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Crusade: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly
- Thread starter dreamer
- Start date
Cell
Regular
How was the music completely out of place? Crusade was a completely different show from B5. Sure, it was in the same universe, but it had different characters, a different feel, tone and atmosphere and dealt with completely different subject matter. As good as Franke's scores were, they would have been completely out of place on Crusade.
KoshN
Super Moderator
If you can't find Summoning Light (Book 2), Jeanne Cavelos emailed me yesterday that she has about two more of those left that she's willing to sell. She also has a couple of the Hardcover Omnibus Editions (contains the entire trilogy) that she might be willing to sell. If interested, PM me and I'll give you her email address (It's changed.).
Out of place in that the music was small, tinny, confusing, garbarled, and claustophobic. Chen's music did nothing to evoke emotion or empathy to any given scene(s) nor did it properly accentuate tense or stressful moments, sweeping vistas, etc. Sure it was completely different show, but the overall setting was the same: ship/station, space/space; long distances/long distances; multiple races, far away places, etc.
Cell
Regular
No, it was completely different. I can tell you a story about a Jewish family in a WWII concentration camp, and then I can tell you a story about German guards in a WWII concentration camp. Those two stories take place in the same exact setting, but because of the difference in point of view, characters, tone and atmosphere they are completely different stories. That is the case with Babylon 5 and Crusade, they may take place in the same universe and they may both deal with similar concepts, but they are completely different shows in tone, setting, characters, point of view, atmosphere and attitude.
As for the music evoking emotion or adding to scenes, I disagree with that. I thought Chen's music worked well with the direction of the series and evoked emotion when emotion needed to be evoked, and stayed muted when emotion didn't need to be evoked.
dreamer
Member
Some argue that a B5sque "score" wouldnt've worked with Crusade since they're different shows. But if you think about the first season of B5 when things weren't that... big, and were more of one-shot nature, it worked fine there. Granted, I do like to connect Franke's metallic percussions and synths with the hunk in space that B5 station is, and in that light Crusade required something complitely different.
While Chen's stuff might work and appease some, to me... it's technically awful. It's not complitely useless, but the composition just isn't good enough to forget about the form of it. It's awkward and sticks out like a sore thumb.
But yeah, I've heard worse. Stuff that's technically top notch but fails in the most important front: substance.
While Chen's stuff might work and appease some, to me... it's technically awful. It's not complitely useless, but the composition just isn't good enough to forget about the form of it. It's awkward and sticks out like a sore thumb.
But yeah, I've heard worse. Stuff that's technically top notch but fails in the most important front: substance.
GaribaldisHair
Regular
Strawman. That was never the argument for or against the music in Crusade. JMS came right out and said at the time that he had hired Chen because he wanted music that was completely different from the music in Babylon 5, because it was a different show.
The value of Chen's music in Crusade is a matter of subjective taste to a great degree. I (and others) love it, you (and others) hate it. Fine. That, however, does not make it technically awful, and to talk about it "appeasing" some people is to attempt to deny that it has any value whatsoever (another subjective judgement) and serves only the purpose of having music there because music should be there.
His music to A Call to Arms wasn't brilliant (although it was decent), but he was getting better and better through Crusade's first season as he got to grips with the rhythm and tone of the show ... in much the same way as Christopher Franke got better and better through B5's first season as he got into the rhythm and tone of that show.
KoshN
Super Moderator
sp.: garbled.
While I don't like 100% of Chen's music in Crusade, and I am NOT a musician, I disagree with your overall comment. Sometimes the music was simplistic, and sometimes its volume stepped on the actors' lines, but for the most part, I think it gave just the right alien, foreign world feel to the show.
I did for me, sometimes. For example:
emotion/empathy:
"The Well of Forever" - when Galen speaks while laying Isabelle's ashes to rest.
"The Needs of Earth" - the music playing in the background when Gideon walks away from Dureena's quarters at the end.
"The Path of Sorrows" - when Matheson gives the message (purportedly sent by Isabelle from beyond the grave) to Galen, and Galen considers it and then rejects it.
"Appearances and Other Deceits" - when Gideon is recording condolences for Mrs. Greenberg and then Mr. Arkham.
properly accentuate tense or stressful moments, sweeping vistas:
"The Memory of War" - Dureena observing the twin sunset from on high.
"The Memory of War" - Dureena running across the vanishing force field bridge.
"The Path of Sorrows" - when Galen is about to attack the alien with a fireball.
"Patterns of the Soul" - when Tim kidnaps Chambers, and Dureena attempts to help her.
That doesn't mean that the music shouldn't set a different tone for this new show and its characters.
Jan
Regular
I agree. Looking back at it, Christopher Franke's music in the first season was every bit as obtrusive as Chen's in Crusade but it evolved into a wonderful complement to the writing and acting. It's a shame we weren't given the chance to see the same evolution in Chen's work.
Jan
Cell: Not to be argumentative, my brother, but your WWII-B5 comparison is flawed; using the dynamic of guards vs prisoners, I'd agree with you if Crusade were filmed from the perspective of the Drakh. In such a case, you'd have 2 completely different sets of protagonists. However, that's not the case; thus I stand by my by statement.
