So you believe you know the events in the story better than the guy who created those events in the first place? Wow!
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"do not kill the one who is already dead" niggle
- Thread starter themaninbetween
- Start date
So you believe you know the events in the story better than the guy who created those events in the first place? Wow!
^ It just means it's not as well written as you think. I think that's just a feature of one mind writing 5 years of script and that everyone has a different perception of things. There's bound to be a few holes, especially if some of it is down to ones own interpretation.
It's just annoying when you think you have it, then the writer explains their perception and it doesn't quite work out the same as yours.
Look what happened when George Lucas tried to write the 3 prequels to Star Wars. Inconsistencies galore! Yet he had been writing the original story probably a similar length of time as JMS.
It's just annoying when you think you have it, then the writer explains their perception and it doesn't quite work out the same as yours.
Look what happened when George Lucas tried to write the 3 prequels to Star Wars. Inconsistencies galore! Yet he had been writing the original story probably a similar length of time as JMS.
Jan
Regular
That might be part of it but why does everybody assume that Londo would stop striving for salvation just because he was pretty sure that he'd fulfilled one of the prophesied chances? I sure wouldn't want to bet that I'd guessed right if my eternal damnation depended on it, would you? Remember what Vir said?
It's also nice to think that something fundamental really changed for Londo when he almost died in 'The Very Long Night...'.
Jan
Jan
Regular
You mean like the one about Morden not having died? If he didn't die, he *can't* be the one in the prophecy.
Jan
Just an observation: spoken language rarely includes "quotes".
If in the script book it reads " Save the "One" who is dead" or "Save the one who is "Dead." then...:beer:. IMHO, Prophesy is supposed to be "nigling".:devil:But seriously, Sheridan is the "one who is dead". Though with the right emphasis, it could be Kosh.
KoshFan
Regular
The Story is always greater than the one who tell it... and I say that as a man who's always telling stories.
Telepath
Member
Perfectly right. Still, I haven't given this prophecy much thought before reading this thread, and I rather like the Morden interpretation. It is somewhat ominous, and could be metaphorical - that the old Morden died at Z'ha'dum, since no one returns from there and lives (the same). You could also throw the Minbari rebirth perspective into this, and Morden has "died" ;-)
...except that Morden comes back pretty much the same, albeit crispy. I think the point of the 'no-one coming back the same' thing is covered the *first* time you go. Once Morden's been irrevocably corrupted/coerced by the Shadows, I'm pretty sure he can come and go without any major lifestyle changes!
GaribaldisHair
Regular
It seems to me that chances 2 and 3 are linked at the hip. Londo surrendered himself to be killed by G'Kar (option 3) precisely because he knew that the keeper would awake and prevent Sheridan from escaping (thereby blowing chance number 2).
In other words, for him to successfully not kill the one who is already dead, he had to also surrender himself to his greatest fear.
Although Lady Morella's prophecy certainly made it sound more of an either/or situation, she did say that if he fails chances one and two then he must surrender himself to his greatest fear. She just didn't say that not surrendering himself would lead directly to the failure of chance number 2.
However, if fantasy literature has taught us anything, it is that prophecy can be an imprecise guide to the future.
In other words, for him to successfully not kill the one who is already dead, he had to also surrender himself to his greatest fear.
Although Lady Morella's prophecy certainly made it sound more of an either/or situation, she did say that if he fails chances one and two then he must surrender himself to his greatest fear. She just didn't say that not surrendering himself would lead directly to the failure of chance number 2.
However, if fantasy literature has taught us anything, it is that prophecy can be an imprecise guide to the future.
Jan
Regular
If you want to stretch the logic that far you might as well say that he 'died' when he lost his wife. Morden didn't get transformed on Z'ha'dum, he was just open to becoming their servant.
Jan
hypatia
Regular
Londo's killing Morden wasn't one of his missed chances, as I see it. What got Londo that keeper was his blowing up of the Southern continent to wipe out the Drakh, wasn't it? Killing Morden had nothing directly to do with it.
^ Yep. That's exactly what I said. Officially, the one who is already dead is Sheridan. Surrendering yourself to your greatest fear is G'Kar killing Londo.
I think the point is you have to see it from a centauri perspective, only, not a B5 big picture perspective. The eye that does not see [the greatness of the centauri] is G'kar. Londo saves the eye much earlier on, though at which point is debateable. Too many inconsistencies, too many interpretations.
Great!
I think the point is you have to see it from a centauri perspective, only, not a B5 big picture perspective. The eye that does not see [the greatness of the centauri] is G'kar. Londo saves the eye much earlier on, though at which point is debateable. Too many inconsistencies, too many interpretations.
Great!
