babylon1122
Regular
I have often wondered what ever happened to Draal and why he was not used in the Shaddow war. Can anyone answer this for me. 
JC
JC
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Draal
- Thread starter babylon1122
- Start date
vacantlook
Super Moderator
One, Draal did help Sheridan's alliance to find the remaining First Ones, which was a point of helping in the Shadow War.
Two, when the Shadows came to Babylon 5 in "Z'ha'dum," which was one of the few if only time in which weapons from Epsilon 3 would have actually been able to take out Shadow ships, Ivanova tried to get in contact with Draal to coordinate an defense/attack but the Shadows were able to jam the communications.
Two, when the Shadows came to Babylon 5 in "Z'ha'dum," which was one of the few if only time in which weapons from Epsilon 3 would have actually been able to take out Shadow ships, Ivanova tried to get in contact with Draal to coordinate an defense/attack but the Shadows were able to jam the communications.
I think the unofficial answer to this is that Draal was drained because of the whole B4 incident. I'm sure he knew shadows had appeared around B5 and didn't need Ivanova to tell him. He just wouldn't have been any use to them in the state that he was in. I'm sure if they started shooting he would have done his best to help.
JMS stated that if you look at when the Shadows come to B5, they decloak and swarm around the station, making it impossible for Draal to fire without taking out the station as well. Don't forget, the Shadows probably knew Draal and the machine were there (Voices of Authority) and most likely planned for this contigency.
-Tim
-Tim
Hmm, unless I am very much mistaken, the defensive capabillities of the great machine where never used where they?
In season one's 'a voice from the wilderness', jms goes through great lenghts to establish the power of the weapons systems on Epsilon three. In season two, Draal states that those defensive are now at Sheridan's disposal. Knowing jms, he never puts something in without intent to use it.
So either this is one of the things that didn't go as planned, or the grat machine's defensive will be part of a (suddenly highly possible) future project??
In season one's 'a voice from the wilderness', jms goes through great lenghts to establish the power of the weapons systems on Epsilon three. In season two, Draal states that those defensive are now at Sheridan's disposal. Knowing jms, he never puts something in without intent to use it.
So either this is one of the things that didn't go as planned, or the grat machine's defensive will be part of a (suddenly highly possible) future project??
Oatley1
Beyond the rim
No, the 'defensive capabilities' of the Great Machine were never used during the 5 years of B5. Post Season 3 it did some minor work in Season 4, during the fight with Earth (via the Voice of the Resistence), but that was about it.
But the purpose of the Great Machine was really only to throw B4 back 1000 years. Because that happened 2 years earlier in the storyline than originally intended, it sort of left the Great Machine just hanging there.
But the purpose of the Great Machine was really only to throw B4 back 1000 years. Because that happened 2 years earlier in the storyline than originally intended, it sort of left the Great Machine just hanging there.
You make a valid point Oatley1, but I don't think the *only* purpose of the great machine was to throw b4 back in time: Otherwise I don't think jms would have emphasised the military advantage of having an ally in Draal.
If the military capabilities where never important, giving the great machine such a great offensive power would be a bit redundant: for story purposes it would only need defensive capabilities.
If the military capabilities where never important, giving the great machine such a great offensive power would be a bit redundant: for story purposes it would only need defensive capabilities.
sleepy_shadow
Regular
For a planet-sized machine, its capabilities fit nicely within "defensive".
Capability to destroy moderate-strength targets in immediate proximity... even the Earth defense grid accomplishes that. Absolutely required, lest anyone drop in without invitation.
Meanwhile, it has little offensive capability... it cannot go and start making surprise visits elsewhere.
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Perhaps the only good question... why did Draal not recognize either the purpose or volatility of the Thirdspace artifact?
Had recognition been possible, I would presume Draal to have demanded thousandfold care (such as multiple-redundant preparations for immediate destruction of the artifact, in the event that it try something) or destroying the object first (learning from pieces later).
Then again, perhaps by that time, the Great Machine was recovering from serious energy drain (I have always imagined time-travel to be a horribly energy-consuming activity).
Alternatively, perhaps Draal had "turned off his mobile phone" firmly enough to receive no alert of things happening outside.
If the machine had no serious intellect of its own... it might have been unable to independently recognize stuff, override Draal's "privacy mode" or choose another person to notify.
Capability to destroy moderate-strength targets in immediate proximity... even the Earth defense grid accomplishes that. Absolutely required, lest anyone drop in without invitation.
Meanwhile, it has little offensive capability... it cannot go and start making surprise visits elsewhere.
---------
Perhaps the only good question... why did Draal not recognize either the purpose or volatility of the Thirdspace artifact?
Had recognition been possible, I would presume Draal to have demanded thousandfold care (such as multiple-redundant preparations for immediate destruction of the artifact, in the event that it try something) or destroying the object first (learning from pieces later).
Then again, perhaps by that time, the Great Machine was recovering from serious energy drain (I have always imagined time-travel to be a horribly energy-consuming activity).
