Deconstruction of Falling Stars and the future of the human race (spoilers)

[**DONOTDELETE**]

In Deconstruction, we saw that one million years after the defeat of the Shadows humanity has evolved into semi energy based lifeforms capable of maintaining an aparently human form and even utilizing encounter suits. it has been suggested that they had reached the level of the first ones by this time. my theory on this is that after the telepaths were re-integrated into human society after the fall of the Psi-Corps, many humans may have bred with minbari or with human minbari hybrids [i.e. David Sheridan, Delenn 2,3,(mentioned in Deconstruction) and some of the other minbari who descended from Valen, ect] thus creating a new race and expediting the evolution of both races. JMS has himself stated that the humans and minbari made it to first one status. it just a theory but what do you all think?

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Who do you Serve and Who do you Trust?

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

There have been a ton o' posts about this subject, but Deconstruction is my favorite episode, so I love talking about it.

I have to wonder if human and Minbari societies do not eventually merge sometime between now and a million years hence. Perhaps the human Ranger we saw from a million years in the future was indeed both human and Minbari. It's all speculation, of course. Others say that the Minbari become Vorlon-like and the Humans become Shadow-like. Still others say that the Humans and Minbari guide the younger races as proper teachers like the First Ones were supposed to do. I think the latter is the case. I think that we ulitmately learn our lesson and take our place as teachers and guides of the younger races and that everyone lives hapily everafter.

BTW - The Human Ranger getting into his encounter suit has got to be my FAVORITE scent in the whole 5-year arc. Man, that's cool!

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You are finite. Zathras is finite. This...is wrong tool.

jtk724@hotmail.com

 

[Natron]

If the Minbari and Humans reached first one status, I wonder if they became the new Vorlons (beings of light)? Would that make the Centauri/Drakh the new Shadows???

Also, at the end of the episode, where was the guy going? Beyond the rim? Could he be a possible descendant of Sheridan and Delenn???

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"We live for the one, we die for the one."

 

[GreyVorlon]

the centauri dont reach any status above that in which we left them in Crusade actually. It was said that ONLY the humans and minbari advanced that far- the narns and centuari because of their constant fighting declined and nver made it--- i would agree that the human and minbari societys merged, parcially to guild the yougner races properly like the first ones should have- after all they are the 3 peice of the puzzel (minbari 3 lol) and i strongly oppse the idea of humans=shadows and minbari=vorlons-----

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[whitestar90]

Yes it did look cool the human going into his encounter suit

The whole idea of that episode was to show that humans actually learnt from their past mistakes and saving this knowledge they can move on.....

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"When it is time, come to this place, call our name, we will be here" -Walkers of Sigma957

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Ya know ,shadows, according to delenn were the oldest of the first ones... and as far as i know they never transcended into energy beings... Perhaps the futility of their philosphy kept them forever solid... So it would seem that turning into energy is not the only prerequisite for becoming a first one...

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-----Khurzhor-----

"Farewell friend. I was a thousand times as evil as thou."
-Stormbringer

 

[bakana]

Nope, sorry. Shadows WERE enegry beings.
They just spent a lot of time in material bodies. Particularly when dealing with the Younger races.
For that matter, all the First Ones we saw did that.

Oh, Lorien was the Oldest of the First Ones.

So much older that he considered all the first Ones still hanging around to be Children.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>
"Yes, of course I care. It's a terrible thing when your children fight. I warned the others, but they didn't listen. They never listen."

Lorien in Babylon 5:"Whatever Happened to Mr. Garibaldi?" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Oh, on the Minbari/Human hybrid thing, JMS comments make it very clear that no such thing happened.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> Did the future humans leave the galaxy as the Vorlons did?

No point in leaving the galaxy; stars go nova, it only affects the immediate vicinity (big as that is).
By this point, they were in the position of the Vorlons, and now have to take their (our) place guiding the younger races, the next wave, while not getting in the way and remembering the lesson of the shadow/vorlon conflict.

What about the other races?

The Minbari eventually make it; the Narn and Centauri do not.
They don't die out, they just don't hit a state of First One-ishness, which is darn close to immortality (barring violence).
jms <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

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Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
At best, it will break your heart.
At worst, it will get you dead."

 

[GreyVorlon]

the shadows are energy beings they just choose to stay with their current solid look to deal w/ others- the post above it correct- its also stated in the Technomage Triliagy

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[**DONOTDELETE**]

The fact that they remember their history gives hope that they have learned from it. If they know how their ancestors ended the last Shadow war, they are less likely to repeat the Shadow and Vorlon mistakes.

As for First One status, well, it is simply a status. If you don't become extinct, you will reach it -- after accumulating enough knowledge, experience and technology.

