Disappointment with season 1 on DVD (not the show, the recording)

[TruePurple]

Being a show I never got to see much of (I've never had cable) and one I have heard so highly of, I purchased season 1 of babylon 5 on DVD.

But theres a problem, ever so often garbage/noise appears on the screen, by this I mean- white dots, dashes, slashes etc. Like when your watching a really old movie, except not nearly as extreme or frequent and always white. When I downloaded a few season 1 episodes online awhile back I don't recall any such noise. Its baffling to think that the purchased DVD's are lower quality then the pirate copies.

I did some checking online, I can't find any other versions of babylon 5 to purchase. That is assuming I can even return the DVD's I bought. I had to open the DVD box and watch some episodes to discover the issue, but by merit of opening the container I believe I have made it unreturnable.

Should I expect this kind of noise on latter seasons of the show? Anyone else experienced this issue?

I think the thing to do is contact the Warner Home Video office closest to where you are.

Something said in another thread regarding a missing disk, where would that be? There is absolutely no information on the packaging, so how would I go about making such a complaint?

Two other complaints on the purchase. One is that I found out after purchasing that it doesn't come with the pilot episode/"movie" of the series- lame.

Second, but this is a complaint of many DVD movies and shows, the packaging. It is wasteful. Why must it be so tall? To match VCR cartridge height, thats just silly.Then the insides are the same, each disk page the same height as the outside even though it really doesn't need to be. From the point of a environmentalists and from the point of weight and ergonomics, even from the point of costs to them and us, this is stupid.

Plus it had that sleeve thing that looks identical to the cover of the plastic container and serves no point except maybe to be extra glossy and texturey, something you might as well just throw away. Especially since using it makes it a more time consuming hassle to get in to play the movie/show dvd.

Oh one last and very minor complaint, the Close Captioning (IE sub-titling) didn't always match up with what was said, as though the CC was based off of script and the actors ad-libed ever so often. I find CC useful when background noise would make you miss words otherwise.(or when certain words are hard to make out)

 

[Jan]

I found this:
Warner Home Video Inc.
4000 Warner Blvd.
Burbank, CA 91522
CA Tel. 818-954-6000
Fax 212-954-7667

I'm pretty sure there are other offices elewhere but you'd have to search as I don't know where you are.

RE: The Closed Captioning, I recall somebody posting to the moderated newsgroup about doing that and that JMS posted later that he'd put them in touch with somebody at the studio to get scripts so I imagine that there may have been some minor changes if they didn't get the final version of the script.

Hope this helps,
Jan

 

[KoshN]

Being a show I never got to see much of (I've never had cable) and one I have heard so highly of, I purchased season 1 of babylon 5 on DVD.

But theres a problem, ever so often garbage/noise appears on the screen, by this I mean- white dots, dashes, slashes etc. Like when your watching a really old movie, except not nearly as extreme or frequent and always white.

In Season 1, and to a lesser extent in Season2, and even a lesser extent in Season 3, there are film imperfections that made it onto the DVDs (At least they're there in my Region 1 DVDs.), because Warner Home Video didn't retouch them to clean up the picture. See, that would have cost money. Season 1 has dust, scratches, a hair on the image (end of Midnight on the Firing Line, at the bar with Ivanova and Talia.), and a strange greenish jagged mark across Benson (the security grunt with the gambling problem, in "And The Sky Full Of Stars") in one frame.

When I downloaded a few season 1 episodes online awhile back I don't recall any such noise. Its baffling to think that the purchased DVD's are lower quality then the pirate copies.

It was probably there, unless the pirates retouched the images (highly unlikely).

I did some checking online, I can't find any other versions of babylon 5 to purchase.

What do you mean "other versions" ? If you mean other DVD Regions, they'll all almost certainly have the same problem, unless Warners in those regions put up the cash :guffaw: to have the stuff cleaned up. Latter seasons have cleaner images because it's newer film that was used to make the DVDs..

That is assuming I can even return the DVD's I bought. I had to open the DVD box and watch some episodes to discover the issue, but by merit of opening the container I believe I have made it unreturnable.

It's no use anyway, because no other copies will be any better. Be glad if your disks arrived on their hubs and without scratches. The original packaging (and possibly the assembly) of the sets in Region 1 was horrendous. Getting a complete set sans scratches required work (buying at a local store and doing disk-for-disk exchanging.). Out of a set of everything B5 and Crusade except the Legend of the Rangers TV pilot, out of 40 discs, 8 were scratched and had to be exchanged. (I never got a "Crusade" with loose or scratched disks, and I've bought four "Crusade" sets. The "Crusade" sets used a better hub design, not great, but definitely better.)

