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Buffy the Vampire Slayer
- Thread starter GKarsEye
- Start date
vacantlook
Super Moderator
:devil:
I love how they fuck with us with the opening credits of "Seeing Red." So, three episodes to go.
I love how they fuck with us with the opening credits of "Seeing Red." So, three episodes to go.
GKarsEye
Regular
Done with the season (changed/canceled plans, lack of interest in the Sat. night HBO fight and really really horrible weather conspired to let me blow through the rest of the season).
I dunno I thought it was pretty good. Dark Willow was pretty sweet to watch (they must've blown through more FX cash in those episodes than in anything they've done before). Tara's death was sad, I really liked her character (and personally found her to be the sexiest woman on the whole series). Giles' return was both cool and kind of ridiculous plot-wise (it was part of his plan to make her super-powerful... ok). Loved Buffy summarizing the season for Giles and their outburst of laughter. Thought Spike's Africa trip was pretty silly but look forward to seeing the consequences.
So all-in-all it was pretty good, some strong episodes, some weak ones, the good out-weighs the bad- pretty much like every other season.
vacantlook
Super Moderator
And so, you're on to the final season of Buffy. For Buffy7/Angel4, the broadcast order is mindnumbingly twisted. Here's the list.
Buffy -- Lessons
Buffy -- Beneath You
Angel -- Deep Down
Buffy -- Same Time, Same Place
Angel -- Ground State
Buffy -- Help
Angel -- The House Always Wins
Buffy -- Selfless
Angel -- Slouching Toward Bethlehem
Angel -- Supersymmetry
Buffy -- Him
Angel -- Spin The Bottle
Buffy -- Conversations With Dead People
Angel -- Apocalypse, Nowish
Buffy -- Sleeper
Buffy -- Never Leave Me
Buffy -- Bring On The Night
Buffy -- Showtime
Angel -- Habeas Corpses
Buffy -- Potential
Angel -- Long Day's Journey
Angel -- Awakening
Buffy -- The Killer In Me
Angel -- Soulless
Buffy -- First Date
Angel -- Calvary
Buffy -- Get It Done
Buffy -- Storyteller
Angel -- Salvage
Angel -- Release
Angel -- Orpheus
Buffy -- Lies My Parents Told Me
Angel -- Players
Angel -- Inside Out
Angel -- Shiny Happy People
Buffy -- Dirty Girls
Angel -- The Magic Bullet
Angel -- Sacrifice
Buffy -- Empty Places
Angel -- Peace Out
Buffy -- Touched
Angel -- Home
Buffy -- End Of Days
Buffy -- Chosen
A couple of notes. Angel's "Orpheus" was broadcast before Buffy's "Lies My Parents Told Me," but there is something relatively minor that happens in "Lies My Parents Told Me" that takes place before "Orpheus" that connects the two episodes together. It's not that big of a thing, and I think it's more fun to watch "Orpheus" not knowing something's coming, which you will know it's coming if you watch "Likes My Parents Told Me" first. So, even though "Lies..." is chronologically first, I'd say stick with the original broadcast order and watch "Orpheus" first.
But if you choose not to -- let's say you get so wrapped up in Buffy you want to watch a burst of Buffy episodes -- do be sure that you've watched the trio of Angel episodes "Salvage," "Release," and "Orpheus" before you watch Buffy's "Dirty Girls." Also, be sure to watch the season finale of Angel -- "Home" -- before you watch the last two episodes of Buffy -- "End of Days" and "Chosen."
Buffy -- Lessons
Buffy -- Beneath You
Angel -- Deep Down
Buffy -- Same Time, Same Place
Angel -- Ground State
Buffy -- Help
Angel -- The House Always Wins
Buffy -- Selfless
Angel -- Slouching Toward Bethlehem
Angel -- Supersymmetry
Buffy -- Him
Angel -- Spin The Bottle
Buffy -- Conversations With Dead People
Angel -- Apocalypse, Nowish
Buffy -- Sleeper
Buffy -- Never Leave Me
Buffy -- Bring On The Night
Buffy -- Showtime
Angel -- Habeas Corpses
Buffy -- Potential
Angel -- Long Day's Journey
Angel -- Awakening
Buffy -- The Killer In Me
Angel -- Soulless
Buffy -- First Date
Angel -- Calvary
Buffy -- Get It Done
Buffy -- Storyteller
Angel -- Salvage
Angel -- Release
Angel -- Orpheus
Buffy -- Lies My Parents Told Me
Angel -- Players
Angel -- Inside Out
Angel -- Shiny Happy People
Buffy -- Dirty Girls
Angel -- The Magic Bullet
Angel -- Sacrifice
Buffy -- Empty Places
Angel -- Peace Out
Buffy -- Touched
Angel -- Home
Buffy -- End Of Days
Buffy -- Chosen
A couple of notes. Angel's "Orpheus" was broadcast before Buffy's "Lies My Parents Told Me," but there is something relatively minor that happens in "Lies My Parents Told Me" that takes place before "Orpheus" that connects the two episodes together. It's not that big of a thing, and I think it's more fun to watch "Orpheus" not knowing something's coming, which you will know it's coming if you watch "Likes My Parents Told Me" first. So, even though "Lies..." is chronologically first, I'd say stick with the original broadcast order and watch "Orpheus" first.
