Continuity errors-a list

[Ranger1]

i thought it might be interesting to see how many errors we can list, i spotted about three last night watching Points of Departure, but i'll only start us with one.

1. In Points of Departure, Sheridan states that when he destroyed The Black Star, he also took out three heavy cruisers, however in ItB we see he only destroys the Black Star.

the reason only one error is there is that i was tired last night and it is the only one i can remember, however it is also implied that the ship wasn't smashed to buggery as we know it was from ItB.

 

[B5_Obsessed]

Possible Continuity Error

In "Endgame" when Franklin is viewing the medical logs Marcus pulled down, we see him discussing severe injuries sustained by Marcus. That would most likely be at the conclusion of "Grey 17 is Missing", which is the only time Marcus was ever seen to be hospitalized. At that time, however, Franklin had not yet resumed his duties following his "walkabout".

Like I said, possible and likely... but not definitive.

 

[RMcD]

I like B5 because it has so few (probably fewer I bet than any other show of a comparable length).

There's Thirdspace of course (the combination of characters / uniforms involved makes it hard to figure out where it's supposed to fit in S4).

'Whatever Happened to Mr Garibaldi' had one that was fixed. This is a quote from the Lurker's Guide:

As originally broadcast, Franklin cites the date as January 8 in his opening monologue, and says it's been 14 days since Sheridan disappeared. In the second US broadcast of the episode Franklin's opening monologue was fixed to say it was 9 days since both Sheridan and Garibaldi disappeared. (See jms speaks) However, the UK broadcast, and possibly others, used the original incorrect date.

I remember the incorrect version

Do we include Crusade (eg. Differing accounts of how Eilerson came to be on the crew?)

 

[Ranger1]

we shouldn't include crusade due to the difficulties in it being made there a lot of issues with it.

 

[Recoil]

i thought it might be interesting to see how many errors we can list, i spotted about three last night watching Points of Departure, but i'll only start us with one.

1. In Points of Departure, Sheridan states that when he destroyed The Black Star, he also took out three heavy cruisers, however in ItB we see he only destroys the Black Star.

the reason only one error is there is that i was tired last night and it is the only one i can remember, however it is also implied that the ship wasn't smashed to buggery as we know it was from ItB.

2. The fact that Sheridan said he destroyed the Black Star at the asteroid belt between Earth and Mars. While this is never flat out proven wrong in the movie ItB....its pretty clear from context that at that time of the War, the Minbari are no where near Earth's Solar System.

3. In the first season...and its mentioned a couple times...Delenn and Lennier say there are TWO classes of Minbari: Religious and Warrior. In later seasons it became 3 classes of course, adding the Worker class.

 

[Ranger1]

2. The fact that Sheridan said he destroyed the Black Star at the asteroid belt between Earth and Mars. While this is never flat out proven wrong in the movie ItB....its pretty clear from context that at that time of the War, the Minbari are no where near Earth's Solar System.

3. In the first season...and its mentioned a couple times...Delenn and Lennier say there are TWO classes of Minbari: Religious and Warrior. In later seasons it became 3 classes of course, adding the Worker class.

pertaining to number 2 i thought that too, but it is always possible they did, it was pointed out that the minbari were destroying earths military moving in, then going back to the frontier worlds to hit the civvies and presumably the gropos.

as for number 3 i remember that being mentioned once, but i can't remember who said it or in what episode.

 

[Sindatur]

3. In the first season...and its mentioned a couple times...Delenn and Lennier say there are TWO classes of Minbari: Religious and Warrior. In later seasons it became 3 classes of course, adding the Worker class.

You think there's a possibility those remarks were just classist, and Delenn hadn't grown enough as a "person" yet to consider the Worker class as equals?

If not, then I guess the worker class had to be added to make room for Sheridan in "the One" and the Holy 3s of Minbari society.

 

[Recoil]

pertaining to number 2 i thought that too, but it is always possible they did, it was pointed out that the minbari were destroying earths military moving in, then going back to the frontier worlds to hit the civvies and presumably the gropos.

Nah I don't buy it. Because Sheridan destroys the Black Star, then he goes on that mission to whever to meet Lenon. Then when Lenon gets killed, Londo says the war continues for TWO YEARS. Sorry, but I don't think it would have taken the Minbari 2 years to get from the Asteroid belt in our solar system to Earth. I think they should have left the "Asteroid belt between Jupiter and Mars" out of the dialogue and just had it been any old asteroid belt and it would have been fine. But in my books, thats a continuity error.

You think there's a possibility those remarks were just classist, and Delenn hadn't grown enough as a "person" yet to consider the Worker class as equals?

If not, then I guess the worker class had to be added to make room for Sheridan in "the One" and the Holy 3s of Minbari society.

I think it was mentioned in a couple episodes. Legacies is probably the first one. I think its mentioned a couple times there. But I'm pretty sure Lennier says something about the TWO castes of Minbari in Points of Departure too. The times where its said, its really stressed, then like a season later, there is that third caste.

I think that JMS realized that two didnt make sense, since there were 9 on the council. But it was clearly a goof of some kind...

