DelRey Update - B5 Short Story Anth., Novels, etc.

[KoshN]

-----Original Message-----
From: Mac Breck [macthevorlon@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2003 7:00 AM
To: Saffel, Steve
Subject: Babylon 5 Short Story Anthology, Novels, etc.

What's the current status at Del Rey concerning the Babylon 5 Short Story Anthology, novels (including the Dell reprints), etc.? From the consumer's perspective, it appears that things are quite dead.

What the fanbase could really use right now are Crusade novels and the short story anthology.


Mac Breck (KoshN) - from the desktop PC
-------------------------------
http://www.scifi.com/babylon5/
http://www.scifi.com/crusade/
http://www.scifi.com/bboard/browse.cgi/1/5/1521 (Brimstone)




From Saffel, Steve Mon Dec 1 06:44:52 2003
Subject: RE: Babylon 5 Short Story Anthology, Novels, etc.
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 09:44:52 -0500
From: "Saffel, Steve" SSaffel@randomhouse.com
To: "Mac Breck" <macthevorlon@yahoo.com>


Dear Mac:
While we'd be happy to be publishing more Babylon 5 novels (including the short story collection and Crusade novels), I'm afraid it will require a new agreement with Warner Bros., and interest from a lot more fans. We seem to have reached a plateau, and there are no new fans buying the existing novels, so there's not much indication that new books would succeed. And sending us e-mail doesn't really help; what we really need is for new people to buy the existing novels. That would make everyone sit up and take notice. Publishers love to publish books that sell, and book stores love to sell them.

One of my personal crusades--if I may borrow that word--is to make sure fans don't take "no" for and answer in the book store. Because sales have fallen off, many book stores don't feel they can stock all of the B5 novels. This is understandable, since they only have so much shelf space, so the only way these books will stay in print is if the fans demand the books, and keep at it. Press the store to order the books you want to buy--after all, this is a sale for them! If one store doesn't feel as if they can order the book, go to another store, or one of the online retailers.

One caution: don't ask the store to order the books unless you plan to buy them. They can't waste their valuable shelf space on books that very well may not sell.

We'll keep talking with Warner Bros. to see if we can come up with a new agreement, but for the moment the fans will have to be happy with what we've got.

Best,
Steve
___________________
Steve Saffel
Executive Editor
Del Rey Books
1745 Broadway
New York, NY 10019
(212) 782-8320
Fax: (212) 829-6934
****************************************
****************************************

It appears that either the fanbase is not big enough to support DelRey going for more books, or that the fanbase hasn't been buying the books. Me, I've bought five complete sets, one for myself, three as gifts, and one set for the local public library. I don't know what more I can do. All but the first set were ordered by going to my local WaldenBooks with a printout of the ISBNs, and ordering them. The only place that I saw that had a fairly complete selection of the three trilogies and novelizations was the Narns & Noble in Cranberry, PA. Most other places just had a book or two from each trilogy, naturally with the newer stuff being better represented on the shelf.

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

Re: Morons

You know, it might help if some of these marketing geniuses had ever heard of a thing called "cross-promotion" or even "promotion" for that matter. How many fans who aren't obsessive/compulsive netizens are even aware that Del Rey published three original B5 trilogies, or that they are now reprinting the out-of-print Dell books? I learned about their re-issue of The Shadow Within because Jeanne Cavelos posted a message about it on the ISN News Forum. Most book buyers, even SF and B5 fans, do not have this kind of access to inside info. Were the books publicized much in the general SF world? (Magazines, conventions?)

One place they haven't been publicized is in the DVD sets. Why isn't Del Rey pushing Warner Bros. to include some advertising (maybe even on-disc) to let people (especially new fans of the show) know that there are B5 novels? I think small booklet with an excerpt from one or two of the books and a list of all of them would be a big help. So would a mention of the books from JMS in the on-disc documentaries. Maybe the S5 set can include a feature on B5 in other media - including the books, the comic books and the cancelled computer game.

