Do You Like Byron?

[Truth_Seeker]

Let's not forget that the Narns exterminated their telepaths and spent many generations trying to recreate them.

Maneth, didn't the Shadows exterminate the Narn telepaths because they were a threath to their ships during the previous Shadow War?

 

[vacantlook]

...The telepaths of other species, what little we have seen of them, don't seem to have this desire to mistreat the non-telepaths of their species, as human ones seem to. So they're not a threat in the same way, and thus get better treatment....

Of course the other side of that circle is that most human telepaths have such a problem with human non-telepaths because of how non-telepaths have treated telepaths. When you're ostracized nearly constantly by the bulk of society, you tend to grow angry at and resentful toward those ostracizing you.

...Let's not forget that the Narns exterminated their telepaths and spent many generations trying to recreate them.

The Shadows were the ones behind the drive to eliminate Narn telepaths since Shadows, or at least their technology, was vulnerable to telepathic interference and the Shadows used Narn as a base during the previous war.

Oops, I see TS got to this point first.

 

[Truth_Seeker]

The telepaths of other species, what little we have seen of them, don't seem to have this desire to mistreat the non-telepaths of their species, as human ones seem to. So they're not a threat in the same way, and thus get better treatment. At least the Minbari ones do, because they have a system that's as close to communism (community more important and stronger than a single individual, no matter how important) as one can get while still functioning.

Yes Minbari telepaths according to Delenn are treated very well by their own people.

I think that we don't know much about the way other races treat their telepaths but I think that maybe the Centauri telepaths have some restrictions about places they can go and things they can do like gambling for example.The Centauri like to spy and collect dirt on one another so it could be dangerous for telepaths to be able to scan everyone.

 

[RMcD]

I think the whole idea of asking for a homeworld for the human telepaths was rediculous.

A ship-doable.A small space station-difficult bot doable.But an entire planet-that's just impossible.If a planet has the right conditions for human life it's probably already inhabited.Even if there's no intelligent life on it the colonization would interfere with the natural evolution of this planet which is at least immoral.

I believe the Markab homeworld was recently vacated..

Besides, we saw at least two earthlike planets in Crusade with tiny human colonies on them.

 

[Chilli]

Haven't we had this discussion before?

I stick to what I've said from the beginning: Though Byron's cause was just, he was suck a complete idiot in his pursuit of it that no, I do not like him. Not only due to him being annoying

Stupid, mostly, in that his own (justified) anger made him leash out in every direction, when he should have been looking for allies. Delenn and Franklin being two obvious people who could have been very strong allies of his cause, had he handled the situation better.

His treatment of Franklin, more than anything, proved how much he was driven by anger. Making him not only a poor leader, but also a massive hypocrite.

I don't think this makes him a badly written character, as I a lot of these characteristics are quite realistic. It just doesn't make him very enjoyable, for me.

 

[Garovorkin]

Bryon was not an evil person , Bester was. Bester had no conscience when it came to Non telepaths and one could argue that Byon at first did not either, But he had enough of a conscience to at least do something, Bester would loose no sleep over killing Mundanes.But even here with regard to telepaths Bester was a liittle Hypocritical, Look at the fact that Talis most likely ended up dead, he seem ed to not have much concern for his fate, look at the way he treated Lyta, she agreed to sign over her Body to him when she died in exchange for money she needed. I would image that Bester and company hung on to ever Telepath virus, found a cure to it probably would use it against rogues, and maybe even engineer it to use on mundanes for all we know. Im not singling out Bester Sheridan also is Hypercritical with regard to his own attitude toward Telpaths, its a blind spot with him

 

[Chilli]

I don't most people disliking Byron claim that he was evil.

Mostly just that he was a twat.

 

[Cell]

Pretty much and that his own stupidity led to the deaths of many people. In the end he was just as bad as Bester, and just as much of a killer. Bester killed people with his own hands and brain, while Byron killed people because of his idiocy and lack of a brain.

 

[Jade Jaguar]

... when he should have been looking for allies. Delenn and Franklin being two obvious people who could have been very strong allies of his cause, had he handled the situation better.

Obvious to us, yes, but not to Byron. He really knew nothing about them. That was a large part of his problem.

Okay, so I asked Cell, and got no answer, now I will ask everyone, but especially those of you who think Byron was a dick, um..., excuse me, I believe it was "twat," exactly what should Byron have done, to save his people from Psycorps? Okay, he should have approached Delenn, and or Franklin, but he had no way of knowing they would be sympathetic to his cause. What should he have asked of them? What other recourses might he have had?

I strongly disagree with the statement that Byron was as much a killer as Bester, and responsible for his people's deaths. That's no different from saying that the Jewish leaders of the Warsaw Ghetto were as responsible as the Nazis for the deaths of the Jews there. I still don't get this blind hatred for Byron. Most, if not all, of his actions were reasonable, or at least, in the case of the spying and blackmail, more or less a standard practice of many entities on the station.

