Doctor Who Christmas Special 2008 (Possible Spoilers)

[Garovorkin]

He doesn't look it. Not with that haircut, at least.

Like I've said, I'll keep my final judgement till I've seen him in action, but in general, while all doctors have been different, they've all had a certain gravitas - even Davison and Tennant (though Tennant was quite weak in his first season, IMO, and only then started getting better) - which he, judging by the few pictures and video clips I've seen, does not have.

Even if I'm sure he's a great actor, he screams "emo teenager" for me.

But, we shall see.

Yes I know he not a teenage himself, but he looks like one. It does look like they are trying to appeal to the teen audience,

 

[Galahad]

I'm a bit baffled by the decision (but majorly glad it's not a woman). My head and my heart can't fathom it... but my gut tells me to trust Moffatt, he is after all the ultimate Doctor Who fan (aside from being the new head writer and producer), rocking the boat will be the furthest thing from his mind.

He knows he doesn't need to capture the teen market, because over here on the domestic front... teenagers can't get enough.

I'm thinking the same things... and I was worried about Tennant when he had his first five seconds of dialogue in the Parting of the Ways, but he soon found his stride.

My guess is that Moffatt knew full well that this would take some adjusting to, and that is why it was not left as a surprise but was announced in a Confidential Special.

Time willtell... we shall see.

But for now, glad they didn't pull the gender switch.

 

[Garovorkin]

I'm a bit baffled by the decision (but majorly glad it's not a woman). My head and my heart can't fathom it... but my gut tells me to trust Moffatt, he is after all the ultimate Doctor Who fan (aside from being the new head writer and producer), rocking the boat will be the furthest thing from his mind.

He knows he doesn't need to capture the teen market, because over here on the domestic front... teenagers can't get enough.

I'm thinking the same things... and I was worried about Tennant when he had his first five seconds of dialogue in the Parting of the Ways, but he soon found his stride.

My guess is that Moffatt knew full well that this would take some adjusting to, and that is why it was not left as a surprise but was announced in a Confidential Special.

Time willtell... we shall see.

But for now, glad they didn't pull the gender switch.

Why didn't they give the part to David Morrissey He would have been great choice for the role of the Doctor. He was Marvelous in The Next Doctor. Even Robert Carlyle or James Nesbit would have been good chices as well.

 

[hypatia]

Please don't let it be a woman!
Please don't let it be a woman!
Please don't let it be a woman!
Please don't let it be a woman!.... {many edits here}....

David Tennant accidentially busted that rumour by stating that he envied the bloke they've chosen. Thank god.

While I have no problems with a black actor in principle - as long as he has a convincing British accent - it would kind of focus how the last nine have consistenly been white guys. But then, the show has progressed with society, so it wouldn't be that big a deal.

Not that Doctor Who casting choices have, recently, been giving an accurate picture of modern British society - with all the black people that have been cast on DW, noone West African has been cast, also if there are four times as many Indians and Pakistanis in the UK than Africans. Which is starting to make me wonder if their casting choices aren't more driven by wanting to seem PC for US exports than actually casting the most talented people, regardless of race.

But at the end of the day, as long as they cast talented people, I can live with it.

All will be revealed at 5:35, BBC1.

Well, it's official for our girls and guy-liking guys .. lusting for the Doctor has just become cradle-robbing. .... {edit}... I've never seen him in anything, so I'll withhold my judgement, but the doctor being a goofy teenager is not encouraging.

I am trying to figure out why there is so much controversy over the recasting of the sex, race, and age of the Doctor. Other than the "I like to lust after this type", why is this really a concern for us at all? I don't think this is just true of this role in this series, either. It just seems more emphatic when it comes to Dr. Who.

Is it just that once we have an image in the brain of "what kind" of character the Doctor is, we are disappointed if there is any variation? Their personalities have been radically different. So what weird workings of the human mind are doing this, I wonder?

The Doctor should be someone that "we" (on the inside, so to speak) take seriously, but who might not be seen automatically that way by the people he has to interact with. Kind of wise but in a crazy sort of way. I just can't help but wonder, why should anything else make any real difference?

It does, despite the fact that many of us have no idea at all what this actor will actually be like in the role.

Fans are fickle, I guess.

