"do not kill the one who is already dead" niggle

[themaninbetween]

I have a bit of a beef with the theory that the "one who is already dead" is "referring to Sheridan, by saving him and Delenn they in turn promise to free Centauri Prime." Sure, Sheridan is for all intents and purpouses "dead", but I can't see how Londo "killed" him, even metaphroicly, seeing he allowed him and Delenn to escape Centauri Prime.

Could anyone further explain the Sheridan="one who is already dead" theory?

 

[Jan]

Sheridan died at Z'ha'dum but Lorien 'breathed on the embers' and he came back. That makes him the one who is already dead. Londo did follow that path to salvation by *not* killing Sheridan and he also (IMO) surrendered himself to that which he most feared by either facing/apologizing to G'Kar or by accepting the Keeper.

Jan

 

[Mike G]

We have had conversations about this on these boards before, some people think that "the one who is dead" could also refer to Morden, since he was thought to be dead. Personally, I think that the fact that the prophecy calls him "The One" is significant since Sheridan is sometimes called "The One".

 

[babylonfan]

Another interpretation is the the profecy relates to Morden, who had been "repaired" after the nuke. Londo did kill Morden, and as a consequence the Drakh invaded Centauri Prime.

Funny show B5, way too many angles to look at it!

 

[Galahad]

Ah but was Sheridan only "mostly dead"?

Ah how different Babylon 5 could have been if Lorien had been played by Bill Crystal!

 

[bonehead]

I have a bit of a beef with the theory that the "one who is already dead" is "referring to Sheridan, by saving him and Delenn they in turn promise to free Centauri Prime." Sure, Sheridan is for all intents and purpouses "dead", but I can't see how Londo "killed" him, even metaphroicly, seeing he allowed him and Delenn to escape Centauri Prime.

Could anyone further explain the Sheridan="one who is already dead" theory?

The seer said that in order to avoid the darkness he "must not kill the one who is already dead". And that's what he did: by not killing Sheridan and letting him go, he had the Alliance rid Centauri Prime from the darkness that was holding it.

The other possibility is that it referred to Morden: if Londo hadn't killed him and blown up the Shadows, the Drakh wouldn't have gone to Centauri Prime. So by killing "the one who is already dead", he failed to abide by the instructions and therefore failed to avoid the darkness.

Pick your favorite.

 

[fisheggs]

And Centari Prime would have been ashes. The Vorlon planet Killer. Which would definitely hit an active Shadow base on the way out.:beer:

 

[bonehead]

Not quite - in fact killing Morden and the Shadows didn't make a difference because the Vorlon planet killer was still going to blow up Centauri Prime anyway because Londo was there. The only reason the planet survived was because the ships were recalled to Coriana 6 when the 3-way battle started.

 

[raw_bean]

Meaning that the Vorlons were never going to destroy Centauri Prime, given that the seer can see the future. The difference that killing Morden & the Shadows made is that it brought down the Drakh on Centauri Prime in retribution. By surrendering himself to his greatest fear (allowing G'Kar to kill him) he finally saved his world and himself.

It works either way:

he failed to not kill Morden as the one who was already dead, so he had to surrender to his greatest fear, or:

he was going to fail to not kill Sheridan as the one who was already dead when hi Keeper woke up, so he surrendered to his greatest fear to prevent that.

 

[GaribaldisHair]

Hasn't JMS already stated that 'the one who is already dead' does indeed refer to Sheridan ... or am I thinking of something else?

If he did, that would seem to negate any other discussion of the matter.

 

[hypatia]

I thought the same thing. But Jan was here yesterday. Wouldn't she have mentioned it?

 

[hypatia]

Sheridan died at Z'ha'dum but Lorien 'breathed on the embers' and he came back. That makes him the one who is already dead. Londo did follow that path to salvation by *not* killing Sheridan and he also (IMO) surrendered himself to that which he most feared by either facing/apologizing to G'Kar or by accepting the Keeper.

Jan

That makes the most sense, but then why wouldn't it have been 2 chances, not 3, that the seer mentioned?

If the one chance could only work by also taking the next, wouldn't that be considered one chance, not two?

Is it just JMS's consistant theme of the number 3 here?