 

[Chilli]

Obvious to us, yes, but not to Byron. He really knew nothing about them. That was a large part of his problem.

EXACTLY. He did not know a thing about Franklin, so he assumed the worst. It's called "prejudice".

Okay, so I asked Cell, and got no answer, now I will ask everyone, but especially those of you who think Byron was a dick, um..., excuse me, I believe it was "twat," exactly what should Byron have done, to save his people from Psycorps? Okay, he should have approached Delenn, and or Franklin, but he had no way of knowing they would be sympathetic to his cause. What should he have asked of them? What other recourses might he have had?

I don't actually think Byron mishandled the psi cops situation - at that point, there were no other options left. He had painted himself in a corner.

I strongly disagree with the statement that Byron was as much a killer as Bester, and responsible for his people's deaths. That's no different from saying that the Jewish leaders of the Warsaw Ghetto were as responsible as the Nazis for the deaths of the Jews there. I still don't get this blind hatred for Byron. Most, if not all, of his actions were reasonable, or at least, in the case of the spying and blackmail, more or less a standard practice of many entities on the station.

I agree with you here. Saying that Byron is "just as bad" as Bester is stupid.

 

[Cell]

There is a big difference between the Jewish leaders and Byron. The Jewish leaders knew who their enemy was and they fought back against that enemy and that enemy alone. Byron on the other hand took his anger and hatred for Psi Corps and placed it on every race in the universe. He blamed the Drazi for something that humans had done to him, he blamed the ISA for what the Vorlons had done when it was essentially the ISA that fought the war to get the Vorlons to leave the galaxy and stop manipulating the younger races.

Before Byron did this Byron was an idiot and a dolt, but he was relatively harmless. But, after this he attempted to use his powers and the power of his people against the ISA and it backfired on him. Through his own actions he brought upon the death of many innocent civilians, rogue teeps and psi corps teeps. He is just as much of a killer as Bester, because the blood of every person that died in the teep crisis on B5 is on his hands, because his actions directly brought that crisis about.

As fr the answer to your question, Jade. Byron could have continued a campaign of non-violence, but minus most of the holier than thou attitude that, whether he knew it or not, placed his own self above the cause. That most likely would not have worked, but as we saw his pathetic attempts at espionage, the blame game, and then later violence without the actual use of violence were even worse than the non-aggression path.

 

[Jade Jaguar]

...he blamed the ISA for what the Vorlons had done when it was essentially the ISA that fought the war to get the Vorlons to leave the galaxy and stop manipulating the younger races.

You seem to forget that it was the ISA who used teeps as weapons, so he had plenty reason to be mad at them, and suspicious of them.

Through his own actions he brought upon the death of many innocent civilians, rogue teeps and psi corps teeps.

You seem to forget that he did everything in his power to stop his band from resorting to violence.

 

[Jade Jaguar]

EXACTLY. He did not know a thing about Franklin, so he assumed the worst. It's called "prejudice".

He did know that Franklin had helped use teeps as weapons. Even Franklin thought that was morally questionable. So, Byron had good reason to "assume the worst" about Franklin.

 

[Cell]

You seem to forget that it was the ISA who used teeps as weapons, so he had plenty reason to be mad at them, and suspicious of them.

Yes, but that was not Byron's reason for asking for the planet. He wanted the planet, moreso than before, because of teh fact that the Vorlons created teeps. The fact that the ISA themselves used teeps is neither here nor there because Byron never sees that as a rallying point against them. Besides, if you want to get specific, Byron was a member of psi corps, and they have used mundanes as cannon fodder before, so he really has no leg to stand on if he were to try that argument.

You seem to forget that he did everything in his power to stop his band from resorting to violence.

You seem to forget that his pathetic attempts at espionage and attempts to strong arm the ISA member nations are what brought upon the need for that violence in the first place.

 

[Cell]

He did know that Franklin had helped use teeps as weapons. Even Franklin thought that was morally questionable. So, Byron had good reason to "assume the worst" about Franklin.

Really, it's funny that Byron has free reign to assume about people all he wants based on their past actions, but Byron himself gets a free pass despite his past actions. Byron was a killer when he was in the corps, and he never paid his due for that crime, and yet he somehow has the right to assume the worst about people?

 

[Garovorkin]

Well there is one we can agree on, topic t has been a good one, its generated some pretty interesting opinions and reactions. I would say not in Bryon's favor though.

 

[Jade Jaguar]

Yes, but that was not Byron's reason for asking for the planet. He wanted the planet, moreso than before, because of teh fact that the Vorlons created teeps. The fact that the ISA themselves used teeps is neither here nor there because Byron never sees that as a rallying point against them. Besides, if you want to get specific, Byron was a member of psi corps, and they have used mundanes as cannon fodder before, so he really has no leg to stand on if he were to try that argument.