 

[Chilli]

Part of it is that we're on the internet, and the internet was made for pathetic whining

Part is, also, a nervousness of the show going in some new direction which might not be appealing. Personally, I'm a bit afraid of Moffat trying to make the Doctor too much of a standard romantic lead, in the modern sense .. which for me isn't the doctor, in any of his incarnations.

But, we shall see. People have been worried about casting decisions before.

My main wish is that somebody gives that boy a fucking haircut.

 

[Galahad]

I am trying to figure out why there is so much controversy over the recasting of the sex, race, and age of the Doctor. Other than the "I like to lust after this type", why is this really a concern for us at all? I don't think this is just true of this role in this series, either. It just seems more emphatic when it comes to Dr. Who.

Is it just that once we have an image in the brain of "what kind" of character the Doctor is, we are disappointed if there is any variation? Their personalities have been radically different. So what weird workings of the human mind are doing this, I wonder?

The Doctor should be someone that "we" (on the inside, so to speak) take seriously, but who might not be seen automatically that way by the people he has to interact with. Kind of wise but in a crazy sort of way. I just can't help but wonder, why should anything else make any real difference?

It does, despite the fact that many of us have no idea at all what this actor will actually be like in the role.

Fans are fickle, I guess.

We've been here before remember?In another thread.

1. I have no problem with the Doctor being played by any race... whatsoever (but he definitely should carry the English accent).

2. I simply cannot express how much I am against the idea of the Doctor becoming a woman. Some of those reasons are selfish - I relate to him on some levels and I would feel a sense of being robbed of that. On a grander scale though, I'm sick and fed up of radical feminism poaching/stealing (because that is what it is), male aspirational characters and claiming them for womankind. For pities sake, you have your own... why do you need ours? It's because form some people, it is no longer about equality but supremacy. That's why you get campaigns like this, and that's why most male interest entertainment is sidelined on terrestrial channels. Man and his culture must be suppressed because he is the cause of all woes. 1X chromosome bad 2X chromosomes good. The most hardcore female Doctor Who fans don't want it, no woman I know wants it, so who is actually behind the idea?

3. I'm... cautious about the age issue. As was Moffatt. He'd perceived the Doctor as generally being 40+with the exception of Tennant. He's a bigger Doctor Who fan than any of us, and has been far and away the strongest writer. it was his decision. So with regards to Smith... my head and heart can't fathom or agree with it yet, but my gut feeling also tells me to trust Moffatt because he knows what he is doing. Plus, he's been privvy to auditions that we have not seen. Also I think it was Chilli who also remarked that he was cautious about Tennant when he started... as was I... and Tennant completely and utterly won me around.

Essentially Hyp, the answer to your question about why people are so pernickety about who plays the Doctor, is because on some level they emotionally invest in the character and take posssession of him. Tennant himself said it when speaking in character (and simultaneously using the opportunity to say something he meant out pof character), when talking to Peter Davison's Doctor... "you were my Doctor."

And thats how we all are.

 

[Galahad]

I am trying to figure out why there is so much controversy over the recasting of the sex, race, and age of the Doctor. Other than the "I like to lust after this type", why is this really a concern for us at all? I don't think this is just true of this role in this series, either. It just seems more emphatic when it comes to Dr. Who.

Is it just that once we have an image in the brain of "what kind" of character the Doctor is, we are disappointed if there is any variation? Their personalities have been radically different. So what weird workings of the human mind are doing this, I wonder?

The Doctor should be someone that "we" (on the inside, so to speak) take seriously, but who might not be seen automatically that way by the people he has to interact with. Kind of wise but in a crazy sort of way. I just can't help but wonder, why should anything else make any real difference?

It does, despite the fact that many of us have no idea at all what this actor will actually be like in the role.

Fans are fickle, I guess.

We've been here before remember?In another thread.

1. I have no problem with the Doctor being played by any race... whatsoever (but he definitely should carry the English accent).