Should I expect this kind of noise on latter seasons of the show? Anyone else experienced this issue?

It gets less frequent and less severe as you get to latter seasons. I think the last imperfection I saw was in Season 2 (an black ink splash across the frame. IIRC, it was a Garibaldi scene. It was like somebody shook a fountain pen at the film. I can't remember if it was on only one frame or on two or three frames in that general area.)

I think the thing to do is contact the Warner Home Video office closest to where you are.

Something said in another thread regarding a missing disk, where would that be? There is absolutely no information on the packaging, so how would I go about making such a complaint?

I always get that taken care of before I leave the store where I bought the DVDs. After my bad experiences with loose, scratched Babylon 5 disks buying my Season 3 from Amazon[1]), I never buy Babylon 5 DVD sets except at a local store (or order online, e.g. from Best Buy for a SALE PRICE, but pick them up at a local Best Buy store.). I tell the store people about the loose. scratched disk problem, open the sets and examine the disks carefully, and in front of the store employees, and exchange disk-for-disk NOT set-for-set. You can never tell which disks are going to be loose and scratched. By doing this, you also make sure that you got all of the disks. When I bought "House M.D." Season Four, the first set has two Disk 2's, a Disk 3 and a Disk 4 (NO Disk 1.). Got it taken care of by disk-for-disk exchange before I left the store.

Two other complaints on the purchase. One is that I found out after purchasing that it doesn't come with the pilot episode/"movie" of the series- lame.

Not lame. No big deal. The B5 movies are in the Babylon 5 Movie Collection (which does not include the Legend of the Rangers Pilot/TV Movie (and I view that as a good thing.) or the "Babylon 5 - The Lost Tales" Direct-to-DVD (a single DVD of two 36 minute episodes) which is available separately.


[1]
e.g. from my initial Season 3 set (Disks 4 & 5 froze and skipped all
over the place.*):
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd61/KoshN/Babylon 5/b5s3discs4and5asarrived.jpg

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd61/KoshN/Babylon 5/b5s3disc4scratches.jpg

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd61/KoshN/Babylon 5/b5s3disc5scratches.jpg

That was as it arrived from Amazon.com. When Amazon would not exchange
disk-for-disk, i.e. just disks 4 & 5 (Disks 1, 2, 3, and 6 were fine.),
I returned the whole set for a refund. Then, I went to a local discount
store, bought B5 Season 3 and made sure that all of the disks were OK
before I left the store. The first set at the store also had a couple
of scratched disks, which I exchanged at the customer service counter.
When customer service opened a new set to exchange disk-for disk, one of
the disks was loose and rolled off the counter and across the floor, to
which I said "See?!"). I bought all subsequent B5 season sets locally
or in a way that I could pick them up at a local store.

Hopefully, the new, slimline packaging is better.

 

[TruePurple]

Thank you for the information. Still thinking on things right now, but for the moment-

How do you tell if you have the "slimmer version"? It will lack some kind of book that the other version had?

Looking at the disks now, I see some marks on them that I think are some kind of scratches or marks, especially the last disk. How do I know if its enough to effect the viewing without trying to view the whole disk?{I don't want to spoil things and view episodes out of order)

It was probably there, unless the pirates retouched the images (highly unlikely).

I think they used a different source, I remember some kind of watermark in the corner, I think it was taken off of cable or something, (if cable showing of the season have that garbage too, then maybe recorded off it before these started showing up) but maybe I am thinking of something else. Or perhaps it was just so small on my small PC screen that I missed it. The only way to know for sure is to see if I still have them on my hdd somewhere, or can find it to redownload it.

When was season 1 originally made, 1994? How did they keep the film that it would get scratched/damaged like that? Why couldn't they digitalize it then? I don't think that was unheard of in 1994.

Not lame. No big deal. The B5 movies are in the Babylon 5 Movie Collection (which does not include the Legend of the Rangers Pilot/TV Movie (and I view that as a good thing.) or the "Babylon 5 - The Lost Tales" Direct-to-DVD (a single DVD of two 36 minute episodes) which is available separately.

Not a big deal, but definitely lame. The key thing here that makes it most lame is, to call a series episode like that, a movie. You can just tell they aren't movies because the structure is very different then a real movie. Series episodes, even if they do call it a movie, still run like episodes. Little is wrapped up, alot of introductions and little resolution, other basic structural differences that are hard to put a finger on. It is much different then real movies based on the same series. Also of course episodes are made part of the story, usually starting or resolving (if they call the last episodes of a series a movie) it, where as a real series movie is usually set a bit outside the series storyline. A pilot like that would likely help give appreciated exposition to the series which makes it absurd to not be included like that.

