Brannon Braga Rocks

[Chilli]

This one was awesome!

The first one on the link is by far the best

But some of the other ones (like the one you already posted) were great too

See, I liked Patterns of Force, The Omega Glory and The Apple. Catspaw was the only one of that group, and of the season, that I really didn't care for much. Season 2 of TOS was awesome.

Opinions vary, yes - I hear Markas hates "A Piece of the Action"

.. including "The Apple" was probably stupid. It seemed silly to me the last time I watched it, but it is essential TOS really, when thinking about it.

Patterns of Force and Omega Glory both bugged me for taking the "just like Earth" syndrome way too far, or doing so naively.

I didn't have a problem with "just like earth" syndrome - hey, it makes sense that they had all these backlots to use, and no means to make them look alien. I loved A Piece of the Action, for example. I also loved allegory - Errand of Mercy and Doomsday Machine are both absolute favourites of mine.

But when you get super-Aryan blone aliens waving Swastikas and chasing the children of Zeon, with names like Abrom, Isak and Davod, it just becomes silly (especially since that later bit seems to have been pure coincidence - I doubt Gill could have influenced the NAMES the Ekosians' neighbours use among themselves)

The politics just also seemed naive to me. John Gill, apparently a brilliant historian, decided to reconstruct Nazi Germany because it was the "most efficient state ever". The thing is though .. that's a load of bull. Nazi Germany was effective for a few years in the 30s, yes, but it was an utterly self-destructive state. Its economic sucess was based on armament for a military conflict which was bound to destroy the state. Remove that conflict, and you have no effective Nazi Germany. One would think a brilliant historian would know this. And I don't see why a historian, wanting to create a fascist state, would base it *exactly* on Nazi Germany, symbols and all.

Also, I had way too high expectations for it, not having seen it till relatively recently, as it is the "forbidden" episode here (it never was forbidden in Austria, and it no longer is forbidden in Germany .. but as German TV did not want to touch it in the 60s/70s, it was not dubbed back then, and this isn't included in broadcasts here or on German TV) .. with all the controversity around it, I was expecting it to be a bit .. deeper, I guess.

Omega Glory .. I liked it till it turned out that the asian looking people were Communists (eventhough there was NOTHING communist about them) and the Neanderthalers turned out to have the US constitution. The last 10 minutes are just laughably bad, for me - Kirk lecturing the cave men about "We the people", and the Enterprise crrew leaving with pride, when it's perfeclty obvious that the cavemen just *didn't get it*.

 

[GKarsEye]

The politics just also seemed naive to me. John Gill, apparently a brilliant historian, decided to reconstruct Nazi Germany because it was the "most efficient state ever". The thing is though .. that's a load of bull. Nazi Germany was effective for a few years in the 30s, yes, but it was an utterly self-destructive state. Its economic sucess was based on armament for a military conflict which was bound to destroy the state. Remove that conflict, and you have no effective Nazi Germany. One would think a brilliant historian would know this. And I don't see why a historian, wanting to create a fascist state, would base it *exactly* on Nazi Germany, symbols and all.

I believe that the "Mussolini made the trains run on time" idea was still taken for granted in the 60s, and indeed, many today still hold to that idea. The whole "they may be bastards but they get things done" is certainly today a significant element in American, European and Russian politics.

 

[Chilli]

I believe that the "Mussolini made the trains run on time" idea was still taken for granted in the 60s, and indeed, many today still hold to that idea. The whole "they may be bastards but they get things done" is certainly today a significant element in American, European and Russian politics.

It certainly was the basis of Jörg Haider's popularity here, before it became *too* obvious that he's a nutcase.

I've never quite understood it, though. Yeah, the trains improved under Mussolini - because he came in just after the end of World War I, which happened to have smashed up the Italian rail network, big time. There was no way to go but up for the Italian train network at the time.

As for Germany, I don't get why people pick out the 30s as a positive example of successful economy. Yeah, the German economy did improve after the horrid state it was left in after World War I .. but didn't the German economy do the same thing after World War II too? A lot more effectively, too, as Germany still one of the leading economic powers of the world - and didn't collapse within 10 years, didn't cause any genocide, and didn't trigger a global war.

Wirtschaftswunder >> Hitler

I can deal with Trek social commentaries being a bit naive at times. I don't mind A Private Little War, also if it's a bit simple-minded. Patterns of Force was just too stupid, though, for me.

I guess it's conceivable that Gill was just supposed to be a bit stupid .. that doesn't explain the Zeons Abrom, Davod and Isak though.

 

[hypatia]

Can I instigate some thread drift, here? I don't know most show's episodes by title; I'm almost tempted to rent TOS just to see what people consider silly.

Whatever the episode was with Gem or someone was silly, I guess, but somehow it was fairly moving to me. The episode in question is of the mute healer who has to deal with Kirk, Spock, and McCoy being slowly tortured to death to "test" her species' worthiness of being saved form some catastrophhic something coming to that planet.