I mean, come on. Book sales are flat. DVD sales are through the roof. How hard is it to figure that advertising on the DVDs might increase booksales? Do we have to do all the thinking for these characters? We had to beg them to do the DVDs, and beg them to do the books. Now it appears we'll have to beg them to market them rationally. *sigh*

I'd suggest sending one more e-mail to Steve mentioning the idea, and maybe a post to JMS on the newsgroup. (I'm temporarily unable to post because my ISP is having some kind of goofy problems with its news server.) In the meantime I think I'll send a letter to someone at WHV. May not do any good, but at least I'll have tried.

Regards,

Joe

 

[A_M_Swallow]

Re: Morons

The Babylon 5 role playing game books are being advertised by a sheet of paper inserted into the UK Season 3 DVDs. So the ordinary books would just be an extension of this.

UK Channel 4 used to mention the books at the end of the episodes. This was when Channel 4 actually published books 1 to 9.

 

[phoenixrising]

Re: Morons

Having only heard about the short stories and never read them, I would love to see a B5 anthology. Mainly because I want to read the Ivanova/Marcus stories. I'm a sucker for romance (yeah, a straight guy that's a sucker for romance) and wanted those two to get together.

 

[ElScorcho]

Re: Morons

This was when Channel 4 actually published books 1 to 9.

I actually completed my collection by getting one of the Channel 4 set off of ebay. In the end, it cost me more than it was worth...

Sorry, DelRay, but I had to take no for an answer on that one. Sorry for not buying any of the books that aren't there. And sorry for not buying reprints of books I already own.

 

[KoshN]

Re: Morons

You know, it might help if some of these marketing geniuses had ever heard of a thing called "cross-promotion" or even "promotion" for that matter. How many fans who aren't obsessive/compulsive netizens are even aware that Del Rey published three original B5 trilogies, or that they are now reprinting the out-of-print Dell books? I learned about their re-issue of The Shadow Within because Jeanne Cavelos posted a message about it on the ISN News Forum. Most book buyers, even SF and B5 fans, do not read this kind of access to inside info. Were the books publicized much in the general SF world? (Magazines, conventions?)

You know, this is eerily similar to what I've told Steve many times in the past.

One place they haven't been publicized is in the DVD sets. Why isn't Del Rey pushing Warner Bros. to include some advertising (maybe even on-disc) to let people (especially new fans of the show) know that there are B5 novels? I think small booklet with an excerpt from one or two of the books and a list of all of them would be a big help. So would a mention of the books from JMS in the on-disc documentaries. Maybe the S5 set can include a feature on B5 in other media - including the books, the comic books and the cancelled computer game.

The cancelled computer game? But it's cancelled (not available) and the only that is going to become available is the "I've Found Her" (completely unauthorized version), and we don't want to tell Warner about that!!! Those scumbags would stifle it. Then we'd never see a B5 Computer Game, EVER! I want my B5 game! Shhhhh!!!!!

I mean, come on. Book sales are flat. DVD sales are through the roof. How hard is it to figure that advertising on the DVDs might increase booksales? Do we have to do all the thinking for these characters? We had to beg them to do the DVDs, and beg them to do the books. Now it appears we'll have to beg them to market them rationally. *sigh*

Holy Kosh, you're beginning to sound like me! Now you know the frustration I'm going through with DelRey.

I'd suggest sending one more e-mail to Steve mentioning the idea, and maybe a post to JMS on the newsgroup. (I'm temporarily unable to post because my ISP is having some kind of goofy problems with its news server.) In the meantime I think I'll send a letter to someone at WHV. May not do any good, but at least I'll have tried.

I sent that very email (the one at the start of this thread) to rastb5m this morning, in order that JMS could see it. It hasn't shown up yet.


Tell you what I'd like to do,....send Steve the link to this thread. :devil:

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

Re: Morons

The cancelled computer game? But it's cancelled

A documentary about non-television projects involving B5 would necessarily include information (and maybe clips from) the computer game, even though it never saw the light of day. The fact that they tried to do it is still part of B5 history, the same way Crusade is even though it only lasted 13 episodes.

I have no doubt that the WB lawyers are already aware of "Into the Fire". The folks producing it have been incredibly indiscreet. They're probably just waiting for them to release the game before they pounce, because the game itself will constitute evidence when they take them to court.

That's a pity for the guys behind the game, but they had to have known what they were letting themselves in for when they started, and they should realize that "but we weren't charging any money" is no defense in a case like this.

