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Delenn croaking it
- Thread starter DaRkEnEdStAr
- Start date
Joseph DeMartino
Moderator
Actually, "becomes an energy being and dies" is a typo. It has been corrected to read "becomes an energy being and goes on."
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
...and so are its counterparts from an infinite number of previous cycles.
[/quote]
There is no infinite number of cycles, which was my point in the earlier post. There is a single, closed, loop.
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
When that energy being (who is around) arrived in the past, a previous energy being was still around, and still is, unless he died
[/quote]
No energy being arrives in the past, and there is no "previous energy being". You're getting hung up on a non-existant problem.
Sinclair (or Valen, depending on how long the Chrysalis transformation and the time trip take) arrives in the past. His energy form does not yet exist. If such a thing happens at all, it won't happen for another 100 years or so. Valen lives out his life and dies or whatever. 900 years later Sinclair is born, lives, goes back in time, and the whole thing plays out again. Sinclair and the still-living Valen/energy being would co-exist for a brief time. (Roughly forty years.) But since it is Sinclair, not the energy being, who goes back in time, there is no paradox.
There aren't two Sinclairs the second time "through" and three Sinclairs the next, because every time he travels through time he arrives in a past where there is no Valen, in either corporeal or energy form, and in which he therefore becomes the one and only Valen. He doesn't, in fact, make multiple trips back in time. Every time he does this it is the same, original trip. There are no "cycles".
Regards,
Joe
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
...and so are its counterparts from an infinite number of previous cycles.
[/quote]
There is no infinite number of cycles, which was my point in the earlier post. There is a single, closed, loop.
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
When that energy being (who is around) arrived in the past, a previous energy being was still around, and still is, unless he died
[/quote]
No energy being arrives in the past, and there is no "previous energy being". You're getting hung up on a non-existant problem.
Sinclair (or Valen, depending on how long the Chrysalis transformation and the time trip take) arrives in the past. His energy form does not yet exist. If such a thing happens at all, it won't happen for another 100 years or so. Valen lives out his life and dies or whatever. 900 years later Sinclair is born, lives, goes back in time, and the whole thing plays out again. Sinclair and the still-living Valen/energy being would co-exist for a brief time. (Roughly forty years.) But since it is Sinclair, not the energy being, who goes back in time, there is no paradox.
There aren't two Sinclairs the second time "through" and three Sinclairs the next, because every time he travels through time he arrives in a past where there is no Valen, in either corporeal or energy form, and in which he therefore becomes the one and only Valen. He doesn't, in fact, make multiple trips back in time. Every time he does this it is the same, original trip. There are no "cycles".
Regards,
Joe
Okay ... well ... um ... one of the points Lennier made was the same atoms that made Sinclair / Valen when he died made Sinclair when he was born and the atoms that were in B4 in the past were used to make B4 in the future (or so he seemed to say - correct me if I read wrong) ... I don't see why Sinclair's atoms had to be returned to the baby ... and there you have a mass problem anyway. We add atoms throughout our life being eating ... and in fact since most of our cells have much shorter lifespans than our whole and we do loose many of them (not just reabosrbed), much of ourselves are being replaced by atoms all the time anyway. By the time Valen died (if he died) he probably had few if any of the same atoms the zygote that would be baby Jeffrey had.
As for B4 ... those atoms would be a little more locked into the structure as long as the station lasted and wasn't vastly refitted (enough upgrade and you replace every part eventually anyway). So for 1000 years you have the same atoms existed in two places in the universe ... which you'd have no matter what form Sinclair or B4 took ... yeah, this might break some laws of physics but we really don't know what. If we believe that the time travel is possible in the reality of the B5 universe (which it is), then the universe doesn't matter duplicate matter or has some way to compensate. Technically, you run into mass problems with any non linear time-travel (not counting any time effects by traveling close to c or near massive gravitational sources) unless there is some compensation ... and hey, for the past 8 years I've always thought dark matter would be good for that; it's not doing anything else, just shift some around when ever you time travel so the mass of the universe is kept constant!
