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Crusade: Behind The Scenes
- Thread starter vacantlook
- Start date
Republibot 3.0
Regular
Undoubtedly wise. You could pour through Flaming Carrot issues to get to the Jim Morrison stuff, but in the end, all you'd be left with are Flaming Carrot issues, and that's frankly not much. <G>
Just sayin' is all.
So how's the book?
babylonfan
Regular
The Crusade book has the following ISBNs:
ISBN-10: 0-9795393-8-2
ISBN-13: 978-0-9795393-8-1
thanks, now i'm just missing the ISBNs for
"Asked & Answered: J. Michael Straczynski Answers 5,296 Questions About Babylon 5 & Beyond: Part 3 - Part 5"
does anyone have those?
Republibot 3.0
Regular
Ok, so I got it, read it, and have already given it away. I was kind of disappointed by it. Yeah, it was exactly what it purported to be, and my disappointment was undoubtedly based on my insane desire for it to be more than that; the hope that it would answer at least some of the lingering questions, but it really didn't.
And in fact, I'm not even sure why I thought it would. I mean, there's no reason an actor would know anything about the long-range arc of his/her character, there's no reason to assume the costume director would know anything, there's no reason to assume the set designer would, either. So basically I went into it with a lot of hopes, and came out with a $40 charge on my card.
It's not a total wash - Richard Bigg's comments were interesting, one of the after-the-fact interviews was kind of interesting, and Janet Greek ragging on Gary Cole was surprising (Though she took most of it back later on).
Anyone else read it? What were your thoughts?
And in fact, I'm not even sure why I thought it would. I mean, there's no reason an actor would know anything about the long-range arc of his/her character, there's no reason to assume the costume director would know anything, there's no reason to assume the set designer would, either. So basically I went into it with a lot of hopes, and came out with a $40 charge on my card.
It's not a total wash - Richard Bigg's comments were interesting, one of the after-the-fact interviews was kind of interesting, and Janet Greek ragging on Gary Cole was surprising (Though she took most of it back later on).
Anyone else read it? What were your thoughts?
Recoil
Regular
I have bought all of the B5 Script/Quote/Voices books, but never even had a tiny desire to get this one. To me it was a big "whats the point?"
Behind the Scenes? I think we all heard as much as we wanted to about what happened behind the scenes from JMS and a few others while this was going on, and in the years afterward.
What more could this book tell me that I'd already heard? And does it even matter? The show died a quick death. Its gone. Not coming back. I've heard all the stories about Network involvement, etc. What more could this book possibly provide?
So no, I didn't get it, and never planned to. Not only did I think it wouldn't tell me anything new, I found myself not even caring if it did because it doesn't change anything.
Behind the Scenes? I think we all heard as much as we wanted to about what happened behind the scenes from JMS and a few others while this was going on, and in the years afterward.
What more could this book tell me that I'd already heard? And does it even matter? The show died a quick death. Its gone. Not coming back. I've heard all the stories about Network involvement, etc. What more could this book possibly provide?
So no, I didn't get it, and never planned to. Not only did I think it wouldn't tell me anything new, I found myself not even caring if it did because it doesn't change anything.
KoshN
Super Moderator
I have that insane desire as well. <shrug>
I haven't read it all the way through. Started, but stopped after reading page 26, because of what you said above ("....there's no reason an actor would know anything about the long-range arc of his/her character, there's no reason to assume the costume director would know anything, there's no reason to assume the set designer would, either.") and knowing how it ended (i.e. badly), and not wanting to go there. I skipped ahead a bit, and Janet Greek ragging on Gary Cole surprised me as well.
I'll read through it eventually. Right now, I have enough on my plate to keep 10 people busy.
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KoshN
Super Moderator
There isn't much of one, but it could give the chance to find out things that you didn't know before.
I just wish that JMS wouldn't have been so dead set against continuing Crusade in novels.
Republibot 3.0
Regular
I have that insane desire as well. <shrug>
I haven't read it all the way through. Started, but stopped after reading page 26, because of what you said above ("....there's no reason an actor would know anything about the long-range arc of his/her character, there's no reason to assume the costume director would know anything, there's no reason to assume the set designer would, either.") and knowing how it ended (i.e. badly), and not wanting to go there. I skipped ahead a bit, and Janet Greek ragging on Gary Cole surprised me as well.