How many other "movies" in that "movie" collection, aren't really movies like that? Is there some kind of indication on the other movies, when you should watch them? Where they fall into the series storyline? As in, after what episode/season they fall into?

 

[Jade Jaguar]

But theres a problem, ever so often garbage/noise appears on the screen, by this I mean- white dots, dashes, slashes etc. Like when your watching a really old movie, except not nearly as extreme or frequent and always white.

... but by merit of opening the container I believe I have made it unreturnable.

Unless you can post a screen cap, can you post the name of a title, and the exact time where you see a bad one? That way, we could look at our discs, and see if we see the same, or if your particular disc has a problem.

Most DVD places will let you return defective DVDs, after opening, but you can only get a replacement copy, not credit to use on something different.

 

[KoshN]

Thank you for the information. Still thinking on things right now, but for the moment-

How do you tell if ....?

I'm putting together answers to all of your questions, but I got sidetracked by some other projects. Should be able to finish it and post it Tuesday.

 

[TruePurple]

Another thing that happens on occasion, a uneven line appears randomly along with (and in front of) the subtitling, usually closer to the bottom. That can't be because of the original footage quality, could a minor imperfection on the disk surface be causing that? Or is it just another example of cheap crappy copy mastering?

And furthermore regarding pilots being called "movies" I am disappointed that what is part of the story isn't included in the series, I would be disappointed if I purchased a "movie" only to find a episode instead. Miscatagorizing something like that and misgrouping it accordingly just sets up people for disappointment unless someones going to buy everything anyway.(and even then its nice to have things grouped right)

 

[KoshN]

Thank you for the information. Still thinking on things right now, but for the moment-

(My comments apply to Region 1 USA DVD Sets only.)

How do you tell if you have the "slimmer version"? It will lack some kind of book that the other version had?

The original packaging was like a book and measured 7-5/8" x 5-7/16" x 1-9/16" with three disk pages each, each page measuring 7/16" thick, per Season Set (6 DVDs) or Movie Collection Set (5 DVDs). The disk pages are made of hard plastic. These sets also contained a booklet that described the episodes or movies in the set. See pictures.

My Season 3 DVD Set as it arrived in the mail from Amazon.
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd61/KoshN/Babylon 5/DSCN3730.jpg

My Babylon 5 and Crusade DVD Collection (including the replacement packaging that I carry it in. Season 1 shown.)
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd61/KoshN/Babylon 5/DSCN3738.jpg

Babylon 5 Season 1 Hub Close-up (original packaging)
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd61/KoshN/Babylon 5/DSCN3730.jpg

Babylon 5 Season 1 Hub Close-up (replacement packaging)
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd61/KoshN/Babylon 5/DSCN3742.jpg

Crusade DVD Set Hub Close-up
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd61/KoshN/B5-Crusade/DSCN3735.jpg


I have never seen the new Babylon 5 slim packaging, either in person or online. When I was last in Best Buy (Monroeville, PA) on November 12th, they had no Babylon 5 sets of any kind. However, if it's like most slim packaging, the material of the disk pages is usually softer than the original B5 hard plastic and more pliable, ....more like polypropylene (like the Stargate SG-1, Criminal Minds, Monk, Firefly slimsets, or a book type design like the replacement packaging pictured above and The Mentalist slimsets.), and the surface of the material is smooth and not likely to scratch anything.

Looking at the disks now, I see some marks on them that I think are some kind of scratches or marks, especially the last disk. How do I know if its enough to effect the viewing without trying to view the whole disk?(I don't want to spoil things and view episodes out of order)

First of all, realize that we're talking about two different kinds of marks, first the physical imperfections on the DVD read surface that can cause skipping, freezing, and could be bad enough to make the DVD unplayable AND second, the imperfections in the image on the screen which Warner Home Video never had cleaned up/retouched, e.g. dust and hairs on the film, ink splashes on the film, scratches in the film, and what looks like a film processing error (the strange, jagged greenish mark horizontally across Benson in "And the Sky Full of Stars"). The first kind of defect can show up on any DVD, but regarding B5 and Crusade, is most likely to show up in B5 Season 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5 Season Sets in the original Region 1 packaging or the B5 Movie Collection Set in the original Region 1 packaging. The second kind of defect is most prevalent in B5 Season 1, and the defects get less numerous and less severe as you go from Season 2 to Season 5 and the movie collection.