She gave, and gave, and gave, and yet technically she "failed" because she did finally pause in order to heal herself. Even as a kid I wanted to kick those big-vericose-vein-headed aliens in the shins for having such a .... stupid measure of worthiness.

But wow, that actress really knew how to draw you into her eyes. That's one of those episodes that I think of (assume) was rather unique for television at that time.

 

[GKarsEye]

Wow, I don't remember that episode at all. Maybe I'll catch during my abbreviated re-watch of the series (though I'm not planning on picking up season 3).


Speaking of naive social commentarym, another one of my favorite of those posters I linked to is the one with the half black/half white guy and it says something like "could this episode be an allegory of 20th Century earth?"

Modern sci-fi now always has to be "gritty" and "realistic" (whatever the hell that means for space show) and be all about dark this and grey-area that. Now that stuff is cool, but TOS, with its psychedelic look, Cold War extremese of impending doom and sunny optimism, and even the outdated sexism is refreshingly entertaining.

 

[Recoil]

I think that episode was called "The Empath." One of the very few good episodes of the third season.

 

[Chilli]

Recoil is right, ob both counts. It's The Empath, and it's quite decent.

"Let That Be Your Last Battlefield" is a good example for a naive social commentary that I found quite fun. Sure, it was crappy, but hey.

Actually, it's quite hypocritic of me to dislike some TOS episodes for being "too silly", as so many of the episodes I love are just silly. "Mirror, Mirror" for example. There are no words to describe how silly it is, but god is it awesome. Same for "Piece of the Action", "Return to Tomorrow" or "By Any Other Name"

 

[Chilli]

So, I got through TNG .. movies and all.

Movies. Egh. Well .. Nemesis, egh.

I know plenty of movies that are unintentionally funny .. this movie is unintentionally tragic. It's so bloody sad to watch it, but for all the wrong reasons.

Also, worst writing ever on that movie. The dialogue is just ALL so bloody .. expose. People saying things they would never say, to inform the audience of what was going on. Well I guess it was necessary, as it all already made so little sense as it was. I guess the point was that Shinzon was EVIL. BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD. The only good things about the movie are the scene in which the viewscreen is blasted, and people get sucked out into space through it, and Picard calling Riker "Mr. Troi".

I actually don't hate Insurrection. I know, that makes me a rare minority, but I never had any expectations to it. So I was actually satisfied with the overlong standard TNG episode that it was. I actually liked standard TNG episodes okay enough.

First Contact is fun, duh. Generations we've all ranted about, I believe.

My favourite feature, though, is All Good Things, I think. In spite of it being a TV production, it's just so much more of a grand finale than any of the movies. It was fun, it was grand, it had a good plot (also if it had huge plotholes), and it gave every single character great stuff to do.

And I actually found the ending, with Picard joining them all for a game of poker before the Enterprise rides off into the sunset, extremely touching. I'll go hand in my guy-card now.

Next up .. Deep Space Nine. Bugger, six seasons of putting up with Jadzia before I can finally drool over Ezri again.

 

[GKarsEye]

Bugger, six seasons of putting up with Jadzia before I can finally drool over Ezri again.

You're insane.

 

[tygirwulf]

You're insane.

Agreed.

 

[vacantlook]

Movies. Egh. Well .. Nemesis, egh.

The best thing about Nemesis is that we actually had a halfway decent space battle for once in that the Enterprise fired its freaking arsenal of weapons more than once. Too many ST battles consist of the Enterprise being hit twelve times per every one shot it takes, for no logical reasons. You don't stock a ship with a hundred or more torpedos to only fire one or two when you have a major confrontation, damn it!

 

[Chilli]

You're insane.

I know. But I always liked Ezri more than Jadzia. I think it was mostly the whole Klingon crap that made Jadzia supremely annoying for me.

 

[GKarsEye]

Eh, typical geek- pissed that she picked the jock over the brainiac.

Jadzia had a similar problem as Troi- they started her off as this boring, robotic character in order to try to make her more alien and mysterious, then gave up and just gave her a personality instead. Both were never very good characters, IMO, and certainly not Ezri- like Captain Lochley, it's just hard to get into a brand new major character in the last season of a show.

So, DS9, eh? You gonna do all the eps, or wisely skip over those god-awful Ferengi ones?

 

[Pobman]

Both were never very good characters, IMO, and certainly not Ezri- like Captain Lochley, it's just hard to get into a brand new major character in the last season of a show.

Chalk up another one in the Jadzia camp.

I wondered why the hell they even bothered introducing Ezri in the final season . As GKE said it's hard to get her into the show. Having the characters lose a friend completely would have been far better and the time they spent on introducing her could have been better spent on other things.