 

[hypatia]

You think there's a possibility those remarks were just classist, and Delenn hadn't grown enough as a "person" yet to consider the Worker class as equals?

If not, then I guess the worker class had to be added to make room for Sheridan in "the One" and the Holy 3s of Minbari society.

That is every fan's favorite explanation, and it's about the best you are going to get.

I mean, isn't it obvious that JMS just changed his mind?

It's not a high crime, you know. But I've yet to hear of a JMS quote saying "yes, that was a brilliant way of illustrating how the worker class was treated".

Personally, I just don't buy it.

I do think his way of doing things in the end was probably a lot better for the story's sake. And I'd hate to condemn a guy who really brought the idea of continuity to a whole new level in television science fiction.

So I say, give him a break.

 

[RMcD]

You think there's a possibility those remarks were just classist, and Delenn hadn't grown enough as a "person" yet to consider the Worker class as equals?

I think that's possible, and also I think in all the cases where that's said Delenn and Lennier are trying to explain how Minbari society works to outsiders. Although there are technically three castes, it's pretty clear that only two of them count when it comes to politics. The Minbari civil war, when it comes, is a two-sided conflict between the Religious and Warrior castes.

I sympathise because I do exactly the same thing when I'm trying to explain English politics to my foreign friends. In reality there are three mainstream political parties, but only two of them really count in practice, so I tend to simplify and describe it as a two-party system, even though technically there is a sizable third party that would hold the balance of power in a hung parliament. It's much easier to present it as a battle of two opposing idealogies.

Since that's all pretty OT I'll throw in another continuity gaffe. Discounting the obvious changes after the Gathering, the EA uniform redesign between S1 and S2 (red trim and flight wings) creates a possible continuity error when these feature in In the Beginning.

 

[Recoil]

I think you are missing the point. I thought the idea here was to point out (and granted, there aren't many) continuity ERRORS.

Lets face it, JMS isn't perfect. He made mistakes. So people are putting them here. Coming along and trying to explain them away (which is another way of saying - make up excuses for JMS as if he meant to do it) just doesn't accomplish anything.

You guys can say what you want about the caste thing. Sure fans like to make up a reason to explain how it "might" have been meant. But truthfully, it was a mistake. Pure and simple. It happens. This show probably was the best for continuity in all of television, but mistakes WERE made, so just live with them as goofs. Who cares...

/just not a live with my head buried in the sand kinda guy

 

[Ranger1]

I think you are missing the point. I thought the idea here was to point out (and granted, there aren't many) continuity ERRORS.

Lets face it, JMS isn't perfect. He made mistakes. So people are putting them here. Coming along and trying to explain them away (which is another way of saying - make up excuses for JMS as if he meant to do it) just doesn't accomplish anything.

You guys can say what you want about the caste thing. Sure fans like to make up a reason to explain how it "might" have been meant. But truthfully, it was a mistake. Pure and simple. It happens. This show probably was the best for continuity in all of television, but mistakes WERE made, so just live with them as goofs. Who cares...

/just not a live with my head buried in the sand kinda guy

this is all very true, i can say that i have seen probably every episode of every major scifi TV series since the fifties, and while there are many classics and my DVD collection will attest to my love for the likes of star trek, the twilight zone, the outer limits, BSG (old and new), buck rogers and many others, but B5 is the only i watch closely enough to spot these errors readily.

there are almost certainly fewer errors in B5 than in any other show ever, but as we all LOVE B5 we spot them, thankfully though it is an unconditional love and so we can easily forgive these errors. of course after all this is said the brilliance of well planned, wonderfully made TV has been proven beyond doubt

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

There was only one mention of two Minbari castes - it came in "Grail" and the speaker was Lennier. Now as it happens JMS replied to a message on the web at just around the time "Grail" was filming in which he states that there are three Minbari castes and names them. So I don't think this is an error or that he "added" the third caste later.

"Grail" originally aired in the U.S. in July 1994. It was production number 109 and would have shot around December of 1993.

From: STRACZYNSKI [Joe]
Subject: Yeah, fairly much, as far as it...
To: GENIE
Date: 12/25/1993 7:28:00 PM
No Thread

Yeah, fairly much, as far as it goes. There's some Jananese influence, as well as some early European influences, as well as middle Eastern influences. (There are three Minbari castes: the worker, warrior and religious castes.)

jms

Here's another from April 1994, 4 months before "Grail" aired, in which JMS casually refers to a "worker class" Minbari, indicating that their existance was known to the on-line community well in advance of the episode:

From: STRACZYNSKI [Joe]
Subject: Lennier is not in the cargo area...
To: GENIE
Date: 4/24/1994 7:47:00 PM
No Thread

Lennier is not in the cargo area during the beating, nor is he in BG during the negotiations. That's a Minbari of the worker class. (You can generally tell from the orange-ish smock-thingie they wear.) Sorry.

jms

That post refers to "Deathwalker", which had just aired in the U.S. It was shot as episode 113. JMS comment would seem to indicate that they had already established a different wardrobe for Worker Caste Minbari by that point, and that it had been used in previous episodes.