Regarding scratches on the DVD read surface, short, light, radial scratches (i.e. straight scratches that are perpendicular to the direction of rotation), are not bad. Long, deep scratches in the direction of rotation are the worst. Those arc-like scratches on my Season 3 DVDs:

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd61/KoshN/Babylon 5/b5s3disc4scratches.jpg

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd61/KoshN/Babylon 5/b5s3disc5scratches.jpg

....are probably what caused most of the skipping and freezing on those disks.

It was probably there, unless the pirates retouched the images (highly unlikely).

I think they used a different source, I remember some kind of watermark in the corner, I think it was taken off of cable or something, (if cable showing of the season have that garbage too, then maybe recorded off it before these started showing up) but maybe I am thinking of something else. Or perhaps it was just so small on my small PC screen that I missed it. The only way to know for sure is to see if I still have them on my hdd somewhere, or can find it to redownload it.

...or you could watch from a legit source (Hulu?), or from legit DVDs. Was the image 4:3 or 16:9? If 16:9, it's from the Sci-Fi Channel commissioned pseudo-widescreen version and is the same as what's on the Warner Home Video Region 1 DVDs. All stuff from that master will have the same second kind of defect as the DVDs. If it's 4:3, then it came from the 4:3 master that was aired from 1993 to 1998 in syndication and on TNT, before the Sci-Fi Channel commissioned pseudo-widescreen master was made. The 4:3 stuff is cleaner than the 16:9. I guess they took better care (cleaned for dust & hairs.) when they made the 4:3 master, and the film was in better shape then (no scratches and ink splotches).


I say "pseudo-widescreen" because while the live action was widescreen, all of the CGI or Composite CGI (live action with CGI) scenes were from the 4:3 CGI, which was then top & bottom cropped and then enlarged until the image covered the left and right edges of the 16:9 frame. Alternatively, you can think of it as the 4:3 CGI image enlarged until the image covered the left and right edges of the 16:9 frame, and what was at the top & bottom overflowed the 16:9 frame and was lost.

See pictures.

Laserdisc 4:3 CGI vs. Sci-Fi Channel/DVD Pseudo-widescreen CGI
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd61/KoshN/Babylon 5/B5fswscomp.jpg

The Journey from Super35 Film and 4:3 CGI to 4:3 B5 & Crusade to Pseudo-widescreen DVD
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd61/KoshN/Babylon 5/b5wscomparison.jpg

When was season 1 originally made, 1994? How did they keep the film that it would get scratched/damaged like that? Why couldn't they digitalize it then? I don't think that was unheard of in 1994.

Yes, Season 1 was made in 1994. How did they keep the film that it got damaged by water and rats? I would guess, carelessly. Why couldn't they digitize it in 1994? What, so there'd be a backup of what was on film? 1. It would've cost money , and these people are loathe to spend money on anything Babylon 5. They have no faith in Babylon 5 and constantly underestimate it's worth and ability to generate income. 2. They probably would've cheaped-out and not scanned it at a high enough resolution. 3. These numbnuts would've probably lost the backup, just like they lost all 5+ years worth of Babylon 5 & Crusade CGI files.

Not lame. No big deal. The B5 movies are in the Babylon 5 Movie Collection (which does not include the Legend of the Rangers Pilot/TV Movie (and I view that as a good thing.) or the "Babylon 5 - The Lost Tales" Direct-to-DVD (a single DVD of two 36 minute episodes) which is available separately.

Not a big deal, but definitely lame.

The Babylon 5 pilot/TV movie and Season were separated by one full year, and many changes took place between the pilot and Season 1. With some pilots (e.g. Firefly's pilot), the pilot and the episodes look the same (same weapons, same make-up, same characters, etc.). That is not the case with Babylon 5. Going from "The Gathering" to "Midnight on the Firing Line." the hand weapons changed both in the look of the weapon, weapon sound, and weapon projectile look. The look, sound and sex of Delenn changed drastically. The look of G'Kar also changed (coloring less severe). A lot of the more Star Wars bar scene aliens were GONE, and more were phased out as Season 1 went on. Takashima was GONE. The actor who played Geurra ( a C&C Earthforce officer or enlisted person) became Mr. Morden, the Shadow thrall. In "The Gathering," a whole Vorlon fleet had its weapons trained on Babylon 5, when all that would be needed to destroy Babylon 5 would have been one Vorlon Transport.

The key thing here that makes it most lame is, to call a series episode like that, a movie. You can just tell they aren't movies because the structure is very different then a real movie. Series episodes, even if they do call it a movie, still run like episodes. Little is wrapped up, alot of introductions and little resolution, other basic structural differences that are hard to put a finger on. It is much different then real movies based on the same series. Also of course episodes are made part of the story, usually starting or resolving (if they call the last episodes of a series a movie) it, where as a real series movie is usually set a bit outside the series storyline. A pilot like that would likely help give appreciated exposition to the series which makes it absurd to not be included like that.

