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Dredging up an old debate...

M

Mbio

Member
...about Lady Morella's prophecy of Londo's destiny. I'm new here, but I've been a B5 fan for years.

Her quote is:
"You still have three opportunities to avoid the fire that waits for you at the end of your journey. You've already wasted two others. You must save the eye that does not see. You must not kill the one who is already dead. And at the last, you must surrender yourself to your greatest fear, knowing that it will destroy you. Now, IF YOU FAIL ALL THE OTHERS, that is your final chance for redemption."

So, if Sheridan is "the one who is already dead," then Londo never has to surrender himself to his greatest fear, since he never kills Sheridan. In light of this, I like to think of Morden as the man who is already dead, instead of Sheridan.

The eye that does not see is G'Kar's. JMS is even quoted as saying: "Yeah...would've been nice if Londo had at least tried to do something about the EYE THAT DID NOT SEE Cartagia's splendor...."

Because he fails these two oppurtunities, he must surrender himself to his greatest fear. Whether this greatest fear is accepting his Keeper, becoming emperor, asking G'Kar to kill him, or something else, I'm not sure. However, I am pretty sure about his other two oppurtunities to avoid his fate, as Morella indicates he will fail them both.

I know this has been debated a lot (I've dug up the other threads), but I decided to bring it back to the forefront. Thoughts? Objections?
 
Yes, he didn't kill Sheridan, but, the Keeper woke up, in time to ensure Sheridan was killed, if G'kar and Londo hadn't killed each other, so it still works.

I can't be positive, but, I remember someone pointing to JMS saying Morden was not the one referred to.
 
From jms...

Link

Meryl Yourish <103470.2703@compuserve.com> asks:
> Was Lorien the man in between?
> Was Sheridan the man in between?
> Was Justin the man in between?
> Okay, if you won't answer those three, then will you answer the
> following? Was Refa the one who was already dead?

Refa was never already dead, so it can't be him. Dead is dead,
and the only one who fits that description would be Sheridan.

jms
Click to expand...
 
Well that complicates things. Something doesn't make sense. Londo must never have to surrender himself to his greatest fear, since he never kills Sheridan, and Lady Morella says that ONLY when he's failed the remaining two does he have to surrender himself to his greatest fear.
Either the last part of the prophecy is a red herring, or Morden is the man who is already dead. Or am I completely missing something?

Or, maybe JMS answered both questions in that response. Maybe he's saying the only one who fits the description of "the man in between" is Sheridan. I know grammatically the "that" in the sentence refers to "dead" eariler in the sentence, but maybe JMS is trying to be sneaky...
 
since he never kills Sheridan, and Lady Morella says that ONLY when he's failed the remaining two does he have to surrender himself to his greatest fear.
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But he would have killed Sheridan had he not surrendered to his fear and let G'kar kill him. The Keeper was nearly awake, and once the Keeper found out he was trying to free Sherdian, Sheridan and Delenn would be killed. It was the inevitable outcome; the actions that Londo had done to try to save Sheridan (the drinking, the personal guard escorting Sheridan and Delenn out the backway, the secret shuttle) ultimately were all failed actions. That Sheridan ended up not being killed was just a side-effect (and motivation) behind the third option of surrendering.
 
That makes sense, although I still don't think it meshes all that well with the prophecy.
Do you agree about the bit about G'Kar's eye though?
 
Justin is the man in between. That's why he calls himself "a sort of middle man, if you will" or some such thing that couldn't make that part more obvious.

Mbio, you are assuming that Londo will only fulfilll one of Morella's prophecies. That is unnecessary. By fulfilling the one (surrendering to the greatest fear), he fulfilled another (not killing the man who was already dead).

Either way, we don't even know if that was his greatest fear, or whatever. Prohecies are vague. For this story, they're more like guiding markers, or even pointless curiosities. Unless a prophecy is something specific like "you will have to let G'Kar strangle you in order to save Sheridan and Dellenn from your Keepr in 2278" then you can't treat it as absolute.
 