But if you choose not to -- let's say you get so wrapped up in Buffy you want to watch a burst of Buffy episodes -- do be sure that you've watched the trio of Angel episodes "Salvage," "Release," and "Orpheus" before you watch Buffy's "Dirty Girls." Also, be sure to watch the season finale of Angel -- "Home" -- before you watch the last two episodes of Buffy -- "End of Days" and "Chosen."
vacantlook
Super Moderator
As for discussing the finale episodes of season six of Buffy....
It really did seem like they had more cgi and visual affects in the last several episodes than they had before. There were some moments that I didn't think it was truly necessary, like with Willow using magic to prevent someone from walking; that could've just been covered with acting instead of some glowy blast of miscellaneous energy.
And Giles's big plan to have Willow absorb his magic pushes it for me too; it just doesn't really make sense. But I do so very much love how Giles shows up there at the end blasting Willow across the room.
Tara's death is one of the most painful the show's ever done. I don't know how accurate they were, but I have read in some places that they had originally planned on having Tara be killed earlier, but they just loved her character so much they just kept putting it off as long as they could.
Scary Veiny Willow definitely had the scare factor on. Magically ripping Warren's skin off really put the freak in her. And note how she said, "Bored now," right before doing it, which was a phrase that Vampre Willow from the alternate timeline back in season three was known for saying.
It really did seem like they had more cgi and visual affects in the last several episodes than they had before. There were some moments that I didn't think it was truly necessary, like with Willow using magic to prevent someone from walking; that could've just been covered with acting instead of some glowy blast of miscellaneous energy.
And Giles's big plan to have Willow absorb his magic pushes it for me too; it just doesn't really make sense. But I do so very much love how Giles shows up there at the end blasting Willow across the room.
Tara's death is one of the most painful the show's ever done. I don't know how accurate they were, but I have read in some places that they had originally planned on having Tara be killed earlier, but they just loved her character so much they just kept putting it off as long as they could.
Scary Veiny Willow definitely had the scare factor on. Magically ripping Warren's skin off really put the freak in her. And note how she said, "Bored now," right before doing it, which was a phrase that Vampre Willow from the alternate timeline back in season three was known for saying.
GKarsEye
Regular
I noticed the catchphrase (again, one of the benefits of watching the whole thing so fast). Vampire Willow I think was when I first saw Hannigan as a strong actress and not just a nerdy-fanboy-object-of-affection/obsession cutesy pie, which was then brought home when Oz left and confirmed since. This made her arc in season 6 enjoyable.
I think I'm gonna stick with the order you posted, which matches the wikipedia order:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o....2F3_.28Buffy.2FAngel.2C_2001.E2.80.932002.29
It's fun to tag along this page while watching the series (just skipping the "Arc Significance" portions of the episodes).
I absolutely loved Willow torturing and killing Warren. One of the things I sometimes like or dislike about the show, depending on the episode or my mood, is how casually violence and death are dismissed. Oh, 9 people died, ha ha, let's have a prom. And sometimes it's funny, sometimes it prevents one from getting into the emotional or topical things this show tries to do.
So finally they have a violent death that's disturbing on some level, that creates moral conflict (Buffy was really the only one who was adamant about not killing Warren because it would be wrong, Xander and Dawn were just concerned about Willow's well-being and supporting Buffy. That is a significant difference and source for potential conflict).
I think one of the reasons that Tara was so effective a character was the natural expressiveness of her face. The bold features and heavy eyelids made sudden changes in her facial ticks come across as really "big," for lack of a better term, and bold strokes work best in a fantasy show. And, yeah, did I mention how goddamn sexy she is?