Now, as for going Beyond the Rim ... has anyone actually tried to take a ship physically "Beyond the Rim"? I doubt JMS would put in a "galatic barrier" like Star Trek did so it should be simple to leave the galaxy once you get out there far. It could take centuries - even in hyperspace - to get there for most races (it's not quite been established where the so called Rim is given there is not definate edge to the galaxy nor are we sure what distances are used in B5 - they sometimes contradict) or a few years or a few weeks or whatever ... but cyrogenics is available. Maybe Delenn - or others - could do that and once out there, Lorien, Sheriden, other First Ones, might pick them up. I don't exactly believe they're all out there living in the void and can be reached by ship, but they'd probably take notice of the few crafts that came that far off the beacon ... might even be waiting for certain people like Delenn ...
As for B4 ... those atoms would be a little more locked into the structure as long as the station lasted and wasn't vastly refitted (enough upgrade and you replace every part eventually anyway). So for 1000 years you have the same atoms existed in two places in the universe ... which you'd have no matter what form Sinclair or B4 took ... yeah, this might break some laws of physics but we really don't know what. If we believe that the time travel is possible in the reality of the B5 universe (which it is), then the universe doesn't matter duplicate matter or has some way to compensate. Technically, you run into mass problems with any non linear time-travel (not counting any time effects by traveling close to c or near massive gravitational sources) unless there is some compensation ... and hey, for the past 8 years I've always thought dark matter would be good for that; it's not doing anything else, just shift some around when ever you time travel so the mass of the universe is kept constant!
Now, as for going Beyond the Rim ... has anyone actually tried to take a ship physically "Beyond the Rim"? I doubt JMS would put in a "galatic barrier" like Star Trek did so it should be simple to leave the galaxy once you get out there far. It could take centuries - even in hyperspace - to get there for most races (it's not quite been established where the so called Rim is given there is not definate edge to the galaxy nor are we sure what distances are used in B5 - they sometimes contradict) or a few years or a few weeks or whatever ... but cyrogenics is available. Maybe Delenn - or others - could do that and once out there, Lorien, Sheriden, other First Ones, might pick them up. I don't exactly believe they're all out there living in the void and can be reached by ship, but they'd probably take notice of the few crafts that came that far off the beacon ... might even be waiting for certain people like Delenn ...
Right, That's it!!!
I think I'm going to start taking drugs now just so I can try to understand what on earth these guys are talking about!!
/forums/images/icons/confused.gif /forums/images/icons/confused.gif /forums/images/icons/confused.gif /forums/images/icons/confused.gif /forums/images/icons/confused.gif
I think I'm going to start taking drugs now just so I can try to understand what on earth these guys are talking about!!
/forums/images/icons/confused.gif /forums/images/icons/confused.gif /forums/images/icons/confused.gif /forums/images/icons/confused.gif /forums/images/icons/confused.gif
D
**DONOTDELETE**
Guest
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
There is no infinite number of cycles, which was my point in the earlier post. There is a single, closed, loop.
[/quote] But there must be an infinite number of cycles running, for there was clearly a previous cycle, for which something had to create the influence which created Valen...
...because the future of the same world unchanged could not have created Valen, for otherwise there would be no causality. Or possibly, dragging with me concepts like causality, I just occasionally stumble on serious troubles with understanding fictional possibilities of time travel.
Actually, you may be right, Joe. If we assume that a time loop is possible in the first place, it may be that we have already made enough assumptions about the rules applicable to time travel to avoid the "multiple Valens" paradox.
To always have one Valen at a time, what assumptions would have to be made? To me it seems that I would have to assume that the world which Valen enters is untouched by the loop, not likely to produce a Valen via natural course of events. This is because an unchanged world and a changed world cannot yield the same result.
However, each world Sinclair leaves is clearly touched by the loop, because it had Valen! If a connection is possible one way, it must be possible the other way! Otherwise we would have to assume time unidirectional, which would mean assuming time travel impossble.
-------
However, even fully dropping the "multiple Valens" issue...