 

[Jan]

I thought the same thing. But Jan was here yesterday. Wouldn't she have mentioned it?

I'm sure that JMS did say that, definitely, but my memory tells me that it was probably in one of the script books and I've been away from them. I prefer to be able to produce the quote whenever possible.

Jan

 

[KoshFan]

Yes, I recall JMS saying that -- because I recall thinking that my Morden theory still made more sense, no matter what the Great Maker says.

 

[Jan]

Found it. One post, at least:

From: J. Michael Straczynski <71016.1644@compuserve.com>
Subject: The Man In Between
To: CIS
Date: 3/9/1997 7:22:00 PM

Meryl Yourish <103470.2703@compuserve.com> asks:
> Was Lorien the man in between?
> Was Sheridan the man in between?
> Was Justin the man in between?
> Okay, if you won't answer those three, then will you answer the
> following? Was Refa the one who was already dead?

Refa was never already dead, so it can't be him. Dead is dead,
and the only one who fits that description would be Sheridan.

 

[Jan]

Yes, I recall JMS saying that -- because I recall thinking that my Morden theory still made more sense, no matter what the Great Maker says.

I'm pretty sure that it was established in one of the trilogies that Morden *didn't* die on Z'ha'dum (Mac? Help me out here.) so he couldn't be the one who was already dead. Been a long time since I read the trilogies, though.

Jan

 

[KoshFan]

Well, yeah, Morden never died (except in the eyes of the EA when he "died" on the Icarus). I confess I'm doing my reasoning backwards.

Londo is redeemed by the end of the story, yes? On this we can all agree. The questions are, when and how?

Lady Morella tells Londo that he has three chances to avoid the fire that awaits him. He must save the eye, not kill the one, surrender himself, yadda yadda, we've heard it. The point is, he needs all three chances if he blows the first two. So if he did not kill the one who was already dead, then he was saved right there and then, and he never had to surrender himself to his greatest fear. And I have never yet heard anyone convincingly argue that he didn't do that at some point.

I mean, think about it. We have a story, a character is told that he gets three chances at something, the third chance is extra-special and extra-sacrificial, and he gets it right on try two? It's against all the laws of narrative in Western culture!

So Londo must have botched his second chance... and as he did not kill Sheridan, Morden must have been the one who was already dead. Which leads us to the simple conclusion that JMS goofed somehow, either in telling the story or in telling us about it. I prefer to think that he told the story properly, just as it had to be, and simply misspoke when he was discussing it later.

 

[Elipsis]

I have a bit of a beef with the theory that the "one who is already dead" is "referring to Sheridan, by saving him and Delenn they in turn promise to free Centauri Prime." Sure, Sheridan is for all intents and purpouses "dead", but I can't see how Londo "killed" him, even metaphroicly, seeing he allowed him and Delenn to escape Centauri Prime.

Could anyone further explain the Sheridan="one who is already dead" theory?

But he claims he failed that. From what I gathered, it takes a long time to get out of the Centari Palace, and he knew that his keeper would wake up and finish the job long before they made it out. He knew that he was about to kill Sheridan, so he moved on to option 3.

 

[mattikake]

I had a big theory on Lady Morella's prophecy as well,... until I read (I think) on the Lurkers guide that JMS stated 'the eye that does not see' is G'Kar, 'the one who is already dead' is Sheridan and 'surrender to your greatest fear' is G'Kar strangling Londo at the end.

Kinda kills the fun really doesn't it?

The only question I have is if Londo redeems himself right at the very end (and yes, that doesn't track with Sheridan being saved and I too liked my thoughts that Morden was the one who was already dead) who is actually to say the Alliance DID help the Centauri? The only evidence you have for any of this is in a future episode to this point in time and that is SiL. Virr is there, but there is no reference to any darkness with him, but no reference that the Alliance has liberated the Centauri from the Drakh either. Virr met Sheridan just as Londo met Sheridan after the Drakh too over - no hints.

 

[bonehead]

who is actually to say the Alliance DID help the Centauri?

Well, that was the deal he cut with Sheridan - releasing him in return for Sheridan helping free his world. Of course you can always assume Sheridan decided to break that deal afterwards, but knowing the character I doubt it.