Dreamer: I agree with you: the music sticks out like a sore thumb. Because of it's confused composition, it drew my attention away from the scene. In tense moments, it sounded lite-hearted and cartoony at times.
GaribaldisHair: You're right: to each his own.
Cell
Regular
The protagonists in B5 and Crusade are completely different. On B5 you had dignitaries, politicians and soldiers that were at the crux of every issue and their actions shaped the entire universe. The cast of Crusade is much smaller, they aren't world shapers, the world doesn't change because of their decisions, as a matter of fact there is very little they can actually affect because of how low on the totem pole they are. In the end sure, they will affect the world, but that is more through sheer force of will and extraordinary action than it is through simply having the power to do so like the characters on B5 do. It's a case of the powerful and those without real power.
KoshN
Super Moderator
Still, I wish they would have named it officially, "Babylon 5: Crusade" or somehow putting "Babylon 5" in the title. It'd make it easier to look up and not get hits on everything else that uses Crusade in the title, and having to sift through all the stuff that doesn't apply.
No doubt.
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A_M_Swallow
Regular
Crusade was like a mirror version of the original Star Trek.
A 5 year mission to search out old life and old civilisation. To raid medicine cabinets that have not been raided before.
A 5 year mission to search out old life and old civilisation. To raid medicine cabinets that have not been raided before.
Jade Jaguar
Regular
:guffaw::guffaw::guffaw: :thumbsup:
I liked Chen's music, in part for it's great distance from Franke's, which I also liked. I don't think Chen's music was ever "confused." It often bordered on the chaotic, but only when appropriate. I like it that he wasn't afraid to take such risks. If the music was ever "obtrusive," that was at least in part the fault of whoever did the audio mixing.
KoshN
Super Moderator
The thing is, liking or disliking Chen's CRUSADE music is all terribly subjective. Chen's CRUSADE music is a bit of an acquired taste. When I first watched CRUSADE, I wasn't used to the music and didn't like it much, probably because it was different and wasn't Franke. Now, many viewings later, 99.9% of the music "fits" CRUSADE, setting the right tone, and I don't consciously notice the music, except in the 0.1% of the time when it's sour, discordant and bad (e.g. "Ruling from the Tomb" - the baby crying, dog barking junk at the end). I remember once where the volume stepped on, I believe, Eilerson's lines, but I'll be damned if I can remember WHERE it was. I'd have to rewatch all of CRUSADE to pick out the bad music or sounds, but real life and WORK keeps intruding (like now.). Gotta go.
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Jade Jaguar
Regular
True of all music, and to some extent, all art. It seems to me that there is less of an intellectual process involved in whether you like music, or not, that there is with other art forms. It is more directly perceived. It takes more of an intellectual process to appreciate other art forms. Thus, one's expectations, or "set," in the psychological sense, make a huge difference with music. So, if one likes, and expects, Franke, but gets something 180 degrees from that, they are disposed not to like it, no matter how good it may be.
GaribaldisHair
Regular
No question ... it just bugs the hell out of me that the reaction becomes "this is rubbish" rather than "I don't like this" too often.
After briefly skimming these pages, I guess I'm the only one who liked Dr. Chambers. I thought she was one of the more interesting characters.
Galen could be annoying at times -- almost Shatneresque, but I like the idea of techno-mages. I never really liked Dureena.
But why the dislike of Chambers?
Galen could be annoying at times -- almost Shatneresque, but I like the idea of techno-mages. I never really liked Dureena.
But why the dislike of Chambers?
KoshN
Super Moderator
Why the dislike of Chambers? Not a very good actress. Wooden lines and wooden delivery, like Lochley/Scoggins, and Senator McQuate (in War Zone). A lot of the time, they did not speak naturally, like they were laboring over getting the words out, and so it felt like what they were saying wasn't their own words. Basically, I could see them trying to act, and not being natural. BTW, I found Mr. Ames (also in War Zone) to be a much better actor than Tim Thomerson (Sen. McQuate). I found Dureena much more natural 95% of the time. I never found Galen annoying, I never even found Eilerson annoying. Matheson could be a bit dull at times but he was rapidly getting better. Gideon was always interesting.
The good actors BECOME the characters. It's like they're immersed in the story themselves, are wearing the characters skin, and are thinking of themselves/visualizing themselves AS the characters. That's what a good actor projects. A bad actor is one you see struggling/floundering, one that acts like they have cotton balls in their mouth as they try to get the words out, and you cannot suspend disbelief and accept them as the character. For me, that described Lochley/Scoggins and Chambers/Holden 90% of the time.
If you want to see Scoggins do a great job as Lochley, go watch B5's "Day of the Dead" and "The River of Souls."
B5_Obsessed
Regular
In all fairness, JMS gave full and fair warning about the hiring of Chen, a known experimental artist, and that doing so was intended to give Crusade a very exotic and alien feel and separate it artistically from B5. Of course, even knowing this may not have been sufficient preparation to actually hear Chen in action. I found his music very interesting to listen to but must also concede that in terms of drama, it rarely served the action taking place on the screen. Whereas Franke could squeeze a tear out of you with his choral arrangements, Chen's music was often cold and clinical.
