Deathwalker

[Galahad]

Why did the vorlon dreadnought miss Deathwalker's ship with it's first shot? Was there a reason or was it a cgi glitch.

Another thing, do you think that the vorlons nuked the Dilgar's sun? The only reason I ask is that jms once made a point that every race was involved in some way with both the vorlons and shadows. I think the Windswords were in league with the Shadows. Why? The protection of J'Hadur, and the technologies she developed would have promoted war and growth through chaos. This is why I think the vorlons showed up pretty quick at the end. It didn't break their rules of engagement to fry J'hadur as she wasn't actually a Shadow, yet they have every reason from their perspective to nuke her.

If the Dilgar were Shadow allies (experimentation/promotion of chaos) the Vorlon might have wiped them out. You know... like opening jump points in the Dilgar sun on a regular basis.

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Back when I was a kid in Sunday School, Father Minkowski once said: "Given the crucifixion was a terrible thing for anyone to endure, if you could go back in time 2200 years, would you prevent the crucifixion of Christ?" Well after a heated debate, we all agreed the answer was no. The crucifixion was necessary to redeem the world. - Lt. John Matheson "The Needs of Earth"

"We live for the One. We die for the One!"

 

[admiraldave]

The ship had just exited hyperspace, so it was still locking on the the ship. The first shot was a blind shot.

Admiral Dave

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[whitestar90]

The Dilgar might have been the shadows pawns because the Vorlons destroyed her as Kosh put it "You are not ready for immortality" an as we know that the whole civilizations would be used just so others could live forever it would've been utter chaos....

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"When it is time, come to this place, call our name, we will be here" -Walkers of Sigma957

 

[Galahad]

Blind Shot?

Now wouldn't the series have been a whole lot different if that blind shot just happened to hit that grey/blue rotating insignificant object infront of the cruiser LOL!

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Back when I was a kid in Sunday School, Father Minkowski once said: "Given the crucifixion was a terrible thing for anyone to endure, if you could go back in time 2200 years, would you prevent the crucifixion of Christ?" Well after a heated debate, we all agreed the answer was no. The crucifixion was necessary to redeem the world. - Lt. John Matheson "The Needs of Earth"

"We live for the One. We die for the One!"

 

[solaris5]

Windswords? As far as I know that's a warrior caste clan.....

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I am Yu Lau! I am nobody's bitch! You are mine!

 

[Demonn]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> I think the Windswords were in league with the Shadows. Why? The protection of J'Hadur, and the technologies she developed would have promoted war and growth through chaos. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Wind Swords are the fiercest clan of the Minbari Warrior caste. We provided shelter to Jha'dur while she produced weapons for us, that's all. She got to live a little bit longer and we got some new toys to play with.

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A proud member of the Wind Swords.
"War is life and death is the only true peace."

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

About Dilgar and Shadows...

Well, the Dilgar would've made really good Shadow allies... but their invasion was around 2230, when the Shadows were still in hibernation...

As for Vorlons blowing up their sun - not likely, since the instability of their sun was what actually started the Dilgar on the road of conquest!
They noticed their sun was going to blow pretty soon, and decided that they needed a new homeworld. And since they thought that other races would disapprove of them grabbing planets (and there were no unoccupied suitable planets they could find), they decided they would need to conquer a large empire to fight off anyone who would endanger them. It almost worked, too, if not for these damned humans again...

As for the first missing shot of the Vorlon Cruiser... who says it missed? Who knows what it was aiming at? Just becuase we didn't see it hit anything doiesn't mean it couldn't have toased, say, a stealthed spy probe or something... or maybe warned off a phased ShadowShip (since at the time of Jha'Dur's reapperance the Shadows were already active...)

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"ShadowScout"
Roman Alexander

"Go on, watch out for Shadows - we'll watch you right back!"

What do you want?
ShadowShips!

 

[bakana]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> "You will fall upon one another like wolves. It'll make what we did pale by comparison.
The billions who live forever will be a testimony to my work, and the billions who are murdered to buy that immortality will be the continuance of my work.
Not like us? You will Become us.
That's my monument, Commander."

Jha'dur [Deathwalker] in Babylon 5: "Deathwalker"


"You are not ready for immortality."

Kosh to Sinclair in Babylon 5: "Deathwalker"

"Mollari. What did he say, really?"
"He said .. that we are both damned."
"Well. It's a small enough price to pay for immortality."

Refa and Londo in Babylon 5: "The Coming of Shadows" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Kosh destroyed Deathwalker for exactly the reason he stated.
Remember, the REAL purpose of the Vorlons was to safeguard and guide the younger races in evolving to something approaching Equality with the Vorlons.


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> "There are beings in the universe billions of years older than either of our races.
Once, long ago, they walked among the stars like giants, vast, timeless. Taught the younger races, explored beyond the rim, created great empires, but to all things, there is an end. Slowly, over a million years, the First Ones went away.
Some passed beyond the stars never to return.
Some simply disappeared."

Delenn in Babylon 5:"In the Shadow of Z'ha'dum"

"There are beings in the universe billions of years older than any of our races. They walked among the stars like giants, vast, timeless.
They created great empires, taught the new races, explored beyond the rim.
The oldest of the ancients are the Shadows. We have no other name for them."