I never said that was Byron's reason for wanting a planet. But you said that Byron was blaming everyone, without reason, since only humans and Vorlons were to blame. I was just showing that he had good reason to blame all races in the ISA

You seem to forget that his pathetic attempts at espionage and attempts to strong arm the ISA member nations are what brought upon the need for that violence in the first place.

That is absurd. Far from bring a need for violence, it was that violence that made his attempt fail. If he trusted the B5 folks too little, he trusted his own people too much. You say his attempts at espionage were pathetic, yet Sheridan found them useful when they were working for him. Also, you say there was probably nothing Byron could have done that would have worked. So, I guess he and his band should just have surrendered meekly to Psi Corps. Now, that would have been pathetic. I think your problem is you think they shouldn't have been pacifists, and revile them for that.

Really, it's funny that Byron has free reign to assume about people all he wants based on their past actions, but Byron himself gets a free pass despite his past actions. Byron was a killer when he was in the corps, and he never paid his due for that crime, and yet he somehow has the right to assume the worst about people?

Byron had renounced his former life, as thoroughly as anyone can. But no, he doesn't get a free pass, and certainly no one gave him one. Well, okay, except for Lyta... At least to Byron's knowledge, Sheridan, the ISA, et. al., had never renounced their past actions against his kind. Still, he didn't assume the worst. He tried to work with them, be helpful, and lobby for a refuge for his people. But, given the actions of the station staff that followed, he had every reason to expect the worst. He only escalated his actions in relation to that. He had no choice. I have never seen anyone suggest an alternative.

 

[Cell]

I never said that was Byron's reason for wanting a planet. But you said that Byron was blaming everyone, without reason, since only humans and Vorlons were to blame. I was just showing that he had good reason to blame all races in the ISA

He didn't have good reason though, those telepaths were used in a war, the same as mundanes were used in that war. If anything the ISA treated them just as equally as they did mundanes, which is supposedly what Byron wants.

That is absurd. Far from bring a need for violence, it was that violence that made his attempt fail. If he trusted the B5 folks too little, he trusted his own people too much. You say his attempts at espionage were pathetic, yet Sheridan found them useful when they were working for him. Also, you say there was probably nothing Byron could have done that would have worked. So, I guess he and his band should just have surrendered meekly to Psi Corps. Now, that would have been pathetic. I think your problem is you think they shouldn't have been pacifists, and revile them for that.

The violence never would have happened had Byron not made his ill fated attempt at black mailing the B5 ambassadors and forcing the ISA into taking the action he wanted to. Byron was the one that forced the issue, he was the one that caused the violence and caused the eventual return of the psi corps tp hunt his people down. It's absurd to look at what Byron did there and say, "No, he didn't bring about an escalation of violence" when that was exactly what his pathetic black mail attempt did.

Byron had renounced his former life, as thoroughly as anyone can. But no, he doesn't get a free pass, and certainly no one gave him one. Well, okay, except for Lyta... At least to Byron's knowledge, Sheridan, the ISA, et. al., had never renounced their past actions against his kind. Still, he didn't assume the worst. He tried to work with them, be helpful, and lobby for a refuge for his people. But, given the actions of the station staff that followed, he had every reason to expect the worst. He only escalated his actions in relation to that. He had no choice. I have never seen anyone suggest an alternative.

Who cares if he renounced his former life, he still committed those crimes and never once had to pay for them. Yet, he expects mundanes to pay for every little affront they have ever committed against teeps and even for mundanes that have never done anything wrong to teeps to pay for crimes against teeps. Byron did assume the worst, and in the end he was no different than the people he was supposedly better than. He only worked for the ISA when he felt that it could help his cause, so not only did he assume the worst about them but then he tried to use them for his own purposes and was somehow surprised when it all back fired on him and resulted in the deaths of many people.

Here's a simple alternative, don't blame the ISA for what the Vorlons did to you. Don't blame the Minbari and the Drazi for the fact that humans have mistreated you. Don't try and black mail ambassadors and fail miserably at it. And finally don't hide behind your pacifist bullshit when your own actions have brought upon the violence that you supposedly detest so much. There may not have been a "winning" or better course of action for him to take, but that doesn't make the path that he did choose the correct one or the right one given how it turned out. Nor does the lack of a better option make his actions defensible.

 

[GaribaldisHair]

And all of which I think is exactly what JMS was going for in writing the character. Towards the end Byron was acting purely on emotion after "accidentally" getting the truth of the telepaths origins from Lyta. It was on discovering that fact that he escalated matters to make what followed probably inevitable.

He was misguided and charismatic ... a dangerous combination. Waco, anyone?

 

[Truth_Seeker]

I think that sometimes it's just a matter of sympathy.

Byron was responsible for the deaths of dozens and no one likes him.

Londo was responsible for the deaths of millions and he's still one of the favourite B5 character.