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DVD Extras

Okay, pillowrock, you have convinced me to re-watch Grail just to see if my memory was defective and maybe there was something "in charactor" to the charactors, despite what I remember. After all, I make the same claim about the otherwise wretched Believers and the challenge is fair.

I will let you know.
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Grail has some good points.

<ul type="square">
[*]David Warner/Aldous Gajic
[*]Tom Booker/Jinxo. Jinxo's redemption.
[*]William Sanderson/Deuce
[*]the series' first CGI alien (the na'ka'leen feeder*)
[*]John Flinn/Mr. Flinn (later shows up in Season Three's Convictions as "Obnoxious Man." From the Lurker's Guide synopses, "Lennier is afflicted with a garrulous human neighbor while waiting in reception for Delenn to disembark.")
[*]The Londo and Vir reactions to the feeder being on station.
[/list]

One bad part is the two caste, Minbari discontinuity, by JMS (Warrior & Religious, but no Worker).


* na'ka'leen feeder

JMS (from The Lurker's Guide):

"There were no asymmetrical aliens in the pilot, but there's a real dandy coming your way in the B5 episode 'Grail.' You want nonhumanoid aliens, you *got* non-humanoid aliens.... "

"Yeah, the Feeder is pretty cool; wrapped up Foundation's rendering machines for the better part of a week just to pull that one off."

Fan: 'Yeah, it was a bit of *really* perverse humor...Jinxo survives all five Babylon stations, and leaves thinking all is well...on a ship named the Marie Celeste?'
JMS: "We're a sick bunch, but we're fun."

Fan: '...what company in their right mind would name one of their ships the "Marie Celeste'?
JMS: "Dunno, but I'd bet good money that whoever it is, it's an Australian company. Nothing frightens those people; they're fearless."


After Believers, I wanted to see if I could throw the gloppit egg hard enough at JMS for it to go "SPLAT!" :p Sure, it may have had a non-Trek ending, but I still hated it.
 
Are you sure that Believers isn't a DS9 episode? :LOL:
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People may or may not like the Episode Believers, but you could NEVER, EVER accuse it of being a Trek episode (even DS9).

If it was Star Trek, as you pointed out, the kid would have lived. The great Dr Franklin would have proven that the 1000 year old religious beliefs of that race were nothing but silly supersitition, and that the great wise human race had it correct, and the operation was OK.

THAT would have been a Trek episode.

Instead it was one of the strongest episodes of Season 1 because EVERYONE was wrong, except Sinclair who protected the integrety of the station by siding with allowing them to honor their beliefs.

Grail is, indeed, the worst episode imo. :)
 
People may or may not like the Episode Believers, but you could NEVER, EVER accuse it of being a Trek episode (even DS9).

If it was Star Trek, as you pointed out, the kid would have lived.
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The funny part about all this Trek/not-Trek stuff with "Believers" is that it was written by David ("The Trouble with Tribbles") Gerrold, the only SF writer to have made his very first professional sale of any kind to Trek (he'd never even had a short story published before selling his outline and script for "Tribbles") the man who invented the "away team" concept for TNG and who wrote the first season TNG Writer's Guide for Gene R. Nobody knows better than Gerrold that he could never have done the ending for "Believers" on any Trek show.

And IMHO "Infection" is the only B5 script that could actually have been shot for Trek with just a few name and technology changes. All the others, even "TKO" and "Grail" had a dinstinctly B5 twist or subplot that raised them above the rest. Of course, even "Infection" had un-Trek moments like Garibaldi's conversation with Sinclair, Sinclair's foreshadowing of the penultimate phase of the entire Vorlon-Shadow Conflict ("When you become obsessed with the enemy, you become the enemy") and the rather chilling arrival of the Bioweapons division to confiscate the Ikarran artificats. And "Infection" has more excuse than most episodes for being weak, as it was the first script written after the series was picked up and the first one shot. Everybody, including JMS, was trying to get a handle on the format, the characters and the story.