2. I simply cannot express how much I am against the idea of the Doctor becoming a woman. Some of those reasons are selfish - I relate to him on some levels and I would feel a sense of being robbed of that. On a grander scale though, I'm sick and fed up of radical feminism poaching/stealing (because that is what it is), male aspirational characters and claiming them for womankind. For pities sake, you have your own... why do you need ours? It's because form some people, it is no longer about equality but supremacy. That's why you get campaigns like this, and that's why most male interest entertainment is sidelined on terrestrial channels. Man and his culture must be suppressed because he is the cause of all woes. 1X chromosome bad 2X chromosomes good. The most hardcore female Doctor Who fans don't want it, no woman I know wants it, so who is actually behind the idea?

3. I'm... cautious about the age issue. As was Moffatt. He'd perceived the Doctor as generally being 40+with the exception of Tennant. He's a bigger Doctor Who fan than any of us, and has been far and away the strongest writer. it was his decision. So with regards to Smith... my head and heart can't fathom or agree with it yet, but my gut feeling also tells me to trust Moffatt because he knows what he is doing. Plus, he's been privvy to auditions that we have not seen. Also I think it was Chilli who also remarked that he was cautious about Tennant when he started... as was I... and Tennant completely and utterly won me around.

Essentially Hyp, the answer to your question about why people are so pernickety about who plays the Doctor, is because on some level they emotionally invest in the character and take posssession of him. Tennant himself said it when speaking in character (and simultaneously using the opportunity to say something he meant out pof character), when talking to Peter Davison's Doctor... "you were my Doctor."

And thats how we all are.

Why didn't they give the part to David Morrissey He would have been great choice for the role of the Doctor.
He was Marvelous in The Next Doctor.

He was ok but I wasn't overawed by this Christmas's offering. Also his "incarnation" was resolved in that special.[

Even Robert Carlyle or James Nesbitt would have been good choices as well.

Carlysle would probably have been ok. I seriously don't understand why some quarters call for Nesbitt to have the role. I think he's a hit and miss type actor but I don't think the Doctor is something he'd be comfortable with or could pull off.

I was prospectively hoping for the father would become son and the son the father with the news of Sean Pertwee expressing an interest in playing at least some form of role.

 

[Chilli]

I really don't know where you're coming from with the women stealing men's characters' thing - this is not meant as a snide remark, I reall don't. What cases are you thinking of?

 

[hypatia]

Part of it is that we're on the internet, and the internet was made for pathetic whining

:guffaw:

Damn, Chilli! I do believe you hit a very real point here.

Part is, also, a nervousness of the show going in some new direction which might not be appealing. Personally, I'm a bit afraid of Moffat trying to make the Doctor too much of a standard romantic lead, in the modern sense .. which for me isn't the doctor, in any of his incarnations.

Ah, I hadn't thought of that. Wow, would that ruin the character and even the purpose of the character: he's meant to be the one no one quite takes seriously, but turns out to be far more on the ball than he seems. He's also the one who is willing to face consequences by interfering because he can't stand to just sit back and watch.

And another thing: the romantic lead thing would be hard to mesh with the intelligence of the Doctor. They pushed that limit I think as far as it could go with Rose. And Rose was more a "partner in crime" alongside him that he grew very fond of, then that became more. I can see that, I guess. Once, and with that kind of character. But oh dear, it hadn't occured to me that someone eventually might have the horrible idea of "the Doctor as Kirk".

But, we shall see. People have been worried about casting decisions before.

My main wish is that somebody gives that boy a fucking haircut.

Well, that is a possibility, isn't it? That photo was of him from some specific role, wasn't it? He looks awfully goofy in that shot, I guess I'm hopingit was part of a character he was playing at the time.

 

[A_M_Swallow]

The Doctor -> main Companion is father -> daughter.
Possibly teacher -> student.
It is not boy friend <--> girl friend.

As for the Doctor's age we expect leaders like generals and presidents to be old.
The only major leader near 26 that I can think off was William Pitt the younger.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Pitt_the_Younger

 

[crazyhorse]

I really don't know where you're coming from with the women stealing men's characters' thing - this is not meant as a snide remark, I reall don't. What cases are you thinking of?

The only one I can immediately think of is Starbuck although I think that was just a crap character more than it being spoiled by a change in sex.Boomers change didn't bother me nearly as much.

I do agree that the Doctor should be a white male though.We know they are coloured Timelords (female ones as well ) and it seems to me that regeneration shouldn't change sex or race.

Now the female clone of the doctor is another matter and I would love to see her meet up with the doctor again or even get a spin off series.