Into season 7 and Sunnydale High is back, Dawn is a potential ass-kicker, President David Palmer's brother is the principle, Buffy is a counselor (pretty ridiculous that they'd give her that position without any experience, training, even an undergrad degree, but whatevs), Spike is back with a soul and haunted by the first evil, and frankly I was surprised that Anya is still a main character.
I'm assuming a few months go by between each season in the show's time, too? 'Cause Xander is already mackin' on some other chick, I'm assuming he had to take some time to get over Anya. Which means Willow spent a pretty long time in England (according to wikipedia, Heads' real house). She'll come back permanently altered and no limit to her power, making her potentially more of a bad-ass than Buffy herself.
Haven't said much about Angel- I dunno, I think it was a mistake to watch both shows together, because I my attention was so wrapped up in the one show that it's hard to care about another. This is why I normally don't watch more than a couple of serial non-comedies on TV while they air- I only have so much TV love to give. And now with nothing currently on the air I like, it's all Buffy, which I watch bunches at a time (though Mad Men starts next week!).
The season 3 finale of Angel made me lol when Cordelia was lifted into heaven.
"I have to go now, my planet needs me."
Note: Poochie was killed on the way to his home planet.
I think I'm gonna stick with the order you posted, which matches the wikipedia order:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o....2F3_.28Buffy.2FAngel.2C_2001.E2.80.932002.29
It's fun to tag along this page while watching the series (just skipping the "Arc Significance" portions of the episodes).
I absolutely loved Willow torturing and killing Warren. One of the things I sometimes like or dislike about the show, depending on the episode or my mood, is how casually violence and death are dismissed. Oh, 9 people died, ha ha, let's have a prom. And sometimes it's funny, sometimes it prevents one from getting into the emotional or topical things this show tries to do.
So finally they have a violent death that's disturbing on some level, that creates moral conflict (Buffy was really the only one who was adamant about not killing Warren because it would be wrong, Xander and Dawn were just concerned about Willow's well-being and supporting Buffy. That is a significant difference and source for potential conflict).
I think one of the reasons that Tara was so effective a character was the natural expressiveness of her face. The bold features and heavy eyelids made sudden changes in her facial ticks come across as really "big," for lack of a better term, and bold strokes work best in a fantasy show. And, yeah, did I mention how goddamn sexy she is?
Into season 7 and Sunnydale High is back, Dawn is a potential ass-kicker, President David Palmer's brother is the principle, Buffy is a counselor (pretty ridiculous that they'd give her that position without any experience, training, even an undergrad degree, but whatevs), Spike is back with a soul and haunted by the first evil, and frankly I was surprised that Anya is still a main character.
I'm assuming a few months go by between each season in the show's time, too? 'Cause Xander is already mackin' on some other chick, I'm assuming he had to take some time to get over Anya. Which means Willow spent a pretty long time in England (according to wikipedia, Heads' real house). She'll come back permanently altered and no limit to her power, making her potentially more of a bad-ass than Buffy herself.
Haven't said much about Angel- I dunno, I think it was a mistake to watch both shows together, because I my attention was so wrapped up in the one show that it's hard to care about another. This is why I normally don't watch more than a couple of serial non-comedies on TV while they air- I only have so much TV love to give. And now with nothing currently on the air I like, it's all Buffy, which I watch bunches at a time (though Mad Men starts next week!).
The season 3 finale of Angel made me lol when Cordelia was lifted into heaven.
"I have to go now, my planet needs me."
Note: Poochie was killed on the way to his home planet.
vacantlook
Super Moderator
Not so rediculous if you have other motives for having her there, but you'll find that out later.
I love the big reveal at the end of the first episode. I was totally unspoiled and hadn't read anyone else's throughts on the episode before I saw it, so I was all "WTF?" about it. With Warren walking in there, I was all, "Oh God, how are you back?" But then all the morphing through the previous seasons' big bads (though with Drusilla in for Angel), I just didn't know what to think, but I was all "Ooo," over it. And then I went online and read everyone going, "It's the First."
Yeah. Think back to the first few seasons. The break between seasons was, inside the show, summer break.
While she might have access to power, she's also very aware of what tapping into power has done to her in the past, and so she has a great deal of hesitation about it.
I think the best parts of season 3 of Angel were Darla sacrificing herself so that her baby could survive/be born since her corpse of a body wouldn't let her physically give birth. I don't know why they didn't think: cessarian!, but it was dramatically fun for her character to go through that. I'd say her sacrifice was the 2nd best thing about the season. The best thing was what Wesley went through what with the "prophesy" and kidnapping Connor and Angel trying to kill him.