Alternatively, perhaps Draal had "turned off his mobile phone" firmly enough to receive no alert of things happening outside.
If the machine had no serious intellect of its own... it might have been unable to independently recognize stuff, override Draal's "privacy mode" or choose another person to notify.
vacantlook
Super Moderator
Another possible reason to Draal's lack of response to the Thirdspace artifact could lie in the Thirdspace aliens themselves. We're shown that they're able to do some serious telepathic influence on various individuals on the station, perhaps they were responsible in some way in creating some form of interference that kept Draal from being able to become mentally aware of the artifact's presence in the local space area. We had been shown that some telepathic ability (Ivanova) could prompt specialized uses of the Great Machine (acquiring the recording of the admission of Clark's involvement in Santiago's assassination, which Draal said Ivanova shouldn't have been able to do (I always took her being able to do it to be dependent upon her partial telepathy and Draal not knowing of her latent powers)). If all this is true and the Great Machine's workings can be affected by telepathic manipulation, then the Thirdspace aliens could possibly have had some reason behind Draal's lack of response.
sleepy_shadow
Regular
Who knows? But it seems the artifact was delievered... still in a powerless state. It certainly had no visible effect on the ships which towed it -- although it might have messed with minds to its fullest ability, simply keeping a low profile.
Changing the behaviour of its own escort... might have been contrary to its rules of behaviour. A handful of ships were insufficient to sustain its primary function -- but might deliver it to a location where it could be sustained. When messed with, some ships might escape, revealing its approximate level of threat (which might bring trouble).
On the assumption that the Great Machine had even the crudest artificial intellect... upon the delivery of the passive artifact, the machine would have probably noticed it (even without Draal knowing). I would imagine that upon finding something of surprising profile, the machine would alert its custodian *quicker* than an unprepared intruder could tamper with it.
(Especially an intruder who seemed generally challenged with the operation of Normalspace computers, instead preferring to crack biological minds.)
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However, if the artifact really had telepathic powers from early on... it could have used them covertly -- to much greater extent than presented.
It might have convinced its finders -- "You have found something benign and important. You are not cautious. You wish to deliver it directly to your most central base."
It might have convinced Draal. -- "You have more important business. You are forgetting that alert. You don't want to engage whatever independent computer-based intellect your machine contains."
And it might have convinced many others. "No. You don't trust robotic guidance enough. You don't want to evacuate crew from several Minbari cruisers, and tell their computers to make a long acceleration run before... no, better forget that thought."
------
After all, the artifact seemed to have a quite narrow scale of targets -- biological mind and certain types of power supply (perhaps not supply, but large enough power grid) within relatively close limits of distance.
It seemed incapable of intruding into computer systems, or having notable effect on the power supplies in single-person fighters (or to my recollection, any Minbari ships regardless of size).
Its technology was probably tuned and focused on whatever technologies Vorlons were using during their civil war (or if it got really messy, the Thirdspace-Milky Way Incident which never grew to a Thirdspace-Normalspace war).
A ship with unconventional sources of power and remote guidance or non-biological intellect might have been outright deadly against it.
-------
On other thoughts, perhaps "Thirdspace" simply had plot holes.
Changing the behaviour of its own escort... might have been contrary to its rules of behaviour. A handful of ships were insufficient to sustain its primary function -- but might deliver it to a location where it could be sustained. When messed with, some ships might escape, revealing its approximate level of threat (which might bring trouble).
On the assumption that the Great Machine had even the crudest artificial intellect... upon the delivery of the passive artifact, the machine would have probably noticed it (even without Draal knowing). I would imagine that upon finding something of surprising profile, the machine would alert its custodian *quicker* than an unprepared intruder could tamper with it.
(Especially an intruder who seemed generally challenged with the operation of Normalspace computers, instead preferring to crack biological minds.)
-------
However, if the artifact really had telepathic powers from early on... it could have used them covertly -- to much greater extent than presented.
It might have convinced its finders -- "You have found something benign and important. You are not cautious. You wish to deliver it directly to your most central base."
It might have convinced Draal. -- "You have more important business. You are forgetting that alert. You don't want to engage whatever independent computer-based intellect your machine contains."
And it might have convinced many others. "No. You don't trust robotic guidance enough. You don't want to evacuate crew from several Minbari cruisers, and tell their computers to make a long acceleration run before... no, better forget that thought."
------
After all, the artifact seemed to have a quite narrow scale of targets -- biological mind and certain types of power supply (perhaps not supply, but large enough power grid) within relatively close limits of distance.
It seemed incapable of intruding into computer systems, or having notable effect on the power supplies in single-person fighters (or to my recollection, any Minbari ships regardless of size).
Its technology was probably tuned and focused on whatever technologies Vorlons were using during their civil war (or if it got really messy, the Thirdspace-Milky Way Incident which never grew to a Thirdspace-Normalspace war).
A ship with unconventional sources of power and remote guidance or non-biological intellect might have been outright deadly against it.
-------
On other thoughts, perhaps "Thirdspace" simply had plot holes.
