Does any tv series / book saga / movie saga achieve B5's plot structure?

[squish]

Would "Jericho" count as pre-planned? The writers sure seemed to know where they where going. Had it not been aborted I think Firefly would count as well, after seeing Serenity I do get the impression of long term planning.

what was Jericho about again? I heard the name once I've never seen it

 

[babylonfan]

what was Jericho about again? I heard the name once I've never seen it

The mayor cities of the USA are hit by two dozen or so nuclear explosions. USA falls into chaos while the town of Jericho is trying to make ends meet.

 

[Alluveal]

Would "Jericho" count as pre-planned? The writers sure seemed to know where they where going. Had it not been aborted I think Firefly would count as well, after seeing Serenity I do get the impression of long term planning.

I think a lot of shows were offed before they were able to reach their full potential (shows that had planning.) Firefly comes to mind, as does Carnivale.

I've heard good things from friends (who love B5) about Avatar. I'm just wary because I loathe anime and find most of it so incredibly dumbed-down and horribly acted. Could be wrong about this one.

 

[KoshFan]

Although, in the case of Carnivale, I was glad that it got axed when it did.

Firefly... ah, Firefly would have flown high indeed, had it lived.

 

[vacantlook]

I've heard good things from friends (who love B5) about Avatar. I'm just wary because I loathe anime and find most of it so incredibly dumbed-down and horribly acted. Could be wrong about this one.

As someone who super-totally loves Avatar The Last Airbender, I have to say if you think it's like anime, you're wrong.

First, Avatar is not anime. It's an American (Nickelodeon) produced cartoon that's only visually inspired by anime. I agree with you: I've tried watching various anime, but the plots are unbelievably boring. I guess maybe it's just something different culturally between Japan and America or something. The plot of Avatar is for American audiences; the show's co-creators/co-executive producers are American themselves, and, while like jms or Joss Whedon, they didn't write every word of the show, they were definitely the ones in control.

The voice acting for Avatar is really good too. I'll admit it: there were several moments in the show that got me to tear up some. Over the past year or so, I've gotten my best friend into watching Avatar. She's told me that she thinks it's so good that she forgets that it's animated and not real people when she watches it.

The plot is definitely not dumbed down. Avatar won a Peabody this year for how realistic, yet still kid-friendly, it depicts the complexities and struggles of war. Over the course of the show, they tackle things like war, the impact of death of one's parents, having an abusive father, trust, betrayal, redemption, forgiveness, and conflict between idealism and realism (i.e. can one remain a non-violent pacifist when the whole world is desperately looking to you to kill a tyrant to end a war; and the way they resolve that moral conflict is very satisfying, in my opinion).

 

[Jade Jaguar]

Although, in the case of Carnivale, I was glad that it got axed when it did.

I can't agree with you there. Carnivale was great, and showing no signs of fading. If it had had another couple of years, it might have matched B5 for long-arc drama.

 

[KoshFan]

Carnivale was indeed great, which is why I'm happy it ended the way it did; I heard rumors about what they were going to do in Season 3, and if they'd gone through with it, it would have ruined it for me. Or at least I would have been much less impressed.

 

[ALeafOnTheWind]

Jeremiah was pretty good in this regard. Alas, another show not given a chance to have a full run.

 

[B5_Obsessed]

But Twin Peaks wasn't planned out from the beginning, I'm pretty sure it was mostly made up as it went along. I even don't think they decided who murdered Laura Palmer in the beginning. I mean sure they knew it was "bob" but who he inhabited and the details were probably not decided.

I remember reading the Lynch didn't even want to reveal the murderer until the end of the series.

From Wikipedia: (I sort of knew the story, but why write what you can copy?)

The impetus for the series Twin Peaks was the mystery of who killed Laura Palmer. When production began on the pilot, series creators David Lynch and Mark Frost had decided that the murderer would be revealed as Leland Palmer, Laura's father. During the filming of a scene in the pilot taking place in Laura's room, Frank Silva, a set dresser, accidentally trapped himself in the room prior to filming by inadvertently moving a dresser in front of the door. Lynch had an image of Silva stuck in the room and thought that it could fit into the series somewhere, and told Silva that he would like for him to be in the series. Lynch had Silva crouch at the foot of Laura's bed and look through the bars of the footboard, as if he were "trapped" behind them, and filmed it, then had Silva leave the room and filmed the empty room; after reviewing the footage, Lynch liked the presence that Silva brought to the scene and decided that he would put him somewhere in the series.

Later that day, a scene was being filmed in which Laura Palmer's mother experiences a vision which frightens her; at the time, the script did not indicate what Mrs Palmer had seen to frighten her. Lynch was pleased with how the scene turned out, but a crew member informed him that it would have to be re-shot, because a mirror in the scene had inadvertently picked up someone's reflection. When Lynch asked who it was, the crew member replied that it had been Silva. Lynch considered this a "happy accident," and decided at that point that the unnamed character to be played by Silva would be revealed as Laura Palmer's true killer

 

[B5_Obsessed]

For older fans of anime, lets not forget Starblazers aka Space Battleship Yamato.

Produced in Japan from 1974-1980, it was first broadcast in the United States in 1979. Significantly, it was the first popular English-translated anime that had an over-arching plot and storyline that required the episodes to be shown in order. Even while being toned down a bit by editing, it also dealt with much more mature themes than any other productions being aimed at the same target audience at the time. As a result, it paved the way for the introduction and popularity of future arc-based, plot-driven anime translations.