I thought the whole Angel-Cordelia love aspect felt forced. And while the whole Cordelia ascending bit does lead to some relatively interesting, although confusing places in season four, that initial bit of her ascending was so... eh.
KoshFan
Regular
Well... not so much officially sanctioned as carefully guided. The issues in the first trade paperback were outright written by him, as are many more, and the last ones will be too.
But yes, S8 has not held my attention quite so much.
Well, she also didn't want to go back to being soulless.
vacantlook
Super Moderator
Well, absolutely everything I've seen about the "Season 8" comic states that it's canonical. So, if you can provide a source that says that it isn't, I'd like to see it.
There have been many things about the story of "Season 8" that bother me. For example, there's something in it that is inconsistent with the show's own internal rules.
Spoiler for the first few issues of the Buffy "Season 8" comic:
GKarsEye
Regular
The only two interesting people on Angel now are Wesley and Connor, and the latter more because of the actor (his role on Mad Men is pretty much the complete opposite, a twirpy skeazy weak whiny brat). It's pretty funny to me to see him as a super-bad-ass.
Fred irritates me very much.
A monster was eating pieces of Willow's skin... man you guys weren't kidding when you said they had more lee-way when they moved networks. That was pretty gross.
But she made herself invisible because she was afraid of how her friends would act? Wow... you know if she were a real person I'd want her dead. Same like Angel- the power and potential for destruction would not be worth the risk of allowing them to muck about.
Spike's big dramatic crazy speech about his soul in a church- how'd that go over for everybody? A bit much? Yeah, a bit much. But that's why we love these shows- we like our nonsense stories to be epic. Still, he couldn't just say the word "soul?" Silly poet vampire.
Clever little scene with him talking to Willow and Buffy and Xander. "Everybody's talking to me but nobody's talking to each other."
Fred irritates me very much.
A monster was eating pieces of Willow's skin... man you guys weren't kidding when you said they had more lee-way when they moved networks. That was pretty gross.
But she made herself invisible because she was afraid of how her friends would act? Wow... you know if she were a real person I'd want her dead. Same like Angel- the power and potential for destruction would not be worth the risk of allowing them to muck about.
Spike's big dramatic crazy speech about his soul in a church- how'd that go over for everybody? A bit much? Yeah, a bit much. But that's why we love these shows- we like our nonsense stories to be epic. Still, he couldn't just say the word "soul?" Silly poet vampire.
Clever little scene with him talking to Willow and Buffy and Xander. "Everybody's talking to me but nobody's talking to each other."
vacantlook
Super Moderator
You might like Fred more as the show continues. I'll admit that she's not super great in season three, but then I'm not all that fond of season three anyway. But I love Fred in seasons 4 and especially 5.
There might have been a couple bits of the Spike church scene that I wasn't crazy about, but as a whole, I did like the scene.
I freaking LOVE the two-sided scene of the Spike-Willow/Spike-Buffy-Xander conversation. Having two conversations simultaneously, but only getting to see half at a time was so very intersting. Also, note the part of Spike's conversation with Buffy: "Look at you glowing. What's a word means glowing?" (The word, of course, that he's looking for is effulgent.
)
There might have been a couple bits of the Spike church scene that I wasn't crazy about, but as a whole, I did like the scene.
I freaking LOVE the two-sided scene of the Spike-Willow/Spike-Buffy-Xander conversation. Having two conversations simultaneously, but only getting to see half at a time was so very intersting. Also, note the part of Spike's conversation with Buffy: "Look at you glowing. What's a word means glowing?" (The word, of course, that he's looking for is effulgent.
)
GKarsEye
Regular
William's a bad man...
Buffy just assumed the principal is from "the hood." Racial sensitivity, not one of a slayer's powers.
A cult of boys wanting to sacrifice a girl to a demon to be rich and powerful = same plot as an older episode. A good example of how this show is not immune to the mighty GKarsEye "Double Album" construct of pop entertainment.
Buffy just assumed the principal is from "the hood." Racial sensitivity, not one of a slayer's powers.
A cult of boys wanting to sacrifice a girl to a demon to be rich and powerful = same plot as an older episode. A good example of how this show is not immune to the mighty GKarsEye "Double Album" construct of pop entertainment.
KoshFan
Regular
I love that scene. There are several bits of Spike that I have essentially memorized, and that's one.
