Crusade vs. Technomage Trilogy (spoilers)

[Recoil]

*** Ok this will probably contain some Crusade spoilers as well as Technomage Trilogy spoilers, so if you dont wanna know what they are, dont read on. ***

Ok, so what is established in the Technomage Trilogy is that the Mages got their tech from the Shadows a thousand years ago, and their circle has had an agreement with them ever since. That agreement is how they get their tech when they have new members, they cant actually MAKE it themselves as it seems. That secret was the main reason they left known space when the Shadow war was coming.

Crusade, in 2 of the 3 unfilmed scripts, was about to take a turn in this direction. JMS has eluded to the fact that in those unfilmed scripts the main story arc would start to present itself. In that script we find the origin of the Shadow/Hybrid ship to be of EARTH ALLIANCE design, in one of their covert/skunkworks kind of programs (or so it seems). We also find humans being experimented on who have some personal Shadow tech. The human major of the station says that just as Excalibur was backwards engineered from Vorlon technology, Earth was working in secret for years backwards engineering Shadow tech as well. He mentions that they know Galen has shadow tech, that all the mages do.

THIS is where it was first meant to be discovered where the mages got their tech from. My question is this:

Was the technomage/shadow issue to be one of the driving components of the series? We also did see a division of EA (as far as we know) who could become a problem as well. But if it was indeed supposed to be about origins of the mages, leftover shadow tech and the like, then that poses my final question:

Was most of the main plot of Crusade sort of covered in the mage trilogy? Obviously the mage trilogy takes place YEARS before Crusade. At that point us, the reader, knows the mages secret, but the rest of the B5 galaxy does not.

Any thoughts on this little area of discussion?

------------------
'I don't believe in the no-win scenario' - JTK

 

[bakana]

Not enough Meat for that to be it.

The info in the Technomage trilogy would fill up maybe half a dozen episodes or so as far as Crusade was concerned.
What about the Rest of the 4 years?

Besides, JMS hasn't given up on Crusade yet, so he'd hardly give the story away in the books.



------------------
Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
At best, it will break your heart.
At worst, it will get you dead."

 

[whitestar90]

All very plausible as the scipts mentioned

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black>people that were black similar to the machine people </font></td></tr></table>


So the question is how far have the humans come in understanding shadow tech...

------------------
"When it is time, come to this place, call our name, we will be here" -Walkers of Sigma957

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

When JMS wrote the outline for the Technomage novels, Crusade was either gearing up or already in production. The assumption was that they'd be in S2 or S3 by the time the final book was published, so it would be "old news."

As others have noted, the Technomage books only show the Mage side of things, up through the end of the Shadow War. Apart from one obvious fact, they don't tell us much about what others are doing by 2267 and 68, when the arc would really be kicking into high gear. The books are to Crusade a bit like what In the Beginning is to B5. Knowing how the Earth-Minbar conflict came to be illuminates the later story, but it hardly tells us how the Shadow War would end, or what would come after.

Regards,

Joe

------------------
Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division
joseph-demartino@att.net

 

[eirik]

If only a handful of people in EA are involved in or aware of the Shadow tech reverse engineering efforts, I can see how those people might see themselves as acquiring tremendous power (figurative meaning) from exploiting this technology. This could lead to chaos and conflict; all kinds of plot threads.

Also, if all Shadow tech has some kind of programming integrated into it, what if the reverse engineering replicates the tech too well. Without understanding the tech's programming or even knowing of its existance, the tech could turn against them, subsume them, or worse still, others, such as the Drakh, who may know enough about the programming, could wait for the EA folks to build a large amount of the tech and then somehow assume some control over the tech and turn it against the humans and others. Also, the 'Hand' could play a role in subverting the Shadow tech too.

There's much interesting material to work with. I love it!

Eirik

------------------
It never ends; it only changes!

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Also, if all Shadow tech has some kind of programming integrated into it, what if the reverse engineering replicates the tech too well.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No more calls, please. We have a winner!

Now ask yourself this - What if the cure for the plague that would have been found in the second season of Crusade is derived, even at second or third hand, from ShadowTech (tm)? Hmmm....

Regards,

Joe

------------------
Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division
joseph-demartino@att.net

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Joseph DeMartino:

Now ask yourself this - What if the cure for the plague that would have been found in the second season of Crusade is derived, even at second or third hand, from ShadowTech (tm)? Hmmm....

Regards,

Joe

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmm, it would seem to be the perfect cure, but wait, the crew of the Excalibur think differently...


------------------
Life's a song you don't get to rehearse
And every single verse
Can make it that much worse.
So give me something to sing about...

[This message has been edited by Happy Phantom (edited January 29, 2002).]

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Galen would know about the side effect. He has been through it himself.

I am not sure how the telepaths and the shadow technology would get on.


------------------
Andrew Swallow

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AndrewSwallow:
I am not sure how the telepaths and the shadow technology would get on.


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This raises an interesting point. Does anyone else see the symetry here.

Both the Shadows and Vorlons used organic technology, though in different ways. Both of these older races made their "ultimate weapon" by merging their own brand of organic-technology with the younger races. The Shadows have the Mages, the Vorlons have the Telepaths.

Suddenly, when you look at it this way, the parrellels start to jump out.

It would have been great to see Galen and Matheson togehter after they saw the parellel.

* raises fist *

Damn You TNT!! Damn You!!!

------------------
Never use the expression "I've got your six" to a Centauri, unless, of course, you mean it.

 

[Deviot]

This thread got me thinking more. Like in the unfilmed script where galen finds those people/creatures with all that black stuff on them...Galen blew it all up.

Due to the fact that to make allot of the shadow tech they need a living body to consume as seen in technomage books. Razel seemed to enjoy her work there LOL

Anyway if the humans are using other humans or aliens to make there tech that would make galen that mad....