 

[B5_Obsessed]

Omg I always thought of Tolkein as the worst example, given what one of my college english professors told me about him... He said he just wrote bit by bit. He got up to the introduction of Aragorn and had absolutely no idea where the story was going--no plan whatsoever--and a friend writer had told him that when you have nowhere to go, you just throw in a dark brooding character and go from there, so that's what he did! Tolkein actually said of Lord of the Rings "It's only a story" or "It's just a story" or something, about the people who would write theses analyzing its involved structure and depth and themes, he was amused that people got that much out of it since he didn't put all that into it.

I think that's true of anything, though. You rarely know where a character is going when you start writing, but you figure it out along the way. The timing of the death of Kosh surprised JMS himself, and Marcus, who had been brought in for Season 3 to give us a swashbuckling "face" of the Rangers, conveniently fell into place as the one most likely to use the alien healing device that had been sitting in storage since Season 1.

Writing is synchronicity, serendipity, and just plain luck.

 

[ryuu]

i watch lots of anime, and those who say it's badly acted/dull, need to stop watching dubs, expecially those done by for kids. most animes have a well thought out/planned story as they come from manga which isn't in danger of being canceled every year, as it's cheap to produce. the bleach anime is over 200 episodes long, and while it has the odd filler episodes/serieses that is merely to account for the diferences in speed of action against comic (it takes 2 or 3 chapters of manga to fill one 30 minuite anime episode, and their both relesed weekly).
please don't dis anime if you've only seen the dubbed versions

 

[GKarsEye]

I tried to watch Akira and... well I forgot what the other famous anime thing was, ghost something.... they were dubbed but that's not what made me lose interest. Because let's be honest- reading subtitles can be a pain in the ass.

Some genres are just not gonna connect with people...

 

[hypatia]

I actually liked "Ghost in the Shell" somewhat. Anime is awfully violent for me, and a bit predictable sometimes. I likely haven't seen the best of it, I admit. But I"ll take "The Seven Samauri" or most any Kurosawa movie any day.

Just my opinion, of course. But the anime I've seen look a lot like video games to me.

 

[ryuu]

anime can look like computer games, but that's cause most modern anime is CG and anything that isn't live action will look like a computer game

 

[hypatia]

Actually, I wouldn't tend to agree with you there. Disney's "Snow White" or even "Shrek" doesn't look like a video game to me. And I was speaking about the action, actually. Nothing wrong with it, it just was not much to my taste. It did, however, bring up a topic or two that were interesting which is why I didn't say I didn't like it at all.

I admit, that the cop team science fiction story base is one that I think has been terrily overused in sci-fi.

 

[Lyta's Shadow]

I think an example of a show axed before it had a chance to achieve what it wanted is Dark Skies. That was to have a five year structure and had ambitious plans. The future glimpse in Ancient Future always reminded me of the similar visions that cropped up in B5 every now and then. The series bible for DS was recently published online, but was taken down quickly. It seems there was a structure outlined for the whole show. A great shame it was never produced because it's one of my all time favourites.

 

[Republibot 3.0]

I'd say, arguably, that there are several shows that do. Most obviously, and popularly, is "Lost," which had a conceptual beginning, middle, and end when they started out, and although they are guilty of winging it quite a bit when actors decide to leave or when the network told 'em to stretch it out in the 2nd season, I do think it's comparable to B5. I don't think it's as good, but I think it's in the ballpark.

Others have pointed it out, but I think "Avatar: The Last Airbender" is every bit as epic, heroic, sprawling and noble as B5, and beautifully animated. I love that it's aimed at kids, but doesn't really talk down to 'em. I'd also say the first two seasons of "Justice League Unlimited" were nearly as good. Of course that brings up the point of the DCAU as a whole, which, if we assume it to be one series (Which it isn't) and internally consistent (Which it mostly is) ends up being....well, I dont' want to say it's better because it's nowhere near as focused, but it almost became like one series in its final iteration, you know, where they aggressively incorperated the history of all the shows in to one.

I'd probably mention Stargate SG1, which did it accidentally and simply by virtue of a very long run. It's nowhere near as noble nor as smart, nor as good, but by the end its plot structure was labrynthine.

 

[Dangerousapple]

I too love B5 for its commitment to one planned out arc – it allowed for one of the most epic and ambitious stories on television. But I’d also like to add a criticism to that praise. Because of its pre-planned nature, upon re-watching the series there are points where you feel that events aren’t happening organicly, but because the structure of the story needed them to.

The most obvious moments are when a actor left the show and a new character had to be created. Instead of being their own unique person, that charcter inherits the narrative burden of the previous character. For instance, it’s obvious Cahterine Sakai was set up to have the same fate as Sheridan’s wife. As it stands, were are left with foreshadowing in Sakai’s arc to events that eventually DID expire, but with the replacement character instead.

Again, this is only noticeble a second time around, but it is distracting and in some ways a disadvantage of creating a planned out arc: it can feel constructed instead of organic.

 

[Galahad]

I too love B5 for its commitment to one planned out arc – it allowed for one of the most epic and ambitious stories on television. But I’d also like to add a criticism to that praise. Because of its pre-planned nature, upon re-watching the series there are points where you feel that events aren’t happening organicly, but because the structure of the story needed them to.

Ironically I think life itself sometimes works out that way.