 

[darth_librarian]

No issue with Colour, would have preferred Patterson Joseph to this child they are replacing David Tennant with. The Dr should probably stay male though.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/s4/misc/news/index_new_doctor.shtml

Watch him say iconic a lot.

Still, at least he is from my part of the world, and almost played for my local team! ...

Ok, so child is a bit harsh, he is 4 years younger than me, but really does not fit my mental image of any Doctor. I'm sure he has screen gravitas though. I just hope it was a decision made on range and talent and not demographic appeal. I want to be proved wrong, and basically agree with everything Chili says (again) ...

EDIT: I just found out he also went to the same University as me (UEA) . All a bit scary.

 

[Galahad]

I really don't know where you're coming from with the women stealing men's characters' thing - this is not meant as a snide remark, I reall don't. What cases are you thinking of?

It's usually more subtle and insidious than stealing the character itself. A good example would be in the worst of the Brosnan Bond offerings (Die Another Day). There was a massive imbalance in the relationship of Bond to Bond girl. Bond was way too reliant on Halle Berry's character Jinx and I saw the film as largely a failed exercise in trying to generate a spin-of where the world saver is a female American. I'm not saying this was the films only flaw... but it's the relevant one to the topic at hand.

But the campaign for a female Doctor, is probably the most open attempt to do something like that... and they can only do it because of the unique format of the way science is portrayed in Doctor Who.

I don't really count Starbuck from BSG because at least that's a reinterpretation (although it is rather lame that they initially made the character all about "outmanning the men").

And then you have to look at the kind of actresses they tip for the part...

Jennifer Saunders and Catherine Zeta-Jones... oh pulllleassseee pull the other one.

 

[Galahad]

Now the female clone of the doctor is another matter and I would love to see her meet up with the doctor again or even get a spin off series.

This I can go with totally.

As for young leaders:

Alexander the Great was younger.

King Arthur was supposedly still a boy when he is portrayed as taking power.

Tutankhmun

Horatio Hornblower was about 26 when he was promoted to Commander and given the HMS Hotspur.

 

[hypatia]

I just thought I'd offer one thought to consider:

Do you know why women often want to play these men's roles?

It's because the male characters are almost always far more interesting to act than the female ones (with some notable exceptions, usually what guys deem "chick flicks").

When I was earning my Master's degree, my advisor wisely suggested that I start my paper early. Even though most students crammed it all in one year, I started a semester early. I had been doing the musical comedies they did every Spring semester. This semester one of the plays up for consideration was "Jesus Christ Superstar".

The only female part in the play is shit. So I considered it, then asked the director/conductor if I could try out for Herod... and play Herod as a female, not a male (Queen Herod). He considered it for a few minutes, then got back to me and said "yes, you could try out under that premise". It turned out to be a moot point: we did "A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum" where I won the role of Domina. Easy part, but a fun one.

But there are two main characters that appealed to me in JCS: Herod and of course, Judas. Herod was fun, so I wanted to try for that part.

Am I to be shunned for this? Is it really so terrible that I had no desire or intention of trying out for the wimpy Mary Magdalen role?

Anyhow, just food for thought. It turned out the show we did went quite well, and Domina was a small enough part it was doable with my class schedule plus paper.

Just thought I'd mention this, as food for thought I guess.

 

[Chilli]

It's usually more subtle and insidious than stealing the character itself. A good example would be in the worst of the Brosnan Bond offerings (Die Another Day). There was a massive imbalance in the relationship of Bond to Bond girl. Bond was way too reliant on Halle Berry's character Jinx and I saw the film as largely a failed exercise in trying to generate a spin-of where the world saver is a female American. I'm not saying this was the films only flaw... but it's the relevant one to the topic at hand.

I don't really think a Bond flick written by two guys qualifies as an act of radical feminism. Especially when it sucked quite this much. It's not uncommon for (predominantly male) writers to create female characters, attempting to make them "strong", and mostly doing so by writing them either as male-r than the males (BSG), or as emotionless and characterless (Star Trek Voyager). But, this isn't radical feminism either. It's just bad writing.