Yes, G'Kar' Eye (Not the poster) couldn't see (Cartagia's Greatness), per JMS.

If Sheridan and Delenn would've been further away, the Keeper couldn't have made Londo kill "The man who is already dead". But, since they were still not off the planet, the Keeper woke up, and would've had Sheridan killed. Therefore, Londo failed in not killing the Man who was already dead. So, Londo had to surrender to his greatest fear, to prevent the Man who was already dead, thereby redeeming his soul. His final chance falls back to fixing his second failure.

Now, what exactly that greatest fear is, may still be up for debate. I see it as one of the following:
1. Londo has always dreamed of, and feared a Narn (G'kar he realized once he met him) would kill him, while he was wearing Emperor's clothes.
2. By allowing himself to be killed by G'Kar, Londo's greatest fear was realized, because he would no longer be there for his people, to try and save them, he had to rely upon someone else to save his people and set them on the right track.
3. Dying in general.
 
Justin is the man in between. That's why he calls himself "a sort of middle man, if you will" or some such thing that couldn't make that part more obvious.
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I've always been kind of stuck between Justin being the one "in between" because of his "middle-man" line and Lorien being the one "in between" because of Sheridan finding Lorien when he's stuck in the last second of his life (between tick and tock).
 
Some have said Sheridanbecomes the man in between, between the Vorlons and Shadows, and rejecting both. The man in between is "looking for him" perhaps in the sense that the Shadows are looking to turn him to their side, Sheridan will then understand both races, and he will decide to reject both of them.
I'm not sure what I think of this one. Justin and Lorien are much more obvious and straight-forward candidates.
 
It's difficult for me to accept Sheridan as the man in between, because, how can the man in between be looking for Sheridan, if Sheridan is the man in between? It works the other way round though, if Sheridan is looking for the man in between (as in finding himself).

Justin, I think is a Red Herring, because he only accomodates the Shadow side of things, not the Vorlon side of things.

Therefore, I vote for Lorien as the Man in Between (Tick and Tock) and in between the Vorlons and Shadows.
 
In that episode with Justin, didn't they recap the dream sequence? Between that and Justin's line, I'm seriously surprise there is even a debate on this issue.
 
In that episode with Justin, didn't they recap the dream sequence? Between that and Justin's line, I'm seriously surprise there is even a debate on this issue.
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Well, yea, when you put it like that. ;)

Did they recap the dream sequence in that ep? I had forgotten about that. So much for it being a red herring, LOL.
 
The dream sequence was recapped in the episode in which Anna showed up at the very tail end of. The episode afterward we encounter Justin and the season ends. And then season four begins and we encounter Lorien. Even with it being recapped, it's still in a position in the storytelling that it could be seen as being setup for both.
 
The dream sequence was recapped in the episode in which Anna showed up at the very tail end of. The episode afterward we encounter Justin and the season ends. And then season four begins and we encounter Lorien. Even with it being recapped, it's still in a position in the storytelling that it could be seen as being setup for both.
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Thanks VL. Now I can go back to believing Justin was a Red Herring, and Lorien was the "Man in between", because he was in between both, and Justin was only "in between" Sheridan and the Shadows. Since Sheridan didn't pick the Vorlons, it makes no sense to me to that a Shadow Centric encounter, accomodates "in Between" for Sheridan.
 
In that episode with Justin, didn't they recap the dream sequence? Between that and Justin's line, I'm seriously surprise there is even a debate on this issue.
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As am I.

It is true, however, that both Justin and Lorien were waiting for Sheridan, but take note that Justin's wait for Sheridan was a shallow, opportunistic pause.