Delenn in Babylon 5:"Matters of Honor" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Note the common thread??
Taught the younger races

This is what both the Vorlons and Shadows were Supposed to be doing.
Kosh remembered this.
And, Kosh knew that, if we gained Immortality too soon, we Would destroy ourselves.
Deathwalker was right. That serum would have touched off a war that would only have ended with everyone either Dead or Enslaved to whoever had control of the serum.

Evolution would have come to a Dead Halt.
Something neitehr the Vorlons NOR the Shadows would have accepted.
One or the other of them would have acted to destroy the serum and anyone who knew how to manufacture it.
By destroying Deathwalker, Kosh prevented the later death of Hundreds, maybe Millions, depending on just what action the Shadows might have taken to make sure the serum was Gone along with all trace of the formula.

Kosh acted with surgical precision by striking at exactly the correct moment.



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The 3 most common elements in the Universe:
Hydrogen, Greed, Stupidity!

 

[A_M_Swallow]

Kosh may also have been taking revenge for his poisoning in "The Gathering". Deathwalker prepared the poison.

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Andrew Swallow

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Kosh may also have been taking revenge for his poisoning in "The Gathering". Deathwalker prepared the poison.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
???
Says who???

Didn't they identify the poison as one from a centauri sector where Sinclair's girlfriend came from on her way to B5?
That was one of the points used to frame him IIRC.

So where does Jha'Dur come into it? (except to give a few helpful hints to the real assassin of course...)

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"ShadowScout"
Roman Alexander

"Go on, watch out for Shadows - we'll watch you right back!"

What do you want?
ShadowShips!

 

[bakana]

It was evidently a common and well known poison. As soon as they identified it, they were able to put together an antidote.

Had Deathwalker been making it, she would have made Sure there was No Antidote.
She was just that sort of person.

I believe it was made clear that the poison was bought in Centauri Space for the express purpose of Framing Sinclair.
Killing Kosh was a secondary objective, Framing and Discrediting Sinclair (and Earth) was the real point of the whole thing.
The Windswords may even have known just enough about Vorlons to believe the poison would Fail.
Or they might not have cared, so long as Sinclair took the blame for whatever happened.

Remember, the Windswords who planned Kosh poisoning didn't Know that Sinclair was carrying Valen's soul.
They just wanted to "finish" the Earth Minbari War.
And if they could get the Vorlons to do it for them, so much the better.



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The 3 most common elements in the Universe:
Hydrogen, Greed, Stupidity!

 

[WarpPig]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Galahad:
Why did the vorlon dreadnought miss Deathwalker's ship with it's first shot? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Who says it missed?
Remember the shadows and their allies have the ability to become invisible? Perhaps there was a secret escort there? Besides - an immortality drug? Does that sound a little too advanced for a young race like the Dilgar? It would also have had the effect of causing war on an unprecidented scale, forever - one side fighting for immortality, the other for survival. Wouldn't the Shadows love that!
The vorlon was destroying the shadow escort. No question!

Warppig



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[**DONOTDELETE**]

One might argue that the Shadows would not want this. They might even "remove" Deathwalker as an obstacle to chaos and development.

They believed that chaos had to be delivered regularly, in measured amounts, so that those who survived would have the time to heal and grow stronger -- to be dragged into the next period of conflict.

They had done this for countless times and did not believe in total destruction. They too saw themselves as guardians to the younger races. Guardians who shake things up, which may result in wars and extinctions -- but they never tried to completely destroy.

Deathwalker's serum would have launched a war with no pause, no time to heal, an all-out conflict until nobody would have been left. Yes, temporarily it would have served chaos and evolution -- but in the long run it would have been against Shadow goals.

If the Shadows did help Deathwalker, they did this with the intention of letting her work have a temporary effect. Afther the period of conflict was over, they would have gotten rid of Deathwalker, destroyed all ways of reproducing her serum, and let the younger races heal for a thousand years.

At least this is the way of thinking I would suspect from a Shadow.

[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited November 18, 2001).]

 

[Galahad]

OK how about this compramise. (Engage tongue in cheek mode)

It was a PR exercise. Both the Vorlons and Shadows did not want Deathwalker to mass market the anti-agapic agent. Both send a ship to toast her at the last minute. The vorlons want recognition for resolving the situation, so much so, that they intercept the Shadow ship (or at least warn it off) before despatching the shuttle.

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Back when I was a kid in Sunday School, Father Minkowski once said: "Given the crucifixion was a terrible thing for anyone to endure, if you could go back in time 2200 years, would you prevent the crucifixion of Christ?" Well after a heated debate, we all agreed the answer was no. The crucifixion was necessary to redeem the world. - Lt. John Matheson "The Needs of Earth"

"We live for the One. We die for the One!"

 

[Zoriah]

I don't think there needs even to be Shadow involvement in this scenario. Should we have to assume that every conflict or intergalactic problem has to have some direct influence from the Vorlons or Shadows. I'm pretty sure that various races at one time or another have managed to stir up trouble on their own without nudging (look at the minbari war, although the vorlons did try to influence a resolution of the war) from the V and S. In this case I believe the vorlons got involved for the reasons stated by Bakana.

And why would the vorlons attack a hidden shadow vessel so early on? Remember, they were not ready to openly engage or even reveal that they were mobilising an army of light to the Shadows. Destroying a cloaked shadow vessel, however small, would surely be a violation of that understanding of no open opposition of each others 'guidance'. Note Kosh's reluctance to engage the shadows openly when Sheridan asks, and also the whole cover up behind the inital discovery of the shadow vessels etc.


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