Regards,

Joe

 

[KoshN]

Re: Morons

The cancelled computer game? But it's cancelled

A documentary about non-television projects involving B5 would necessarily include information (and maybe clips from) the computer game, even though it never saw the light of day.

Yes, the live action footage that was shot, I'd forgotten about that. Maybe they could also interview the game designers, who could say what it was going to be like. That might create some new interest.

I have no doubt that the WB lawyers are already aware of "Into the Fire".

That was the name of the legit game that Sierra/Havas scuttled, and that the creators tried to get going independently. "I've Found Her" is the unauthorized game, from Russia. The latter is what I'm talking about.

The folks producing it have been incredibly indiscreet. They're probably just waiting for them to release the game before they pounce, because the game itself will constitute evidence when they take them to court.

If the game is good, and I think it will be, I hope WB sees this as an opportunity to buy the game from them before release, instead of just an opportunity to stifle things. The B5 universe can't afford any more stiffling, not that WB would ever be able to recognize that, or care. First order of business: Draconian measures. WB underling to head honchos: "But sir, that's cutting off our own noses!" Reply: "That's OK, we don't need our noses."

That's a pity for the guys behind the game, but they had to have known what they were letting themselves in for when they started, and they should realize that "but we weren't charging any money" is no defense in a case like this.

It'll be sad to see such a labor of love get punished.

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

Re: Morons

If the game is good, and I think it will be, I hope WB sees this as an opportunity to buy the game from them before release

??? For what reason? WB does not publish computer games, which is why they licensed Sierra to do "Into the Fire" in the first place.

So they wouldn't be able to do anything with "I've Found Her" if they did buy it. Besides, my understanding is that "IFH" is essentially a mod to an existing game - making it doubly useless to Warner Bros. The only thing the game can do is reduce the potential market for an authorized B5 computer game, and therefore reduce the interest of commercial game company in wanting to pay a license fee to produce one. Of course their lawyers are going to come down on these guys like a ton of bricks. There's nothing "draconian" about this and nobody is cutting off their noses here. It isn't Warner Bros. fault that nobody since Sierra has been interested in a computer game - unless, indeed, one of the projects that JMS mentioned is a computer game. In which case "I've Found Her" is going to be an even bigger threat in WB's eyes.

Regards,

Joe

 

[KoshN]

Re: Morons

If the game is good, and I think it will be, I hope WB sees this as an opportunity to buy the game from them before release

??? For what reason? WB does not publish computer games, which is why they licensed Sierra to do "Into the Fire" in the first place.

So they wouldn't be able to do anything with "I've Found Her" if they did buy it. Besides, my understanding is that "IFH" is essentially a mod to an existing game - making it doubly useless to Warner Bros.

I thought "IFH" was more of a "from scratch" game, rather than just a mod. I wish there was a way that WB could make use of all the work that's gone into "IFH" instead of having it all go to waste, and us having to wait several more years for a B5 game to finally see the light of day.

 

[Alpha1]

Re: Morons

ifh was build from scratch and is not a mod. i think WB will not do andthing. they have done nothging about the other mods they are available. and about the piotential for a b5 game. sierra had have their chance and they waste it. since years the fans are waiting for b5 games. thats a reason for all the b5 mods there are avaialblke. fans make them because they want to play a b5 game. they do them for the other b5 fans in their free time. and i think ifh it a very good chance to flay a starfury in an own game and not a mod. i think it is not a big competition for licensed b5 games. fans will buy them anywas. and most game companies think the space sim grene is dead and focus on fps and strategy games. and if many many fans will download ifh it is another way to show that there is a marked for a commercial b5 game. don't know whats your problem is with the mods and ifh in special @ demartino.

if WB will do something against ifh the must also do something agains all the other mods and this will call a lot of protest from the fans and mod comunity and itrs not good promotion for WB.

if they are wise they perhaps licensed the game (ifh)
as far as i can tell uit had the quality of some comercial games.

PS excuse my bad english

 

[GaribaldisHair]

Re: Morons

Touch of PC game semantics going on here.

It is true that IFH has been built "from scratch" and stands alone (i.e. it is not a bolt-on to another game). However, my understanding is that one of the reasons for the massive delays in completing the demo campaign for IFH is the fact that those in the development team responsible for the game engine have had to put it on hold in order to finish a game called Home Planet first for commercial release in Russia.