There is a fellow named Sinclair. He learns that there was a fellow named Valen, who he must become. He goes to the past, where he becomes Valen, and presumably lives happily ever after, to see himself as Sinclair go to the past, and live happily ever after.
Now, despite the fact that most particles which Sinclair contained are likely to get exchanged within 1000 years, some of them are likely not to get exchanged, or not reach Sinclair in time (be located in another region of space). These particles now exist in two places at the same time. In the place where Valen resides or left them, and in the current Sinclair who goes to the past.
This creates yet another paradox, one not fully described before, yet equally puzzling. The same particle is almost infinitely unlikely to exist in two widely separated places. True, quantum mechanics define the location of a particle as a probability, but the probability of being both "here" and light-years away is terribly, infinitely small.
Actually, now that I think of it, this paradox too happens regardless of whether Valen died or lived, with simply the probabilities varying. So actually, if we would deem Siclair's trip possible at all, we might also plainly ignore this paradox.
There is no infinite number of cycles, which was my point in the earlier post. There is a single, closed, loop.
[/quote] But there must be an infinite number of cycles running, for there was clearly a previous cycle, for which something had to create the influence which created Valen...
...because the future of the same world unchanged could not have created Valen, for otherwise there would be no causality. Or possibly, dragging with me concepts like causality, I just occasionally stumble on serious troubles with understanding fictional possibilities of time travel.
Actually, you may be right, Joe. If we assume that a time loop is possible in the first place, it may be that we have already made enough assumptions about the rules applicable to time travel to avoid the "multiple Valens" paradox.
To always have one Valen at a time, what assumptions would have to be made? To me it seems that I would have to assume that the world which Valen enters is untouched by the loop, not likely to produce a Valen via natural course of events. This is because an unchanged world and a changed world cannot yield the same result.
However, each world Sinclair leaves is clearly touched by the loop, because it had Valen! If a connection is possible one way, it must be possible the other way! Otherwise we would have to assume time unidirectional, which would mean assuming time travel impossble.
-------
However, even fully dropping the "multiple Valens" issue...
There is a fellow named Sinclair. He learns that there was a fellow named Valen, who he must become. He goes to the past, where he becomes Valen, and presumably lives happily ever after, to see himself as Sinclair go to the past, and live happily ever after.
Now, despite the fact that most particles which Sinclair contained are likely to get exchanged within 1000 years, some of them are likely not to get exchanged, or not reach Sinclair in time (be located in another region of space). These particles now exist in two places at the same time. In the place where Valen resides or left them, and in the current Sinclair who goes to the past.
This creates yet another paradox, one not fully described before, yet equally puzzling. The same particle is almost infinitely unlikely to exist in two widely separated places. True, quantum mechanics define the location of a particle as a probability, but the probability of being both "here" and light-years away is terribly, infinitely small.
Actually, now that I think of it, this paradox too happens regardless of whether Valen died or lived, with simply the probabilities varying. So actually, if we would deem Siclair's trip possible at all, we might also plainly ignore this paradox.
The "time loop" has puzzled me but I must confess I've never thought so hard about it before. I have to admit I agree with
Joe that this is not a multiple thing. If it happened over and over then everyone else in the story would also have to
return over and over to complete the story. As I see it, Sinclair is born, grows up, finds he has a destiny which
involves going back in time to become Valen. After all, there was no Valen until he arrived so there was only one
person, Sinclair/Valen. Valen remembers that he was once Sinclair and writes a letter to make sure Sinclair does
go back in time or Valen would never have existed.
As for Delenn, I prefer to think she and Sheridan will meet again in a spiritual sense, not as corporeal beings.
If Sheridan is beyond the rim, then he will come and get her when the time is right. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif
Joe that this is not a multiple thing. If it happened over and over then everyone else in the story would also have to
return over and over to complete the story. As I see it, Sinclair is born, grows up, finds he has a destiny which
involves going back in time to become Valen. After all, there was no Valen until he arrived so there was only one
person, Sinclair/Valen. Valen remembers that he was once Sinclair and writes a letter to make sure Sinclair does
go back in time or Valen would never have existed.
