not known for telling
short stories. So for me an episode would be perfect at 60 minutes, no
commercials, and a season would have 52 episodes per year.

What can I say, I yammer....

 

[Looney]

Of course I am a FIRM believer that just about every episode should have been at least 90 mins, so JMS could flesh out the Universe even more. I love the little details and longer scripts could have been full of them. And now I've started telling you my secrets to how B5 could be even better.

Perhaps. But I liked JMS' answer when I asked him what the ideal length and number of episodes per season would be in an ideal world:

>In an ideal 'JMS sets the standards' world, what do you think would be the
>optimum length for a television episode? What about the number of episodes
>to
>constitute a season?

You have to understand that I'm a Russian, and we're not known for telling
short stories. So for me an episode would be perfect at 60 minutes, no
commercials, and a season would have 52 episodes per year.

What can I say, I yammer....

Do you realize you just proved my point?!?!?!?! 60 minute episode with no commercials would be about the same length as a 90 minute episode with commercials.

And I am not ashamed to admit when I read "60 minute episode with no commercials" and "52 episodes per year" the hairs on the back of my neck stood up. What a glorious Season that would be..... :drool: :beer::dancing:

 

[Jan]

Great minds think alike...

 

[KoshFan]

I've gotta disagree on this one. Writers work best when under limitations. I just finished Stephen King's book "On Writing," and one of his secrets is that the second draft should be 10% shorter than the first one. And Joss Whedon once said of Buffy that the writing simply had to be as good as possible because "We couldn't hide bad writing with a dog-and-pony show, because we couldn't afford the pony."

I think if JMS had had total freedom to write 50 hour-long eps, the show would have been too overgrown, too shaggy, and downright stale. The Robert Jordan of science fiction television.

Keep it focused. Show what has to be there. And always leave the audience wanting more.

 

[Looney]

I've gotta disagree on this one. Writers work best when under limitations. I just finished Stephen King's book "On Writing," and one of his secrets is that the second draft should be 10% shorter than the first one. And Joss Whedon once said of Buffy that the writing simply had to be as good as possible because "We couldn't hide bad writing with a dog-and-pony show, because we couldn't afford the pony."

I think if JMS had had total freedom to write 50 hour-long eps, the show would have been too overgrown, too shaggy, and downright stale. The Robert Jordan of science fiction television.

Keep it focused. Show what has to be there. And always leave the audience wanting more.

I respectfully disagree. I completely understand your point and I know that in some regards having that much latitude might lead to some issues, but one thing I think certain B5 episodes suffer from is big ideas that had to be scaled down for time. An example I often like to use is Infection, 1.4. I feel like more people would love this episode as much as I do if there had been more time to flesh the story out a little more. Start with the discovery of the artifact, a bit more time dealing with Drake being on the loose, and maybe a little more emphasis placed on what the weapon actually did to an entire race. We're talking about the elimination of an entire species. At the current length somethings seem rushed.

 

[KoshFan]

Fair enough. I'll grant you that five minutes here or there would have made things a lot better. I remember how the endings of both two-parter eps got mangled because they had to move stuff around to meet the time limits, and if they'd been able to just do one 40-minute ep and one 48-minute ep instead of trying to balance, it would have improved the show.

But that's fairly minor. If we'd had fifty eps a season, I guarantee you there would have been more clunkers like "Gray 17 is Missing". We would have no doubt seen the saga of getting the methane-breathers' toilets up and running. Another 839 things would have come straight from hell, and 1,201 more things would be going straight there.

JMS understood this, after all: he said "Five seasons, no more," and he basically stuck to that!

 

[Karajorma]

I wouldn't want more episodes for the reasons given. But I think that having 50 minutes per episode rather than 45 would have been good for the show.

 

[Looney]

If we'd had fifty eps a season, I guarantee you there would have been more clunkers like "Gray 17 is Missing".!

AH-HA!!!!! Now I have YOU!!!!!! :guffaw: I think if Grey 17 is Missing could have been great if JMS hadn't been forced to limit it to a run time. I feel like so much more would work in that episode with more exposition. If he had been able to explain some of the things more I feel like it would have gelled a lot better. I think it is a great idea, but it needed more details fleshed out. Also if there had been a better solution than the steam pipe. Or at least a better visualization of that solution. Steam pipe was fine, but how it played out on camera left something to be desired.

And as I said in the "Change One Thing" thread, longer episodes would allow for more detail with regard to important things like the races in The League. With longer episodes we could have had an A Plot, B Plot, C Plot, and then a D Plot that showed us something happening with one of League Races.