I'll read through it eventually. Right now, I have enough on my plate to keep 10 people busy.
Oh, good. I'm glad to know it wasn't just me. Sometimes I come away from something with such a bad impression that I secondguess myself. "It really couldn't be that bad, could it? I must just be being really negative for some reason."
I know most folks haven’t read through B5Scrolls – and that’s most likely down to the colour scheme and layout – which is understandable (but a major undertaking to change at this point as I’ve moved on).
But John Copeland did touch on the reason why it is unlikely to get a detailed continuation of the story, in any format
Remember, although a follow-up story/series was in the back of his mind for some time, “Crusade” itself was a relatively late idea. He *probably* had the overall story bullet points laid down and would flesh out the details as the story developed.
It is genuinely unfortunate the show finished, but even if a novel or comic is created at some future point it will almost certainly not be what the tv series would have become as the fleshing out process would be effected by different things. B5 is a mjoar part of jms's career, but I think he's moved on to be honest, and that can be seen in how he now tends to post on facebook rather than the newsgroup, which is natural enough. As is his insistance of no more *cheap* stuff. Both actions which have been facilitated by his elevation to A-List status. Probably the worst thing to happen for any future B5, but also *possibly* the best as well. Only time will tell.
What I’ve never really understood though, given it’s a popular product, is why he doesn’t (or can’t) hand the writing reigns over to someone else – there’s other good authors and screenwriters out their!!?
But John Copeland did touch on the reason why it is unlikely to get a detailed continuation of the story, in any format
http://themadgoner.com/B5/B5Scrolls/B5Scrolls.htm#Screen1_04_3
Remember, although a follow-up story/series was in the back of his mind for some time, “Crusade” itself was a relatively late idea. He *probably* had the overall story bullet points laid down and would flesh out the details as the story developed.
It is genuinely unfortunate the show finished, but even if a novel or comic is created at some future point it will almost certainly not be what the tv series would have become as the fleshing out process would be effected by different things. B5 is a mjoar part of jms's career, but I think he's moved on to be honest, and that can be seen in how he now tends to post on facebook rather than the newsgroup, which is natural enough. As is his insistance of no more *cheap* stuff. Both actions which have been facilitated by his elevation to A-List status. Probably the worst thing to happen for any future B5, but also *possibly* the best as well. Only time will tell.
What I’ve never really understood though, given it’s a popular product, is why he doesn’t (or can’t) hand the writing reigns over to someone else – there’s other good authors and screenwriters out their!!?
Jan
Regular
It's not up to him, it's up to Warner Bros who own everything about B5 except the movie rights with JMS owns.
To say that “it’s not up to him” isn’t exactly accurate. Neither is the idea that Warner are the only ones who can decide on there being new B5 content. He’s pointed out a few times that Warner have approached him about new ideas – some fell through (apparently) some he didn’t like and vetoed. And some ideas and proposals never see the light of day – online to fans at least.
http://www.jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-17011
From 2003.
I guess some folks wouldn’t entertain a book, tv series, comic or coffee mug that’s not been created by joe himself – which is a fair enough viewpoint. But joe does have a lot of control over what happens (or not happens) in the B5 verse – that’s just a simple fact, and saying what you did is simplifying the set-up somewhat.
http://www.jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-17011
From 2003.
I guess some folks wouldn’t entertain a book, tv series, comic or coffee mug that’s not been created by joe himself – which is a fair enough viewpoint. But joe does have a lot of control over what happens (or not happens) in the B5 verse – that’s just a simple fact, and saying what you did is simplifying the set-up somewhat.
KoshN
Super Moderator
I think it's a combination of the following:
- What John Copeland said about "....it is also hard to make lightning strike twice in the same bottle."
- The last two B5 products fizzling even faster than Crusade did.
- JMS moving on, perhaps fearing to go back where the last three projects failed, i.e. not wanting to risk a fourth failure in a row in the B5 universe, and the possible negative backlash effect upon his newfound A-list status and career.
- JMS is becoming the monkey in the monkey/nut/jar scenerio.
- The more time goes on, the harder it will be to recreate the magic we all saw when we watched B5. The old team (cast, crew and effects people) are scattered at best, deceased at worst. Actors get older and less able to perform their old roles. We, the viewers, have changed. Sure, we still love B5 (and I'll still be wanting Crusade continued in some way, until they shovel the dirt on top of me.), but the chances that we'll be harder to please with a new B5 universe project get higher with each passing year.