The problem with "Infection" from a writing POV is that it was the FIRST one written for this season, and I was having a hard time finding the "fingerprints" of the characters again after so much time had passed after the pilot (it was nearly a year between the revising/ shooting of the pilot, and the writing of the first series script). - jms

I once wrote a quite lengthy, impassioned and convincing defense of "Grail" on the WB board, but I'm too busy to dig it up and too lazy to recreate it. Suffice it to say that those of you who hate the episode are just plain wrong. :)

("...And he made a very satisfying THUMP!")

Regards,

Joe
 
Grail is, indeed, the worst episode imo. :)
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(I found my post from the WB board. :))

And what redeeming feature is there in "Grail", Joe?

Are you kidding?

1. The alien abduction lawsuit opening that JMS added to Christy Marx's script.

2. Establishing the Minbari attitude towards "True Seekers" and Delenn's placing Sinclair in that category - an insight into their still odd relationship.

3. The over-all parallels between Aldous Gajic and Sinclair, who both lost loved ones, were/are consumed with guilt, and later had to find a reason to live. (Which Sinclair hasn't quite.) There are thematic elements of "Grail" that are important for the series if you look past the flaws in the episode.

4. The first detailed explanation of the fates of the first three Babylon stations and the disappearance of the fourth. (We need to be reminded of this mystery from time to time as a set-up for "Babylon Squared" in S1 and later "WWE" in S3)

5. Kosh is asked a question and replies with a single word, "Good." It is one of the scariest things he ever says. And another early hint that the Vorlons aren't necessarily the nice guys we insist on assuming they are.

6. Much foreshadowing:

The Feeder, which Deuce uses to impersonate a Vorlon, looks like a cross between an octopus and a jellyfish except that it isn't transparent.

Garibaldi makes the point that nobody knows what the Vorlons really look like inside their suits.

Well, it turns out they look like a cross between an octopus and a jellyfish except that they are transparent and they glow.

Ivanova's "No boom today, boom tomorrow" speech, which accurately predicts events in "Sleeping in Light".

7. Londo and Vir as Laurel and Hardy (or maybe Reebo and Zooty) hiding from the Feeder. I love it when they get to do comedy.

8. The arrogance of the Religious and Warrior castes. I don't think Lennier's line about there being two castes was a mistake. (In a message posted within a week either side of "Grail's" shooting dates JMS answered a fan's question on the subject by saying that there were three Minbari castes. In other usenet posts he discussed using Middle Ages notion of "those who work, those who pray and those who fight" in creating the Minbari, which also suggests that the three caste idead predates this episode.) Even if it was originally a mistake, it now exists in the story and has to be explained in terms of the story - which it turns out it easily can be. Lennier, like most of the members of the two leading castes, simply forgets that the Worker's exist. There are only two castes of Minbari who would deal with an off-worlder like Aldous, and Lennier is anxious to show that he belongs to the begnin and reasonable one. He doesn't even think to mention the Workers - and Delenn does not correct him, because it is a minor matter compared to making Lennier lose face in front of a guest. But it is a telling moment nonetheless, especially if I'm right about JMS having already established the Worker Caste in his own notes.

See? There is no such thing as a "disposable" B5 episode. Five years, 110 shows, 6 TV movies, a 13 episode spin-off and not a "Spock's Brain" or "Plato's Stepchildren" in the bunch.

:D

Regards,

Joe
 
[Where's the quote where JMS said that? I don't think he was talking about "Grail" but rather the bullet scene from "Grey 17 is Missing."
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It's from the summer 1995 issue of Foundation, the journal of the Science Fiction Foundation. The article was called "Approaching Babylon" and was reprinted in the book "The Babylon File" by Andy Lane.

The exact quote is as follows.

"Have there been disappointments as well as successes?"
Constantly. But few of them have made it onto the screen. The denouement/reveltory scene in "The Long Dark" was nowhere near what I'd hoped for, from a production and effects standpoint. I wouldn't mind if every known copy of "Grail and "Infection" mysteriously vanished and the negatives fell off the end of a pier somewhere. (italics mine)
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[Where's the quote where JMS said that? I don't think he was talking about "Grail" but rather the bullet scene from "Grey 17 is Missing."
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It's from the summer 1995 issue of Foundation, the journal of the Science Fiction Foundation. The article was called "Approaching Babylon" and was reprinted in the book "The Babylon File" by Andy Lane.