 

[A_M_Swallow]

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by gandalfbmg:
<font color=yellow>
This raises an interesting point. Does anyone else see the symetry here. </font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>

Yes. I also noticed that the books went out of their way to give the Techno-mages the same powers as telepaths. This suggests that the teeps and the mages are due to fight.

Galen is the super-mage, Lyta is the super-teep. Any sign of Lyta gaining the equivalent of shields and a spell of destruction?

 

[Mondo Londo]

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Yes. I also noticed that the books went out of their way to give the Techno-mages the same powers as telepaths. This suggests that the teeps and the mages are due to fight.

Galen is the super-mage, Lyta is the super-teep. Any sign of Lyta gaining the equivalent of shields and a spell of destruction? <hr></blockquote>
Well, she's already shown significant telekinetic powers, being able to flick open the shackles, destroy the camera in the brig, etc. I'm not sure she had any limits; though she may not have lived long enough to figure that all out. It appeared that one limit was any ability to control Sheridan.

 

[LightNZ]

"You're not the only one who's been touched by the vorlons"

 

[ShadowmageGalen]

One thing about the Teeps and mages. Although I do consider them counterparts to each other, the trilogy left the impression that the teeps would have the upper hand. The crazy P-12 Elizar had with him fried the elder mage's brain even when he tried to counter her probes. And the mages warned against the teeps on at least one occasion. Galen might be able to react fast enough to counter because of what happened to him, but most mages probably couldn't.

Plus telepaths have power in greater numbers.

To me what would be interesting, since we have seen the shadows integrate a teep into a shadow vessel and merge the tech, how about a teep mage? Now that would be someone to be afraid of.

SmG

 

[KoshN]

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by LightNZ:
<font color=yellow>"You're not the only one who's been touched by the vorlons" </font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>

That's because he'd carried a piece of Kosh (for a prolonged period of time, <font color=orange>Interludes and Examinations-August 2260</font color=orange> to <font color=orange>Falling Toward Apotheosis-February 2261</font color=orange>). Maybe the Kosh fragment changed him a bit while it was in his head.

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Telepaths were created as Vorlon weapons. Technomages were created as Shadow weapons. To some extent, both chose to ignore their creators, but the mages were fewer, more decisive and better informed. Presumably their capabilities are about equal.

Let us compare:

A mage can use probes, sensors and communication spells to sense things distant, small or invisible. A telepath can feel things which cannot be seen with eyes (or less advanced technology). There are some things which only telepaths see. And some things which only technomages see.

A technomage can attack, defend, build and communicate with thought. When technomages cooperate to build intricate technology, their power is multiplied. Their control is multiplied when they let their tech form a place of power. Telepaths can do the same, with slight differences. To enhance their power, they must work together with another telepath.

Telepaths can deceive or force another to do their bidding. Technomages prefer deception, but they also know some spells which almost circumvent free will. Which is a worse violation, a sleeper personality or the spell of love?

Both can readily deceive and mislead. A telepath can deceive beings but often fails with machines, especially Shadow machines. A technomage can easily deceive machines, but often fails with beings, especially telepathic beings.

In the end, they are equal but opposite. Telepaths are the Vorlon idea of how younger races should evolve. Technomages are their Shadow equivalent.

 

[LightNZ]

there are powerful telepaths and powerful mages
and there are not so powerful telepaths and not so powerful mages

 

[A_M_Swallow]

In "The Path of Sorrows" the girl teep was originally going to be Lyta. The script mentioned that Lyta was surrounded by a glow - similar to super-telepath Ironheart's energy shield from "Mindwar"?

The script also suggested that Lyta destroyed the Psi base by exploding. This does not make sense, Lyta is not suicidal However, if Lyta released a burst of energy that destroyed everything but herself and Lennier - that makes sense.

My example of the telepath equivalent of shields and the Spell of Destruction.

Any others?

 

[KoshN]

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by A_M_Swallow:
<font color=yellow>In "The Path of Sorrows" the girl teep was originally going to be Lyta. The script mentioned that Lyta was surrounded by a glow - similar to super-telepath Ironheart's energy shield from "Mindwar"?

The script also suggested that Lyta destroyed the Psi base by exploding. </font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>


It did??? Did you actually see a script, the version that had Lyta in it?



<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by A_M_Swallow:
<font color=yellow> This does not make sense, Lyta is not suicidal However, if Lyta released a burst of energy that destroyed everything but herself and Lennier - that makes sense.</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>

You mean she'd release a burst of energy (like the explosion we saw) and have both her and Lennier inside her shields? But JMS says that they both died in the Telepath Crisis. So what happened? Did everybody just assume they both died in the explosion, and JMS really would have had them survive it?

Man, I'd love to see the original script.

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

My opinion: if both were in a situation where they were assumed to die, and twenty years later both are still assumed dead, they are dead.

Just like Kell (a mage of great capabilities and experience, the leader of the Circle) failed when surprised, Lyta could also fail. In fact, she could fail easier. Despite her great abilities, Lyta seemed to have lacking self-control. She was occasionally quite rash and acted without consideration. Telepathy does not protect from errors. Beings of far greater experience made fatal errors. Even beings who lived to fight went down when surprised (Shadows on Centauri Prime). Even beings who lived for order and control, hiding themselves in thick armor (Ulkesh) misjudged, got confident and got fried.

That Lyta needed the assistance of someone without any telepathic capability in a Psi-Corps base... it suggests that something was wrong. That she needed to concentrate where fighting should have been child's play suggests that something was wrong? Sleepers, anyone? Or perhaps the Shadow device neutralizing technomage implants had its opposite -- a device neutralizing telepathic ability.