The reason is that IFH uses all he same game engine and technology as HP does, and there would have been hell to pay if IFH (freeware) came out too close behind HP (commercial).

The game itself looks great in the stuff that has been released to date, but I can't help thinking Joe might be right when it comes to release date.

 

[zantarous]

Just going back to the book subject. I am not a marketing person (I work in IT) but can Dellray really expect books to sell that have been available for many years? I know books are different from say toys which come out with a new range each year.

I'd imagine all the people that are likely to buy the books have them, these would be the same people that would want new ones.

I completly agree with Joe on the cross marketing.

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

Re: Morons

Hmmm... "IFH" isn't a mod, then you refer to WB not doing anything about "other mods". Thanks for clearing that up.

I don't have anything against your game or the others. I was merely pointing out that Warner Bros. very likely will, and mentioned the various reasons why they might. Modifications of existing games are less of a direct threat to sales of an authorized game than a stand-alone game such as "IFH"

if they are wise they perhaps licensed the game (ifh)

You guys are in a position to pay for a license?

Just going back to the book subject. I am not a marketing person (I work in IT) but can Dellray really expect books to sell that have been available for many years?

Sure. Some books never go out of print because they're invariably required reading for school, others because new generations of fans discover them every year. (Lord of the Rings, 2001 and Asimov's Foundation Trilogy are three titles that immediately come to mind.) And not all of the books were issued "years ago". To Dream in the City of Sorrows was either late last year or earlier this year.

So for one thing you have SF readers "discovering" the books. Then you have long-time fans of the show who aren't aware of the books as another potential audience, and finally you have [ii]new[/i] fans of the series who likewise have no idea that there are books. New fans discover the show every year, and even more are getting hooked thanks to the DVD sets which make it easy for existing fans to entice their friends into watching (since they can do it on their own schedule and without commercials.) So the fan-base is slowly but steadily expanding, and all of these people become potential buyers of the books.

But much depends on how the books are displayed and how they are promoted. I've been in bookstores where the B5 novels are not shelved together, like the Star Wars and Star Trek bookss, but alphabetically by the author's last name in the general "science fiction and fantasy" section. They get lost among thousands of other titles in a situation like that, and a casual fan could easily miss them while browsing, whereas a B5 section would stand out more. "Old" books are not going to get major promotions unless the publisher is trying to piggy-back onto the promotion for some tie-in, like a movie, TV movie or mini-series. So you have "movie editions" of The Lord of the Rings with pictures of the actors on their covers and the like. One thing Del Rey could do (although it would cost a few bucks) is ship cardboard end-cap displays for the books with a "Learn More About the Universe of Babylon 5" theme around the time each season comes out on DVD. Especially in stores that carry both - like Barnes and Noble - the DVDs should promote the novels and the novels should promote the DVDs.

It all seems so obvious.

Regards,

Joe

 

[KoshN]

Just going back to the book subject. I am not a marketing person (I work in IT) but can Dellray really expect books to sell that have been available for many years?

I'd imagine all the people that are likely to buy the books have them, these would be the same people that would want new ones.

It depends on whether or not all the people who would be likely to buy the books, know that the books exist. If not all of those people are online, and therefore know about the existence of the books, they won't be aware that they're missing anything.

I think the plateau that DelRey has reached represents the online savvy people, plus the people the onliners contact (word of mouth sales). If DelRey wants more sales, they have to advertise to the general public.

 

[KoshN]

Re: Morons

Hmmm... "IFH" isn't a mod, then you refer to WB not doing anything about "other mods". Thanks for clearing that up.

Easy there, Joe. He said his English isn't so good. Revise it to say "IFH isn't a mod, and WB isn't doing anything about the other games out there which are mods."



snip

But much depends on how the books are displayed and how they are promoted. I've been in bookstores where the B5 novels are not shelved together, like the Star Wars and Star Trek bookss, but alphabetically by the author's last name in the general "science fiction and fantasy" section.

Oh, so you've been to Barnes & Noble?

They get lost among thousands of other titles in a situation like that, and a casual fan could easily miss them while browsing, whereas a B5 section would stand out more.