Connections between the Humans and Minbari? Well, they existed. Due to the Rangers, we may assume that their connections stayed close, and relations peaceful. But they probably didn't merge. Otherwise the Human ranger seen in "Deconstruction" would have exhibited at least some Minbari traits of appearance.

As for the episode itself... I liked it.

[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited January 17, 2002).]

 

[bakana]

Well, since JMS statement was that the Minbari Eventually make it, that pretty solidly rules out any "merging".

As if the idea that either race would WANT to merge weren't pretty silly.

Eventually usually means that it took them a while.

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Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
At best, it will break your heart.
At worst, it will get you dead."

 

[jnk5y]

first i don't think humans and minbari could mix it up cause they have different reproductive stuff (hope i'm not getting too technical). Unless they all used the triluminary to transform themselves.

An interesting thing is that the universe started making beings that practically lived forever and then changed it up and made us live for a short time. So now we have come full circle and become immortal again. I wonder if we have left behind joy and love and companionship b/c we know they won't last.

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[**DONOTDELETE**]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>have come full circle and become immortal again. I wonder if we have left behind joy and love and companionship b/c we know they won't last.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Like all really good questions, this too is still open.

If you would ask a Shadow, it might tell you that everything lasts -- in eternal change. That only by running can you stay where you are, that only by searching can you maintain what you have.

Perhaps the original First Ones simply forgot how to dream -- and how to rediscover lost dreams. Perhaps they got fixed in their ways, preferred safety in isolation over companionship in uncertainty.

Perhaps Lorien was an old fool and Ivanova was right. How can you expect love to last forever if the parties involved cling to their past? It can not. It will fade. Only if both parties keep learning, only if they accept change and choose to face it together... only then can it last.

A spoiler about Galen, the Shadows and the third technomage book.

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black>Basing on the Shadow sentence Galen noticed on Z'ha'dum, we may suspect that at some point, the Shadows knew this. At some point they knew how to stay balanced in spite of living forever, how to stay fresh in spite of their age.

The sentence was something like this: "only in shadows, only between doubt and certainty can true understanding be found". They knew that they too should keep solving the puzzles presented by life.

But like everyone, they made mistakes. As they had no peers to point out these mistakes, the dropped deeper and deeper until they got lost. The same happended to most other First Ones.

Only if they would have kept exploring, actively traveled the galaxy, communicated with each other and lived an interesting life, only then could they have kept their dreams.</font></td></tr></table>

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"We are the universe, trying to figure itself out.
Unfortunately we as software lack any coherent documentation."
-- Delenn

[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited January 18, 2002).]

 

[GaribaldisHair]

[NITPICK] Surely whatever the humans and Minbari have evolved into they cannot be "First Ones" as they by definition were the first races created by the universe. "Elder Races" is probably better. [/NITPICK]

The million years thing from DoFS is intriguing though.

Way back in the S1 episode "Mind War", Jason Ironheart said he would "... see you again in a million years" (ish) after he had "become" a being of light and energy.

Lyta also passed on a message (S4 somewhere IIRC) from the Vorlons that their homeworld was off-limits to us until we were ready "... a million years".

Does this mean that "New Earth" = Vorlon Homeworld? I would like to think so.

Incidentally, I don't recall ever seeing the Vorlon Homeworld given a name. Anyone know whether it was?

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DaveC
"Want to talk socks?"

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

David Sheridan was part Minbari and part Human. Delenn was Minbari with some human characteristics due to the chrysalis transformation. in addition to all this, the transformation of Sinclair/Valen (i still love that name) into a Minbari and the fact that many of his descendants exhibit facial hair while most Minbari are hairless might lead one to believe that at least some Minbari are compatible with Humans regardless of chrysalis transformations. Delenn is a descendant of Valen and sucessfully conceived and eventuall carried a child to term by Sheridan. also, Sinclair/Valen produced descendants by Sakai after his transormation, producing the bearded minbari we see occasionally. it only stands to reason that over time as the Humans and Minbari grew closer via the Rangers that some of them would develop relationships and that at least a few MAY be able to reproduce, wether by natural means or with medical assistence. it is true that the Minbari and Humans evolved seperatly to the level of the Vorlons, as stated by JMS, but that does not exclude the possibility of some hybrids. i think David Sheridan and other descendants of Valen and Sakai, Sheridan and Delenn, and eventually David could breed. this would be the ultimate joining of the Human and Minbari races, even if the majority stayed seperate.
anyway, these are only my thoughts. i only wished to share them.

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Who do you Serve and Who do you Trust?