- All of the the dunces in the entire world are in a confederacy against any new B5/Crusade project.
As for fans not accepting a book that has not been created by JMS, the three DelRey trilogies were not created by JMS. Sure, he supplied the outlines, but Keyes, David and Cavelos wrote the books.
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Jan
Regular
A little, perhaps, but not much. Suppose JMS was willing to let trusted authors write a new series of B5 tie-in books. Forget any questions of canonicity for now. Until and unless a publisher approaches WB with large wads of cash for a license first, it ain't gonna happen. Which means it ain't gonna happen because no publishers are interested. I suppose that now he's with DC comics, JMS could suggest to both DC and to WB that a new B5 comic would be cool, but he couldn't do more than that. If JMS wanted to see a series of B5 short stories written by writers he trusts, he'd need permission from WB (and did even back in the days when the short stories were coming out in Amazing and the B5 magazine).
When it comes to the movie rights, though, there he has control. He can decide to do a movie and if WB says no, he can take it anywere he wants to get it made.
See the difference? Yes, he has a lot of control over what happens in the B5 universe but he can only initiate something happening in one specific instance.
Jan
Was the Lost Tales a failure? I know many folks had problems with it and things like LoTR, though if we’re being honest, a good deal of those complaints revolved around the quality of the writing.
Personally I didn’t view TLT negatively (either story), and the indications were it made money for the studio and everyone else concerned. Though I can definitely see where a lack of cash was impacting on things – but it was far from terminal, and would have become far less of an issue if the things were being produced, as suggested, with two or three releases a year with budgets around the 3 to 5 million range (the numbers flying around at the time).
Many of the start-up costs (contracts and practical concerns) are largely addressed after the first one, sets, costumes much of the CGI models (and even animation), etc. is reusable. The CGI, prosthetic and wardrobe elements would grow with each instalment. It would have become almost like a stretched out tv series in that respect – one dvd is finished another immediately starts up. To call a halt after the first one, after much of the hard work had been done, was an unfortunate decision. And it was jms who made it.
Warner wanted to do more, the fans wanted to see more. So why did it not happen? Was it because Warner couldn’t find any fresh new writers or established talented ones. Or does it lay more in the area that joe touched on in the quote I used earlier. i.e. by contract he has a say, and if it doesn’t involve him it doesn’t happen.
But then again, it is his ‘verse and if he decides to call a halt to any further filmed production (other than a big budget movie which – as you say – he alone holds the rights to) then that’s cool (genuinely).
But it is/was his decision. Not Warners.
Personally I didn’t view TLT negatively (either story), and the indications were it made money for the studio and everyone else concerned. Though I can definitely see where a lack of cash was impacting on things – but it was far from terminal, and would have become far less of an issue if the things were being produced, as suggested, with two or three releases a year with budgets around the 3 to 5 million range (the numbers flying around at the time).
Many of the start-up costs (contracts and practical concerns) are largely addressed after the first one, sets, costumes much of the CGI models (and even animation), etc. is reusable. The CGI, prosthetic and wardrobe elements would grow with each instalment. It would have become almost like a stretched out tv series in that respect – one dvd is finished another immediately starts up. To call a halt after the first one, after much of the hard work had been done, was an unfortunate decision. And it was jms who made it.
Warner wanted to do more, the fans wanted to see more. So why did it not happen? Was it because Warner couldn’t find any fresh new writers or established talented ones. Or does it lay more in the area that joe touched on in the quote I used earlier. i.e. by contract he has a say, and if it doesn’t involve him it doesn’t happen.
But then again, it is his ‘verse and if he decides to call a halt to any further filmed production (other than a big budget movie which – as you say – he alone holds the rights to) then that’s cool (genuinely).
But it is/was his decision. Not Warners.
KoshN
Super Moderator
In that there will be no more of them, yes.
The problems I had with B5:LotR were with the writing (what was necessary to make that story happen, the characters and dialogue) and the lack of the familiar CGI (all the stuff I was used to seeing, B5 in close-ups, and rotating, and CGI mistakes like the Minbari Nial fighters flying aerodynamically, which is backwards for them, but these effects people either didn't know that or nobody paid attention to detail..).