IMHO, you're making a mountain out of a molehill. A pilot, by its very nature sets things up for the Season 1. However, in Babylon 5's case, they're not really a good fit together. A pilot is also where a lot of stuff is tried, and the not so good stuff is tossed. "The Gathering" (pilot) and "Midnight on the Firing Line" (Season 1 Episode 1) just do not look good next to each other. There are too many jarring differences. So, it's good that they're not in the same DVD set.

How many other "movies" in that "movie" collection, aren't really movies like that? Is there some kind of indication on the other movies, when you should watch them? Where they fall into the series storyline? As in, after what episode/season they fall into?

There is an order on "The Lurkers Guide to Babylon 5" called the Master List, which puts the movies where they should be watched in the series.

"The Lurkers Guide to Babylon 5" Main Page:
http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/lurker.html

Episode List (B5 grouped together, movies grouped together, Crusade grouped together, etc.):
http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/countries/us/eplist.html

[Size=+1]Master List:[/size]
http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/countries/master/eplist.html


There is some controversy about where "In the Beginning" should be watched. "In the Beginning" tells the story of the Earth/Minbari War of 2245-2248, BUT it is told via flashbacks by a certain character in 2278. It also includes some important events from 2278. So, I think it is best viewed immediately before Season 5 Episode 22 (2281).

 

[KoshN]

Another thing that happens on occasion, a uneven line appears randomly along with (and in front of) the subtitling, usually closer to the bottom. That can't be because of the original footage quality, could a minor imperfection on the disk surface be causing that? Or is it just another example of cheap crappy copy mastering?

Since I've never noticed that in my Warner Home Video Region 1 DVD sets, I'd say that's cheap crappy copy mastering. That's not something that disk, read surface, damage would cause.

 

[KoshN]

Well.........

Has ANYBODY seen the new packaging, or bought sets in the new packaging? Can anybody contribute pictures like mine, but of the new packaging, or is this new packaging thing a silly rumor?

Sheesh, you could hear a pin drop in here.

 

[GaribaldisHair]

Not a big deal, but definitely lame. The key thing here that makes it most lame is, to call a series episode like that, a movie. You can just tell they aren't movies because the structure is very different then a real movie. Series episodes, even if they do call it a movie, still run like episodes. Little is wrapped up, alot of introductions and little resolution, other basic structural differences that are hard to put a finger on. It is much different then real movies based on the same series. Also of course episodes are made part of the story, usually starting or resolving (if they call the last episodes of a series a movie) it, where as a real series movie is usually set a bit outside the series storyline. A pilot like that would likely help give appreciated exposition to the series which makes it absurd to not be included like that.

How many other "movies" in that "movie" collection, aren't really movies like that? Is there some kind of indication on the other movies, when you should watch them? Where they fall into the series storyline? As in, after what episode/season they fall into?

Just to pick up on the pilot issue, and to use the same example as KoshN did ... the "pilot" of Firefly is not really a pilot at all, but a series premiere. The series had already been greenlit and this was the introductory stuff to rest of the season. In B5's case, it was a genuine Pilot, a genuine, let's do this movie, see how it works and then decide whether to go for a series. There was then a gap of a whole year before the series sees the light of day.

In the UK, we didn't even get to see the pilot first, we went straight into Midnight on the Firing Line, and the pilot was shown as a standalone, Sunday afternoon movie sometime around the later part of season 1's original airing.

It does set quite a bit of stuff up, but it also stands alone very well as a movie as opposed to it being a simple introductory episode. The changes do however make it quite different from season 1, so putting it in with the other TV movies makes a lot more sense (and the updated version produced for TNT is a big improvement on the original).

As far as the other movies are concerned, whilst the quality varies they do all stand alone quite nicely outside the show's continuity and can be viewed as complete stories in and of themselves. Likewise, viewing them is not essential to following the story arcs of the main series.

The one exception to that (IMO) is In The Beginning, which is the best of the movies and ties most directly into the show's main story arcs.

My opinions on the others ...

Thirdspace is pretty good, set around a third of the way through the fourth season of the show but essentially isolated completely from it. The River of Souls is OK, but not great, and set after the penultimate, but before the last, episode of season 5 and A Call To Arms is great (my second favourite), set 5 years after the penultimate episode of season 5 and segues between Babylon 5 and the follow up series Crusade.

I believe there is a good reason why my two favourite B5 TV movies are the two most closely tied in with the ongoing story arcs.