As for Delenn, I prefer to think she and Sheridan will meet again in a spiritual sense, not as corporeal beings.
If Sheridan is beyond the rim, then he will come and get her when the time is right. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif
Okay, if no one minds, I shall digress to the original topic.
Two points:
One- John Sheridan is dead when he goes beyond the rim with Lorien. It is implicit that just because he is dead, it does not mean that he no longer exists. After all, he died at Z'ha'dum and had many in-depth discussions with Lorien whilst deceased.
Two- "Beyond the rim" may be more metaphysical than physical in the context of the story. It is never implied that anyone has to be "ready" to go to any specific geographical location. So, "beyond the rim" might well be a metaphor for transcending some sort of dimensional existence where lines of life and death are no longer rigid.
Delenn promised Sheridan that they would meet after death in a place "where no shadows fall". Since the Shadows have gone beyond the rim, as has Sheridan, she would be breaking her promise is she went with him. But she would also break the same promise if she didn't. Now THERE's a paradox.
Two points:
One- John Sheridan is dead when he goes beyond the rim with Lorien. It is implicit that just because he is dead, it does not mean that he no longer exists. After all, he died at Z'ha'dum and had many in-depth discussions with Lorien whilst deceased.
Two- "Beyond the rim" may be more metaphysical than physical in the context of the story. It is never implied that anyone has to be "ready" to go to any specific geographical location. So, "beyond the rim" might well be a metaphor for transcending some sort of dimensional existence where lines of life and death are no longer rigid.
Delenn promised Sheridan that they would meet after death in a place "where no shadows fall". Since the Shadows have gone beyond the rim, as has Sheridan, she would be breaking her promise is she went with him. But she would also break the same promise if she didn't. Now THERE's a paradox.
crazybillyo
Regular
Lennier needs to be informed of the KISS principle. /forums/images/icons/grin.gif
And to be fair, that has to applied to Joe as well when he gets all techy and things. /forums/images/icons/cool.gif
And to be fair, that has to applied to Joe as well when he gets all techy and things. /forums/images/icons/cool.gif
Keep It Simple Stupid.
Unfortunately, with most of the discussions around here, there's nothing simple about them! LOL!
And I just have to throw in, saying 'Delenn croaking it' is like saying, 'Lincoln got slagged.'
::shaking head at disrespect rampant around here:: LOL!
Unfortunately, with most of the discussions around here, there's nothing simple about them! LOL!
And I just have to throw in, saying 'Delenn croaking it' is like saying, 'Lincoln got slagged.'
::shaking head at disrespect rampant around here:: LOL!
hypatia
Regular
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
Actually, "becomes an energy being and dies" is a typo. It has been corrected to read "becomes an energy being and goes on."
[/quote]
I'll confess that I'm not really following this too well before I even post. /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif
It seems to me the only contradiction would be if somehow "Valen" didn't die. If he lived long enough to see the birth of "Sinclair" then, just where is this man's soul? Can his soul be split between the two? I just don't see any contradiction as long as Valen lived a few hundered years and then died.
As far as energy not being created or destroyed in a universe, that is with the traditional laws of physics which are most definitely based in a not-travelling-through-time kind of basis. IF time travel is possible, we simply have no idea what the physics would be.
Like in the center of a black hole. The best we can do is say "normal physical laws just don't hold there".
Actually, "becomes an energy being and dies" is a typo. It has been corrected to read "becomes an energy being and goes on."
[/quote]
I'll confess that I'm not really following this too well before I even post. /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif
It seems to me the only contradiction would be if somehow "Valen" didn't die. If he lived long enough to see the birth of "Sinclair" then, just where is this man's soul? Can his soul be split between the two? I just don't see any contradiction as long as Valen lived a few hundered years and then died.
As far as energy not being created or destroyed in a universe, that is with the traditional laws of physics which are most definitely based in a not-travelling-through-time kind of basis. IF time travel is possible, we simply have no idea what the physics would be.
Like in the center of a black hole. The best we can do is say "normal physical laws just don't hold there".