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

after all, we know very little about the state of the galaxy and the races of the b5 universe by the time of DoFS.
i think just because the ranger at the end looked human doesnt mean he was completely human. if he was energy based perhaps he could take any form he wished, or perhaps the image we saw was an idealized image, like the technomages electron incantations.
personally, i just love to speculate, within reason of course.
what i really find interesting is how the Humans and Minbari would react to mixed-race offspring. one would hope they would be evolved enough to see past race, especially since these two races were supposed to be coming together, as stated so many times throughout b5. i would like to think "coming together" had deeper meaning than cooperating to fight the shadows.
i wonder how a Minbari/Human halfbreed would live in either society and how they would be accepted or rejected and how Humans or Minbari would relate to them.

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Who do you Serve and Who do you Trust?

 

[bakana]

You've forgotten the most obvious objection to your assumption that Valen & Sakai produced Hybrid children.
The Minbari would not have tolerated such a marriage.

In order to "fit in", Sakai would find it much easier, both for herself and her children, to undergo transformation by using the Chrysalis.
This is also given as the most likely reason for the existence of THREE Triluminaries.
One for Delenn, one for Sinclair/Valen, one for Sakai.

The triluminary is capable of performing a Complete "rewrite" of a person's DNA.
From a practical point of view, it's the only way Delenn & Valen could have been changed.
The fact that Delenn's entire Metabolism changed (as noted in dialogue with Franklin) is proof that her DNA was modified.
If the changes had been "cosmetic" she wouldn't have had the problems she did in adjusting to her new hormones and other "mocifications".



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Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
At best, it will break your heart.
At worst, it will get you dead."

 

[Galahad]

But we know that the Minbari did NOT accept Valen's relatives after his passing. They fled into exile. Perhaps this was because they exhibited human traits, which the Minbari saw as being "impure", basically they took things a little too face value. Hmm if it don't look totally Minbari, smell totally Minbari and feel totally Minbari, it probably isn't... witch... burn them... and thus it came to pass that Valen's children didst leg it! By the time of Delenn, his descendants are back, so we can assume that they found a way to conceal any traits that might betray them, and reintergrated into Minbari society.

I think the humans and minbari might have adopted "understanding is a three edge sword" as a mantra. They have their own seperate first one societies, with two differing views, and then they have a central body, as a lasting memorial to the Alliance, made up of Rangers and teachers. This would allow both races to use their own styles in raising younger races, but with a common body as point of reference, there would be respect, understanding and continous dialogue on how the races were developing and what steps the humans/minbari should take in order to achieve the common goals.

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Back when I was a kid in Sunday School, Father Minkowski once said: "Given the crucifixion was a terrible thing for anyone to endure, if you could go back in time 2200 years, would you prevent the crucifixion of Christ?" Well after a heated debate, we all agreed the answer was no. The crucifixion was necessary to redeem the world. - Lt. John Matheson "The Needs of Earth"

"We live for the One. We die for the One!"

 

[Galahad]

Incidentally, it might be worth noting the way the human changes form. It's very Lorienesque, and the encounter suit obviously Vorlonesque. Might this be a visual representation of where we were politically... somewhere between Lorien and Vorlon philosophy... just for thought not my belief.



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Back when I was a kid in Sunday School, Father Minkowski once said: "Given the crucifixion was a terrible thing for anyone to endure, if you could go back in time 2200 years, would you prevent the crucifixion of Christ?" Well after a heated debate, we all agreed the answer was no. The crucifixion was necessary to redeem the world. - Lt. John Matheson "The Needs of Earth"

"We live for the One. We die for the One!"

 

[Starkiller]

There's some really interesting comments here. Where is it stated the Minbari evolved to become energy beings just as Lorien and the Vorlons? Seeing as though the Minbari were exploring the stars at least a 1,000 years before humans did. I'd imagine the Minbari to have evolved to 'first one' status quite a bit before the humans. Perhaps 500,000 years before mankind becomes energy beings?

 

[KoshFan]

It's stated in JMS's comments for that episode:

# Did the future humans leave the galaxy as the Vorlons did?
No point in leaving the galaxy; stars go nova, it only affects the immediate vicinity (big as that is). By this point, they were in the position of the Vorlons, and now have to take their (our) place guiding the younger races, the next wave, while not getting in the way and remembering the lesson of the shadow/vorlon conflict.

# What about the other races?
The Minbari eventually make it; the Narn and Centauri do not. They don't die out, they just don't hit a state of First One-ishness, which is darn close to immortality (barring violence).

And while the Minbari did have a head-start, they're also fairly slow-moving in their ways. Plus, they'd be very closely associated with us by then. I imagine we made the step together.