Feminists, like all other groups of people, can sometimes go over the top and do some silly stuff. I could rant for days about the utterly insane crap perpetrators of so-called "linguistic feminism" are doing to the German language. In fact, I have, and most my girly-power girl friends agree with me on the complete ass-backwardsness of this particular movement. But I really can't see any indications of the persecution of heterosexual white males in the mainstream media.

(Incidentially, the James Bond genre is actually one example of a genre in which a traditional male role was given to a woman, with M. A role in which Judy Dench absolutely kicks ass, in my opinion.)

My main problem with the whole female doctor thing is that it would have been goofy - after ten generations of the doctor being male, and it pretty much being established that the doctor keeps certain characteristics in every regeneration, it would have seemed like a stunt.

Also, I was not impressed with any of the names floating around. Donna!Doctor, I could have lived with, but she was not one of the candidates.

 

[Sindatur]

Also, I was not impressed with any of the names floating around. Donna!Doctor, I could have lived with, but she was not one of the candidates.

Actually, I'm pretty sure I did hear her name. I'm actually surprised Donna seems to have been loathed by the Dr. Who fans. In the Runaway Bride she screeched way too much, but, when she became a regular companion and stopped the eternal screeching, I actually enjoyed the portrayal.

 

[hypatia]

My main problem with the whole female doctor thing is that it would have been goofy - after ten generations of the doctor being male, and it pretty much being established that the doctor keeps certain characteristics in every regeneration, it would have seemed like a stunt.

It would have seemed odd, as well as his regenerating into a noteably darker color. Funny how that didn't seem to bother people as much. Regenerating into a female did bother a lot of people. And regenerating with a radically different accent definitely bothered people.

Could it be that after many decades of pushing society for equality, the black community has made the concept somehow more palatable? I find it interesting what we (including myself in some of these cases) just automatically have a distaste for, and what would seem normal. In all honesty, it seems to have more to do with comfort levels than story logic.

In any event, I am apparantly very turned off by the idea of a really, really young Doctor. Of everything, that is what dims my enthusiasm for the new season more than anything. If the Doctor is to be a father figure to his companions, how young will they have to be?

I guess the character will slide more into bigger-and-wise brother figure, as it was already doing with Tenant.

 

[Kribu]

I think a colour change would have been easier to deal with - if only because a skin colour change is such a minor change genetically, while a gender change would be much more major. (Also, we've seen female timelords before - and both Romana and Rani seemed quite defined as females; even when Romana tried on various bodies for the regeneration scene, I seem to recall one of them was quite "alien" in appearance and different in skin colour, but definitely female all the same.)

Not to say that a gender change would be impossible - he's an alien, anything can be explained away. But I do think it would be a considerably bigger change in more ways than a simple change in skin colour. It really doesn't have to be "ewww, woman" that has made more people react negatively to that; it's simply that it doesn't seem to follow from what we've seen in the show before.

As for Eleven... the boy seems likeable enough, even though I'm dearly hoping he'll get a haircut (I somehow doubt it - he seems to have it the same way for every role he's played). I watched The Ruby in the Smoke the other day, in which Matt Smith had a semi-major role next to Billie Piper, and he seemed okay there, if a bit annoyingly boy - but that was a couple of years ago and might have been part of the role anyway.

So I'm sort of... going to try and keep an open mind. He's far, far too young for my liking, but as long as this trend won't continue (I do NOT want a 12 year old for the next one!), I'm prepared to see how it works out. My biggest fear isn't so much that he's too young to carry the role off well enough - he's a talented and accomplished actor according to a lot of people who have seen him in more things - but that Moffatt, who has shown some keenness on sexualising the Doctor in his episodes so far, will now have cast a young and somewhat attractive man as the Doctor and will take the romance aspects even further. It's not that I'm strongly against the Doctor having urges and relationships - it's just that most of the other shows out there are doing the romance bit, so it was just refreshing to have a show with different dynamics.

 

[Jade Jaguar]

Although I'd rather not see a Doctor so young, I'll try and keep an open mind too. Conceivably, there could be some interesting plot points made of such a young Dr. having trouble being taken seriously by older characters.

If the Dr. ever does regenerate into a female, I'm sure they'll offer an explanation, and I won't go off in a snit, but I'd rather the Dr. remain male. Gender seems to me to be an innate part of a being, and Time Lords have demonstrated that they definitely have gender differences.