 

[KoshN]

The best thing about Nemesis is that we actually had a halfway decent space battle for once in that the Enterprise fired its freaking arsenal of weapons more than once. Too many ST battles consist of the Enterprise being hit twelve times per every one shot it takes, for no logical reasons. You don't stock a ship with a hundred or more torpedos to only fire one or two when you have a major confrontation, damn it!

Oh, thanks. You just brought back memories of TNG - The Picard Years, when Enterprise-D was most adept at being a target. The first time they took decisive offensive action and won, that comes to mind right now, was:

TNG -Season: 5 Episode: 14 "Conundrum"
http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/library/episodes/TNG/detail/68534.html

 

[GaribaldisHair]

And I actually found the ending, with Picard joining them all for a game of poker before the Enterprise rides off into the sunset, extremely touching. I'll go hand in my guy-card now.

Forget the guy-card. This is what really happens.

 

[Chilli]

The best thing about Nemesis is that we actually had a halfway decent space battle for once in that the Enterprise fired its freaking arsenal of weapons more than once. Too many ST battles consist of the Enterprise being hit twelve times per every one shot it takes, for no logical reasons. You don't stock a ship with a hundred or more torpedos to only fire one or two when you have a major confrontation, damn it!

Yeah, the battles were quite "good". The bit with the Enterprise ramming the Reman ship was also pretty cool.

I just couldn't care about it, though. The reasons for it all seemed so contrieved and fake. Yech.

Eh, typical geek- pissed that she picked the jock over the brainiac.

Oi! .. I'm not complaining about Troi having chosen Riker over .. say .. Geordi

Okay, maybe it is a bit of that, as I did think Bashir "suited" her a lot more than Worf did, but obviously would not be nearly as much of a lay.

It's just Trek romances in general that bug me, I guess. Chakotay/Seven? WTF?

It didn't help though to get all that Klingon romance stuff too. I'm no fan of romance. I'm no fan of Klingon stuff. So Klingon romance is pretty far down on my list.

Eh, typical geek- pissed that she picked the jock over the brainiac.

So, DS9, eh? You gonna do all the eps, or wisely skip over those god-awful Ferengi ones?[/quote]

I haven't decided yet .. I think I'll try all, but give up if individual episodes have too much wacky-Ferengi or emo-Klingon stuff, I'll just skip it.

I've never seen any of the really stupid Ferengi episodes, as I kind of lost track of the show in season 5, and only saw the episodes worth bothering to catch after this (borrowed tapes from a friend). So I have not experienced the sensational badness of them yet, actually, and am kind of morbidly curious. Though I doubt to find much redeeming stuff in an episode about Quark cross-dressing.

 

[GKarsEye]

'm not complaining about Troi having chosen Riker over .. say .. Geordi

Troi also chose Warf. In addition to Troi and Jadzia, he also got that righteous half-Klingon chick. What can ya say, he's just the mack.

I've never seen any of the really stupid Ferengi episodes, as I kind of lost track of the show in season 5, and only saw the episodes worth bothering to catch after this (borrowed tapes from a friend). So I have not experienced the sensational badness of them yet, actually, and am kind of morbidly curious. Though I doubt to find much redeeming stuff in an episode about Quark cross-dressing.

There were a fair share of Ferengi eps upto season 5. The one big thing you probably missed after that was the whole thing with Quark's mother marrying the Grand "Inconthievable" Nagus. Ya didn't miss much.

Oh.. and the baseball episode... the WORST episode of anything ever. Really, I'd rather watch some Dawson's Creek bullshit than that episode.

That Quark in drag ep messed me up so bad I couldn't have sex for a week.

 

[Sindatur]

Troi also chose Warf. In addition to Troi and Jadzia, he also got that righteous half-Klingon chick. What can ya say, he's just the mack.



There were a fair share of Ferengi eps upto season 5. The one big thing you probably missed after that was the whole thing with Quark's mother marrying the Grand "Inconthievable" Nagus. Ya didn't miss much.

Oh.. and the baseball episode... the WORST episode of anything ever. Really, I'd rather watch some Dawson's Creek bullshit than that episode.

That Quark in drag ep messed me up so bad I couldn't have sex for a week.

Even the folks who hated the BattleStar Galactica Boxing episode (after actually watching it) still liked it way better than the DS9 Baseball episode

 

[Chilli]

There were a fair share of Ferengi eps upto season 5. The one big thing you probably missed after that was the whole thing with Quark's mother marrying the Grand "Inconthievable" Nagus. Ya didn't miss much.

Yeah, I missed that one. The Ferengi episodes I do remember ..

the one where Quark is conned into believing he'll die, and sells his corpse. That one wasn't that bad, I think.

And the one where he has to fight Klingons, for some reason. Ferengis + Klingons .. yipee.

Pity they had to drive both species to such an annoying level, as both Worf and Quark were quite cool per se, IMHO.

I have seen the Baseball episode, unfortunately. Holy shit. I have also seen Let He Who is Without Sin, which was probably even more painful for me.