One of the problems I had with B5 - The Lost Tales was with the writing (e.g. Galen: "....a thousand vast war machines are warping into normal space, each of them armed with terrible engines of destruction, capable of devastation never seen before, until right now." It should have been "jumping out of hyperspace" not "warping".), evidently both he and JMS forgot about the Shadow and especially Vorlon Planetkillers. Both of these guys have SEEN planetkillers. What'd they both do, suddenly develop amnesia?!? Maybe JMS did.
I also had problems with minimalist look of things, the lack of familiar sets, the New York destruction scene where the CGI beams looked like they weren't doing much of anything, the scenes that made the station look less populated than B5 in Sleeping in Light was (when it had only a skeleton/shutdown crew.). Hell, the New York destruction CGI beams were the most feckless beams I've ever seen. Their biggest effect in the scene was the heat and wind that was mainly noticable from Sheridan's grimace and the wind effect on his hair. Look at the scene closely. What did you actually SEE the beams do? Almost nothing. Sure, they were big, but they did almost nothing in the scene.
OTOH, the scene from 2301 where the Centauri were attacking the Warlock destroyers was excellent, but oh so brief. The scenes with Sheridan and Prince Vintari in the starfuries were also done well. The scene with Lochley and the priest in the docking bay felt false to me, sort of flat, 2D, like it was unfinished and still needed work on the background (maybe the texturing, the skins), and the lighting on the characters and the background to make seem more like the characters were actually in that environment. Ditto for the scene with Lochley and the priest in her quarters, it also looked flat to me. Earlier, when the ship carrying the priest entered B5, THAT scene was good.
Yeah, it made sooo much money for the studio that they wanted to make another one for the same shoestring budget.
That's the understatement of the century.
Try $3 million, not $3 million to $5 million. $3 million is what WB offered for the second DVD and JMS turned 'em down. Then factor in that all of the CGI and sets, and most of the wardrobe and props were gone. What did they have to even be able to reuse from the first B5:TLT DVD, the CGI they made for the DVD? The whole thing was minimalist. They had almost no sets. What did they have, a piece of a wall and a doorway? They're lucky they found that starfury cockpit. What did they have for Sheridan's command room on IA-1, two red chairs?
That would have been true IF they'd had a decent startup budget for construction of the sets, CGI, props, wardrobe, etc., or had a lot of stuff leftover from B5 and Crusade, and it didn't have to have all of that come out of the $3 million movie budget. Crusade benefitted from B5 and "A Call to Arms." For everything after Crusade, almost all of that stuff was gone. IMHO, destroying all of those Crusade sets, including the newly elaborate ones built during the first hiatus, _u]was a crime.[/u] If they were still around, it'd be much, much more likely that Crusade could be restarted or at least wrapped up in a TV miniseries or series ov TV movies. But no, those morons scrap, lose or sell everything.
Because Warner Brothers was so damned CHEAP! They lost, sold or destroyed the B5 and Crusade legacy of stuff that had been built up over the years and then gave JMS no money to rebuild it. It was a Warner Brothers screw-up, and they should have manned-up and given time and a budget to have it recreated, but they didn't. They wanted money for nothing and chicks for free.
No, it's because Warner Brothers is CHEAP. They're TIGHTWADS. They make Jack Benny look like a philanthropist.
It was Warner Brothers fault for not allowing an adequate budget to make up for the problems that THEY CREATED.
:brickwall:
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Jade Jaguar
Regular
Well, JMS better be careful what he posts on Facebook then. They claim they own everything everyone posts on it. I was going to sign up, but when I read that in the service agreement, I declined. It would be an interesting civil case. Facebook v JMS and WB, for the rights to any ideas on B5 he might post...
:wtf:
Jan
Regular
It doesn't really matter what Facebook claims, I'm at least 85% certain that federal law has already addressed the issue and copyright remains with the poster.Well, JMS better be careful what he posts on Facebook then. They claim they own everything everyone posts on it. I was going to sign up, but when I read that in the service agreement, I declined. It would be an interesting civil case. Facebook v JMS and WB, for the rights to any ideas on B5 he might post...
At any rate, JMS generally gives permission for his posts to be reposted so the only issue would probably be in cases like the one several years back where somebody 'wrote' a book that mainly consisted of his posts.
Jan
Funny thought...back in the day, and even now I believe, there are email lists that fans sign up for to get JMS' posts mailed to them. Sort of like re-tweeting today.
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