Clearly JMS had already conceivd the Worker Caste in season one, even if it remains technically possible that he invented them the day after "Grail" finished shooting.

I think Lennier omits the Workers because they either don't figure much in his thinking (the typical attitude of the Religious and Warriors which he is much more likely to need to outgrow than Delenn) or he knows that outsiders like Aldus are unlkely to have contact with them. (He is contrasting the level of cooperation the Religious caste will give Aldus's quest with that of the Warriors, so he may simply have been focused on who Aldous be speaking to, not cluttered up the discussion with details of Minbari culture that had nothing to do with Aldus's mission.) Delenn doesn't correct him (or at least doesn't do so in front of their guest) because to do so would cause Lennier to lose face and the point is a minor one. (As Delenn says with regard to concealing Aldus's request from the Warrior caste, "So we will not tell them, and spare them the confusion." That could equally apply to her not teling Aldus about the Worker caste.

BTW, although I agree that In the Beginning contradicts "Points of Departure", I don't think this is an error. JMS conciously decided to violate continuity because when it came time to depict the incident on-screen in the context of the TV movie - rather than in a passing reference in dialogue - it made more dramatic sense to do it that way. The same way Zathras's appearance in "War Without End" contradicts what was stated in "Babylon Squared" - for production reasons there wasn't the time or the money to shoot what the earlier episode called for, so JMS just fudged the whole thing and kept on going, trusting to the pace of the episode to carry the audience past the hiccup. But neither is technically an error, which is an accidental mistake like losing Delenn's original gown and having the sleeves mismatch, or Sheridan putting Jack the Ripper in the wrong end of London.

Regards,

Joe

 

[Recoil]

Joe,

I actually do think that he knew had all 3 Castes planned from the start. My point was that it was an oversight in filming that they didn't catch.

 

[hypatia]

Ah, well then. I stand corrected.

Odd he didn't make more of that, but I suppose you can't follow up on every subtle point, not realistically.

 

[Chris Springob]

There are a few discontinuities between "Babylon Squared" and "War Without End". There's a list of them here:

http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/countries/us/guide/061.html#NO

Also, there's an effects glitch in "No Compromises", where, when Garibaldi is in a starfury outside the station, the thrusters are firing on the wrong side of the ship, relative to what would be necessary to keep the ship stationary with respect to the window on the station. This is also explained in more detail on the Lurker's Guide page for that ep.

Also, I'm sure there must be one or two continuity errors that came about as a result of the changes to the show that came between The Gathering and the regular series....I just can't think of what they are right now.

(unless you count the changes in the makeup for Delenn and G'Kar)

 

[Chris Springob]

Also, here's a list of nitpicks for the show at nitpickers.com:

http://www.nitpickers.com/tv/repository.cgi?pg=s&sp=i&tt=3

Not all of them are valid, and some wouldn't fall under "continuity errors", but there are also a few good ones in there.

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

I actually do think that he knew had all 3 Castes planned from the start. My point was that it was an oversight in filming that they didn't catch.

That would have to be an "oversight" in writing, rehearsal, filming (several times: master shot, close up, close up, close up and probably at least two takes of each) and a review of the dailies (since they would have been able to reshoot the next day if they'd caught it.) Seems improbable to me. It wasn't an actor getting a single line wrong. The exchange runs like this:

Lennier explains that there are two Minbari castes, the Warriors and the Religious.

Lennier: "The warrior caste... would not understand,"

Delenn: "So we will not tell them, and spare them the confusion."

Aldus: "These two parts of your society. Do they ever agree on anything?"

Delenn: "Yes. And when they do, it is a terrible thing. A terrible force, as recent events have shown. Let us hope that it never happens again in our lifetime."

So the whole scene continues with a discussion of the "two" castes (the two "active" castes, who are relevant to Aldus's quest and to his later question.) That has to be deliberate, especially given that JMS didn't allow ad-libs on set. So either he invented the Worker Caste after the episode, forgot about them when he wrote the episode, or he deliberately had Lennier ignore them (and Delenn let the error slide) because that's simply what Lennier would have done as a proud member of the Religious Caste.

Regards,

Joe

 

[Recoil]

Well one way or another, its a goof. They make a big point about two castes in that episode, and we all know there are three.

The "well it was written that way intentionally because they wanted to show the worker caste is overlooked" story is pretty .... creative at best.

How can you demonstrate something like that, when you have never TOLD the viewers there IS one?

 

[GaribaldisHair]

I could have sworn JMS said that the asteroid belt thing was just something that he decided to change when it came to making ItB because it worked better that way.

That being the case, it is a little harsh to describe it as a continuity error.

Likewise, Zathras appearing the conference room in a flash in Babylon Squared and being discovered in a corridor in WWE. Again JMS acknowledged the change on ths basis that it worked better for the script the way it turned out.

In many ways B5's continuity errors stem from the fact that things are foreshadowed and referred to in scripts a long time before they actually have to show the event and when it comes do it JMS finds it just doesn't work the way it was originally going to.

I can live with that!