Exactly!

"Old" books are not going to get major promotions unless the publisher is trying to piggy-back onto the promotion for some tie-in, like a movie, TV movie or mini-series. So you have "movie editions" of The Lord of the Rings with pictures of the actors on their covers and the like. One thing Del Rey could do (although it would cost a few bucks) is ship cardboard end-cap displays for the books with a "Learn More About the Universe of Babylon 5" theme around the time each season comes out on DVD. Especially in stores that carry both - like Barnes and Noble - the DVDs should promote the novels and the novels should promote the DVDs.

It all seems so obvious.

Let's see, back in August 22, 2001 at 7:59 PM when I suggested something similar to Steve, he replied with:

"The situation with stores is simple--they choose what to do with the space, including display units and posters. Unless the demand for Babylon 5 skyrockets, they're more likely to use that valuable space for more high-profile releases. It's really up to them--as it should be, since they own the stores--and we wouldn't want to produce display materials that are going to end up on the floor of a storage closet."

I guess he expects demand to skyrocket without DelRey doing anything to promote the books.

As JMS has said, these are "stealth books" the way DelRey has (not) promoted them.

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

Re: Morons

When I worked at a bookstore the publishers did exactly what Steve says they don't want to do - they shipped display materials whether we asked for them or not, and the owner decided which ones we'd use and which ones we wouldn't. The ununsed ones went into the back room - although they were sometimes rescued after a couple of weeks if a title really took off, or if our customers weren't interested in some other book that we were giving lots of display space to. So they sent the stuff, we made the decision -- but at least we had the display items on hand if we decided to promote a given book. I'm not sure what Steve would expect us to do to promote a new release if we got the books first and then had to request that the publisher design and produce publicity materials that they didn't already have on hand. By the time they got to us the initial interest in the book might have faded and the display too late to help. Of couree, I worked for an independent, not one of the major chains, and maybe things were just different with us.

Regards,

Joe

 

[Alpha1]

Re: Morons

btw it is not my game. i'm not a dev

 

[GaribaldisHair]

Re: Morons

And not all of the books were issued "years ago". To Dream in the City of Sorrows was either late last year or earlier this year.

Sorry to butt in Joe, but I think the point being made is that Del Rey's release of To Dream in The City of Sorrows was not a new book, but a reissue of a book that had indeed been out for years.

Sure it had different artwork, and I believe there was a little additional material included, but essentially it was the same book that constituted part of the original series of 9 books that were published by the aforementioned Channel 4 in the UK.

I believe it was actually number 9 in the series.

Even an anal-retentive like me, finds it hard to get excited by a reissue of a book I have already owned for several years.

Cheers,

 

[KoshN]

Re: Morons

When I worked at a bookstore the publishers did exactly what Steve says they don't want to do - they shipped display materials whether we asked for them or not, and the owner decided which ones we'd use and which ones we wouldn't. The ununsed ones went into the back room - although they were sometimes rescued after a couple of weeks if a title really took off, or if our customers weren't interested in some other book that we were giving lots of display space to. So they sent the stuff, we made the decision -- but at least we had the display items on hand if we decided to promote a given book.

Sounds like a healthy and flexible way to do things.

I'm not sure what Steve would expect us to do to promote a new release if we got the books first and then had to request that the publisher design and produce publicity materials that they didn't already have on hand. By the time they got to us the initial interest in the book might have faded and the display too late to help.

Exactly. It sounds like cost-cutting to me, and they haven't stopped with the fat, but are now cutting through the muscle and into the bone. Then, they wonder why the books don't sell. Good grief! Promotion is necessary. They want big sales figures but want to do nothing to achieve them. They don't want to spend any money. Well, you have to spend money to make money. Remember, here is the advertising he said that DelRey did:

Wednesday, August 22, 2001 5:19 PM
"We certainly make no secret of these releases--each one is fully spotlighted in the catalog we use to sell our novels into the book stores, and we announce each book via ads appearing in science fiction trade publications like Locus Magazine. We also announce each and every one via our internet newsletter and on our web site, posting sample chapters to attract new readers. And we spread the word via our staff and displays at the major summer conventions, including DragonCon, GenCon, and San Diego ComicCon, with a total attendance of more than 100,000 fans."