 

[KoshFan]

Fair enough -- and I agree, building more suspense leading up to the confrontation with the Zarg could have made things a lot better. (Honestly, I don't mind "Gray 17" as much as I think of it as a wasted opportunity. And the B plot is magnificent.)

On the other hand, I think a lot of the problem with some of the clunkers was they didn't have enough time to make them. A TV shooting schedule is wild, after all -- writing two, shooting a third, sending a fourth off to post-production -- and if they'd tried to do many more than 22 in a year, I think JMS would have simply burned out, or started cutting corners. I hope he would have recruited more writers instead of writing every word for three and a half years (Neil Gaiman excepted), but that would have been risking a different kind of problem.

 

[jumptheshark]

If we'd had fifty eps a season, I guarantee you there would have been more clunkers like "Gray 17 is Missing".!

AH-HA!!!!! Now I have YOU!!!!!! :guffaw: I think if Grey 17 is Missing could have been great if JMS hadn't been forced to limit it to a run time. I feel like so much more would work in that episode with more exposition. If he had been able to explain some of the things more I feel like it would have gelled a lot better. I think it is a great idea, but it needed more details fleshed out. Also if there had been a better solution than the steam pipe. Or at least a better visualization of that solution. Steam pipe was fine, but how it played out on camera left something to be desired.

And as I said in the "Change One Thing" thread, longer episodes would allow for more detail with regard to important things like the races in The League. With longer episodes we could have had an A Plot, B Plot, C Plot, and then a D Plot that showed us something happening with one of League Races.

grey 17 had a great concept--execution was just not what it could have been. most people hate it--but I look at it slightly different and think it could have been one of the better episodes if it was thought out more

 

[Looney]

grey 17 had a great concept--execution was just not what it could have been. most people hate it--but I look at it slightly different and think it could have been one of the better episodes if it was thought out more

I definitely agree. The idea was solid it just didn't turn out in the execution. And of course the non-Garibaldi plot is top notch. It just lacks when it comes to telling the monster story. I think in part because Robert Englund is so good as Jeremiah, but we only get a brief glimpse. As I've said in the past, I wish we had more stories about other events on the station. There were so many opportunities to explore parts of the station we never saw with characters who had little to do with the main plot. Or even characters who were connected to the main plot, but we never saw them as part of the main plot.

And while I am at it, there are so many stories I want to hear about the guest star's characters. So many great characters introduced in one episode to never be heard from again. Sure some were annoying, but I would still like to know if Jinxo found the Grail or if Alisa Beldon ended up playing a critical role in the Shadow War.

 

[KoshFan]

...I would still like to know if Jinxo found the Grail...

Aldus never did get to ask Kosh what the Vorlons knew, if anything. And I doubt Thomas asked before he left. And if any of the ambassadors would know, it'd be Kosh. So while I fear Thomas never found the Grail, if he at least found other seekers to keep the search going, perhaps the order did find the Grail in the end. After all, there were all those hints about cool stuff that was gonna happen eventually. Ironheart might be able to find the Grail. Or it might be on the Vorlon Homeworld.

 

[Looney]

Aldus never did get to ask Kosh what the Vorlons knew, if anything. And I doubt Thomas asked before he left. And if any of the ambassadors would know, it'd be Kosh. So while I fear Thomas never found the Grail, if he at least found other seekers to keep the search going, perhaps the order did find the Grail in the end. After all, there were all those hints about cool stuff that was gonna happen eventually. Ironheart might be able to find the Grail. Or it might be on the Vorlon Homeworld.

Or I could choose to imagine that Thomas did talk to Kosh before he left and he knew exactly where to look. :thumbsup:

Honestly I could care less if he found The Grail. The journey was the real point of the episode, not the object at the end of the journey. I just think there is a fountain of stories in the B5 universe to tell. Thomas' story is probably one I'm not very interested in, but that was an instantly recognizable reference so I used it as an example.

 

[KoshFan]

Yeah, the journey was the important point in "Grail" -- but it would be kinda funny if, in a million years, humanity figured out how to be beings of light, occupied the Vorlon homeworld, reconnected with Ironheart... and found the Holy Grail as a sort of side note.

 

[Looney]

Yeah, the journey was the important point in "Grail" -- but it would be kinda funny if, in a million years, humanity figured out how to be beings of light, occupied the Vorlon homeworld, reconnected with Ironheart... and found the Holy Grail as a sort of side note.

:guffaw:

Actually it is Ironheart who shows up with The Grail. After his transformation that was the first thing he went looking for. He found it fairly quickly and then hid it again somewhere only he could find it; you know as a joke. A really drawn out joke