Though factual that Justin does introduce himself as "a sort of middle man, and the name is Justin," Justin is not the man that is meant by Kosh [as Garibaldi] in his dream. The truth is when Kosh sent the dream to Sheridan in the middle of 2259, ("All Alone in the Night") Sheridan was completely innocuous to the Shadows. No one in Z'Ha'Dum knew Sheridan's name, nor did they care -- not even Justin.
It was only later that Sheridan grew into a force worth the Shadows' recognition. "In the Shadow of Z'Ha'Dum," "The Fall of Night," "Matters of Honor," and virtually episode in the final trimester of Season 3 warranted certain notoriety among the Shadows.
Justin was just a pawn for the Shadows. A sort of middle man, yes, but little more than a middle man who acted as liasion between the Shadows and the Humans living on Z'Ha'Dum. He might handle "all the decisions that happen transparently around us," but the "different department" he served under was the department that sold those transparent decisions. He had no power to create the things that happened transparently around Z'Ha'Dum and the universe, he only made the acceptance of the Shadows' policies a little easier to swallow for the Human hearts that had to live with it day to day.
Justin was a man in the middle in the lowest and least powerful way.

"The man in the middle is searching for you." Kosh says to Sheridan via Garibalidi in the dream sequence. Sure, Justin searched, but not on the level that would have brought Kosh interest, nor had that search occured in that moment in time.

Lorien's search for Sheridan lasted lifetimes. Lorien waited eons as he searched for the first person that would finally travel to Z'Ha'Dum. It was a search that started long, long before the year 2259, and it was a search that most definitely had the attention of Kosh.
"Jump. Jump now!" Kosh commanded Sheridan. He knew Lorien was waiting for below. He knew, because Lorien was the one Kosh referred to in the dream he sent to Sheridan. Kosh had pushed Sheridan to go to Z'Ha'Dum and confront Lorien ever since the end of "In the Shadow of Z'Ha'Dum," where he agreed to teach Sheridan how to fight legends, how to fight Shadows. Lorien even admits the idea that Kosh likely had knowledge of Lorien's location.

"The man in the middle is searching for you." Garibaldi says with a dove perched on his shoulder.

Well, the man was most definitely Lorien. The discovery of Lorien did bring about a sort of peace that the dove represents as it drove the endless Great Wars away from our galaxy. Peace within our universe reigned as we were no longer being torn apart by ancient demigods.

Man in the middle = Lorien
 
Hate to be "race centric', but Lorien was NOT a man! Or a HuMan! And unless Sheridan was the most powerful and last being, he was not "the equal and opposite" of Lorien. Maybe it was Clarke? :devil:
 
Hate to be "race centric', but Lorien was NOT a man! Or a HuMan! And unless Sheridan was the most powerful and last being, he was not "the equal and opposite" of Lorien.
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Just because the "you are the hand" and the "the man in between is searching for you" comments are made in close proximity in Sheridan's dream does not mean that both comments are talking about the same person. I believe Delenn's thinking regarding the hand comment is spot on in that Sheridan is the hand on one side, Justin is the hand on the other side -- equal and opposite and all that. But the man in between does refer to Lorien; Enlightened_GKar has provided an excellent analysis of the issue. Why in the world would the use of the word "man" in a dream invalidate Lorien? Since when are dreams politically correct?
 
It's difficult for me to accept Sheridan as the man in between, because, how can the man in between be looking for Sheridan, if Sheridan is the man in between? It works the other way round though, if Sheridan is looking for the man in between (as in finding himself).


Justin, I think is a Red Herring, because he only accomodates the Shadow side of things, not the Vorlon side of things.

Therefore, I vote for Lorien as the Man in Between (Tick and Tock) and in between the Vorlons and Shadows.
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Justin isn't a total red herring. He is Sheridan's equal and opposite number, so he fulfills part of the vision. However he is not in between the diametrically opposed viewpoints. As far as we know Kosh (who gave the vision) did not know Justin, but we know he likely met Lorien once.

I think they both figure in the grand scheme of things. Kosh knew that Sheridan's opposite number (whoever) was looking for him, but he also knew that Lorien was looking for the right person in the right place at the right time.
 
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