"Your hips are narrow, like a Baltic woman from a slightly more arid region."
GKarsEye
Regular
"Conversations With Dead People" was.. um... interesting...
The girl Spike walked home and bit... I'm not supposed to recognize her am I? This will be expanded upon?
All of the "dead people" were separate incarnations of the first evil then? Planting divisions in Dawn's mind, obviously messing w/ Willow, getting rid of Spike's chip?, and other than comedic value, don't see the point of Buffy's little chat yet.
The girl Spike walked home and bit... I'm not supposed to recognize her am I? This will be expanded upon?
All of the "dead people" were separate incarnations of the first evil then? Planting divisions in Dawn's mind, obviously messing w/ Willow, getting rid of Spike's chip?, and other than comedic value, don't see the point of Buffy's little chat yet.
vacantlook
Super Moderator
No, I don't remember the identity of the woman Spike walked home being a plot point.
Yes, the manifestations were the First. I still have a hard time letting go of the idea that Joyce was actually Joyce, but the official line is that it was all just the First fucking with Dawn. If I remember correctly, they had wanted the First messing with Willow to be in the form of Tara, but Amber Benson declined to return to the show for it. As for Spike, it didn't get rid of his chip, just temporarily neutralized it.
As for Buffy's conversation, it was to set up the idea of how being the one-and-only slayer can fuck with a person's psychology. How, because she's powerful and fights literal evil, she truly does think of herself a bit superior to other people, and how she kind of hates herself for feeling that way.
Yes, the manifestations were the First. I still have a hard time letting go of the idea that Joyce was actually Joyce, but the official line is that it was all just the First fucking with Dawn. If I remember correctly, they had wanted the First messing with Willow to be in the form of Tara, but Amber Benson declined to return to the show for it. As for Spike, it didn't get rid of his chip, just temporarily neutralized it.
As for Buffy's conversation, it was to set up the idea of how being the one-and-only slayer can fuck with a person's psychology. How, because she's powerful and fights literal evil, she truly does think of herself a bit superior to other people, and how she kind of hates herself for feeling that way.
GKarsEye
Regular
Well I mean what was the point from the FIrst One's perspective, what did she have to gain? Just to fuck with her head? To once again separate her from her friends?
And how did she know such intimate details about them, especially Tara and Willow?
I thought it was pretty clear Joyce wasn't really Joyce when she told Dawn not to trust Buffy- a clear attempt to create division.
And how did she know such intimate details about them, especially Tara and Willow?
I thought it was pretty clear Joyce wasn't really Joyce when she told Dawn not to trust Buffy- a clear attempt to create division.
vacantlook
Super Moderator
Oh, I don't think Buffy's conversation with the vampire was a part of the First's activities; I think it was just something that happened simultaneously to the First messing with the others.
By "she" do you mean the First taking on the form of Cassie or whatever that girl's name was? I imagine the First had spent time observing them or the First learned of them when Willow went evil at the end of season 6.
I was expecting a future episode in which Buffy wasn't actually Buffy but was the First pretending to be her, as we saw the First take on Buffy's form at the end of the first episode of the season. I thought Joyce, being dead and connected to whatever's on the other side, was trying to warn Dawn about such a forthcoming event. I was expecting it to lead to everyone else trusting "Buffy" but Dawn knowing better and revealling that "Buffy" wasn't actually Buffy. But no.
GKarsEye
Regular
Yes that's what I meant (and it was indeed "Cassie," short for Cassandra, who in Greek myth also could see horrible things in the future).
I would expect the first one to know the basics, that Willow's gf was killed, she went nuts, tried an apocolypse, etc. But about the singing on the bridge- that's some intimate shit right there.
Which btw, I love that they constantly reference that musical episode, even including a new Anya song as she was stabbed in the chest. I gotta say I was hesitant about keeping her around without her being tied to Xander but that and the Olaf backstory made it worth it.
Meanwhile in the last Angel episode I saw there's a ridiculous monster and Angel Jr nailed Cordelia. Ok, Angel writers, we get it, you're SO DARK.
vacantlook
Super Moderator
Well, all the singing was caused by a demon, so it could've been through that that the First knew about it.
I'm not sure exactly how they had originally planned on doing the story of the 4th season of Angel, but I do know that they had to modify it to deal with Charisma Carpenter (Cordelia) being pregnant in real life. I think having her and Connor boink was probably part of that restructuring of the story. It's also part of the season that I don't like.