The exact quote is as follows.

"Have there been disappointments as well as successes?"
Constantly. But few of them have made it onto the screen. The denouement/reveltory scene in "The Long Dark" was nowhere near what I'd hoped for, from a production and effects standpoint. I wouldn't mind if every known copy of "Grail and "Infection" mysteriously vanished and the negatives fell off the end of a pier somewhere. (italics mine)
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Then, when it comes to Grail and even Infection, JMS IS too hard on himself. If he'd found another way to kill the Zarg in Grey 17 is Missing, that ep. wouldn't have been bad, either.


Now, if JMS updated that quote to say:

I wouldn't mind if every known copy of Babylon 5 - Legend of the Rangers - "To Live and Die in Starlight" mysteriously vanished and the negatives were shot straight into the sun.

...well, I could get behind THAT one. :devil: :devil: :devil:
 
I wouldn't mind if every known copy of Babylon 5 - Legend of the Rangers - "To Live and Die in Starlight" mysteriously vanished and the negatives were shot straight into the sun.
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I think I'm one of the few who actually liked this tv-movie. Sure it wasn't as good as the b5 series, but it was supposed to be a pilot for a new series; do you remember the gathering, don't tell me that was an awesome pilot. I'm sure it would have all made sense if there had been a series, excluding the scream of course, which is just horrible.
 
Suffice it to say that those of you who hate the episode are just plain wrong. :)
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Oh no. I'm right. I do HATE the episode. It makes me cringe throughout. I dont really care what you have to say to defend the merits of it. I still do hate it and its at the bottom of my list. As you quoted me above, it is the worst episode IN MY OPINION. That makes me right, and also makes it something that you simply cannot debate me on or get me to change. I dislike it and thats all there is to really say about it. I fully realize other people feel differently, but to me that one is at the bottom of the pile...
 
As Joe D. said:

See? There is no such thing as a "disposable" B5 episode. Five years, 110 shows, 6 TV movies, a 13 episode spin-off and not a "Spock's Brain" or "Plato's Stepchildren" in the bunch.
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Don't forget about "The Way to Eden" in that list. That episode makes me absolutely ill! Yuck!!
 
I like Grail, TKO, Believers, except for the "gloppit egg" and Grey 17, except for the Zarg. I will admit that they are not the strongest EPs by any means. Infection is the bottom of my list. I kind of have to grit my teeth to watch Illusion of Truth. I'm not saying it's a bad EP, just that I don't enjoy it. I would enjoy watching the Zarg choke to death on gloppit eggs... :eek: :D :eek: ;)

Way To Eden IS pretty awful, with those LA space hippies :rolleyes:. I think that the ST:OS EP I liked least was one where a woman, wife of a chief, wearing what looked like a mideval pointed hat with a tassel, is expecting a baby. Kirk and McCoy are protecting her in a cave. Double ugh. Can't remember the name of that EP. I actually kind of like Spock's Brain. My very favorite Ep is I, Mudd.
 
I think that the ST:OS EP I liked least was one where a woman, wife of a chief, wearing what looked like a mideval pointed hat with a tassel, is expecting a baby. Kirk and McCoy are protecting her in a cave. Double ugh. Can't remember the name of that EP.
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[geek mode]You are probably thinking of Julie Newmar in the episode "Friday's Child." IIRC, Leonard Nimoy and William Shatner both suffer from constant tinnitus (ringing of the ears) because an explosive device went off unexpectedly during the filming of that episode.[/geek mode]
 
I just looked it up, and I believe you're right. Even Julie Newmar couldn't save it. It was written by D. C. Fontana, and directed by Joseph Pevney, so it is suprising it was so bad.
 
It was written by D. C. Fontana, and directed by Joseph Pevney, so it is suprising it was so bad.
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I presume that was supposed to say "written by D. C. Fontana... so it is not suprising it was so bad"? :LOL:
 
Actually, I thought most people agreed that she was one of their best writers. I haven't looked up what other eps she wrote to see if I agree...
 
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