Given how Sheridan spends so much time in 'In the Shadow of Z'ha'dum' running around shouting at everybody about how Morden is already dead, legally speaking, I assumed it was Morden right up until JMS contradicted it. And I think I agree with KoshFan that it makes more sense for it to be Morden, since Londo does actually kill him, and after failing to save G'Kar's eye this sets him nicely upon the path towards his one final chance for redemption.
But the guy who wrote it is JMS, and the only one who fits that description would be JMS.
But the guy who wrote it is JMS, and the only one who fits that description would be JMS.
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Maybe it could be Morden as 'not kill the man who is already dead' and that Londo missed this chance for redemption too; if his final 2 acts of not killing Sheridan and then letting G'Kar kill him is the part of the SAME decision. Londo gets his keeper pist so can free Sheridan, but in order to keep this a secret from the Drakh he must get G'Kar to kill him AND the keeper. So freeing Sheridan is not 'not kill the man who is already dead', as these 2 final decisions are what make up the single 'surrendering himself to his greatest fear' act... is just that he happened to not kill Sheridan in the process.
I guess you could also argue that it was the keeper that wanted to kill Sheridan at the time too, it was not actually Londo's decision.
I guess you could also argue that it was the keeper that wanted to kill Sheridan at the time too, it was not actually Londo's decision.
Jan
Regular
It doesn't matter who decided to kill Sheridan any more than it mattered who decided to pluck out G'Kar's eye. What mattered was what Londo did or didn't do to save each.
Jan
hypatia
Regular
I still don't understand why people think that Londo's not killing Morden would somehow have redeemed Londo. Killing Londo isn't wheal sealed Centauri Prime's fate, either, it was the blowing up of the Southern Continent. And if Londo hadn't done that (and fate stepped in), I hardly see him coming out being, in any way, redeemed.
mandragora
Member
Quick hello, as I'm new here (but not at all to B5)- sorry for jumping in like this
I always thought that the "you must save the eye that does not see" wasn't referring literally to G'Kar's eye (for if that were the case, Londo wouldn't have saved an eye that "does not see" - G'Kar's eye did see before it was plucked out - also I don't see what would have been different if he had saved it), but rather metaphorically speaking to G'Kar himself. The point he saved him I think was the bargain they made when G'Kar was captured.
As for the "one who was already dead" I also think it was Sheridan, whom he saved by allowing them to flee.
What's also puzzling me is the part about "You still have three opportunities to avoid the fire that waits for you at the end of your journey. [...] Now if you have failed all the others, that is your final chance for redemption." I'm not at all sure about the final part: this could be either accepting the Keeper, or letting himself be killed by G'Kar, or even apologising to G'Kar in "the long night of L.M." I think it's most likely the Keeper.
What is odd is indeed that according to this interpretation, he didn't quander his chances No. 3 and 4, however, I think it also depends what is meant by "the fire that awaits you at the end of your journey" and "your final chance for redemption". If he hadn't saved G'Kar and Sheridan, what would have happened? He would have still accepted the Keeper. I don't quite understand the meaning of the acceptance of the Keeper, though. How does accepting the Keeper mean he is redeemed? Or is it merely that he is accepting the price for his poor choices, that he ends up a slave in the end?
I always thought that the "you must save the eye that does not see" wasn't referring literally to G'Kar's eye (for if that were the case, Londo wouldn't have saved an eye that "does not see" - G'Kar's eye did see before it was plucked out - also I don't see what would have been different if he had saved it), but rather metaphorically speaking to G'Kar himself. The point he saved him I think was the bargain they made when G'Kar was captured.
As for the "one who was already dead" I also think it was Sheridan, whom he saved by allowing them to flee.
What's also puzzling me is the part about "You still have three opportunities to avoid the fire that waits for you at the end of your journey. [...] Now if you have failed all the others, that is your final chance for redemption." I'm not at all sure about the final part: this could be either accepting the Keeper, or letting himself be killed by G'Kar, or even apologising to G'Kar in "the long night of L.M." I think it's most likely the Keeper.
What is odd is indeed that according to this interpretation, he didn't quander his chances No. 3 and 4, however, I think it also depends what is meant by "the fire that awaits you at the end of your journey" and "your final chance for redemption". If he hadn't saved G'Kar and Sheridan, what would have happened? He would have still accepted the Keeper. I don't quite understand the meaning of the acceptance of the Keeper, though. How does accepting the Keeper mean he is redeemed? Or is it merely that he is accepting the price for his poor choices, that he ends up a slave in the end?
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Galahad
Regular
Hello... welcome aboard. That's something that has intrigued me too... about saving G'Kar and not his literal eye.
Maybe the script was originally meant to say something like:
"you have a threefold opportunity to find redemption" not three separate chances.
That would then sew up things pretty nicely... dontcha think?
Maybe the script was originally meant to say something like:
"you have a threefold opportunity to find redemption" not three separate chances.
That would then sew up things pretty nicely... dontcha think?
